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Dallas Transit Transfer

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Greg Martin on Mon 03 Oct 2016, 11:02 am

Thanks for the reply Sir.  Please excuse my ignorance but isn't Armstrong the one with a odd doppelgänger idea?  If so hand me a grain of salt with that please.. 
 Personally I doubt if the ticket found on Oswald was the same one entered into evidence,  not that ANY thing regarding evidence in the case is a sure thing. In my 17 years Law Enforcement experience I have never seen such shoddy work done.
 Well I have noticed a recent new interest in the younger generation regarding JFK case, for reasons I would rather not post here... Granted the new debate really would make you pull ur hair out if I said why (if you were not aware that is) but hopefully the new crowd will walk away with a new viewpoint, what is that old saying about new ideas can only take hold after the old generation has passed away..

So as a new member, what can I do to help further things along? Any horse left unbeaten?  And again my ignorance but what does it take to get a front/back copy of this transfer ticket from the archives?

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by greg parker on Mon 03 Oct 2016, 3:16 pm

Greg Martin wrote:Thanks for the reply Sir.  Please excuse my ignorance but isn't Armstrong the one with a odd doppelgänger idea?  If so hand me a grain of salt with that please.. 
 Personally I doubt if the ticket found on Oswald was the same one entered into evidence,  not that ANY thing regarding evidence in the case is a sure thing. In my 17 years Law Enforcement experience I have never seen such shoddy work done.
 Well I have noticed a recent new interest in the younger generation regarding JFK case, for reasons I would rather not post here... Granted the new debate really would make you pull ur hair out if I said why (if you were not aware that is) but hopefully the new crowd will walk away with a new viewpoint, what is that old saying about new ideas can only take hold after the old generation has passed away..

So as a new member, what can I do to help further things along? Any horse left unbeaten?  And again my ignorance but what does it take to get a front/back copy of this transfer ticket from the archives?
Yes, that's Armstrong. Salt passed.

Most here believe the same about the ticket. The one in evidence came off McWatters' bus via one of the cops would be our consensus.

I'm game. Don't know anything about any new debate among a younger generation.

What can you do? Greg, it would be great if you could start a thread or two giving your taken on why the investigation was so shoddy in specific areas. The trap for laymen is often in substituting our own perception of "common sense" where we have gaps in knowledge - e.g. in law enforcement procedures. Sometimes that turns into a complete mismatch. 

As for how to obtain a copy of the ticket -- our two experts on that are Terry Martin and Frankie Vegas - maybe one of them can contact you via a PM here?

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Mon 03 Oct 2016, 3:58 pm

Welcome to the forum, Greg. You've come to the right place.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Greg Martin on Tue 04 Oct 2016, 8:37 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Welcome to the forum, Greg. You've come to the right place.
Thank you, I'm glad to be here. I just hope I can find in some way something to bring to the table, it is very hard to find any area of study in this case that hasn't been flogged to death..I just hope you all will tolerate me until something new does break (assuming it ever does)

Regarding this ticket, based on what information I have seen and read, there would be know way this would have ever been allowed in a courtroom in my opinion, If Oswald would have lived.. The non existent evidence collection protocols and chain of custody does not bode well with these items.

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 06 Oct 2016, 6:36 pm


Above is the back of my ticket, it has instructions. shoppers transfer instructions.





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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Vinny on Thu 06 Oct 2016, 7:51 pm

Welcome to ROKC,Greg.

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 07 Oct 2016, 4:50 am

Aloha Mr Martin,

Mr Parker has surmised the company was asked to stop printing instructions on the reverse, as it is very small print.
Possibly the instructions were added as signage inside the bus, although I have not seen such, and or was printed in the newspapers. Perhaps you can find why the instructions are lacking from 004459's reverse.
Perhaps ask Globe or Dallas Trans.
So far we only see a reverse of a transfer that should have written instructions, much like a valet ticket with disclaimers, etc.

Cheers,Ed
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 8:04 pm



William Whaley still pic from French JFK Assassination docu LE DOSSIER KENNEDY from 1966

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Who was watching the bus

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:38 am

When Cecil got to the Majestic Theater he said he had to stop and kill a minute, sounds like a euphemism.
So Cecil answers the call of nature at the theater. He does so as he needs to time his drive by the bus checker.
Cecil would park open the door go inside to use the loo, but, did he take the transfers off the cutter?
Or could have Milton Jones helped himself to one while he was "ALONE" on the bus.

How early was Cecil that day?

I thought about it and think Cecil wasn't trying to get through downtown quickly. The parade was late, he had to know this at the theater chatting with other Transit employees, so the delay may of had Cecil in bind as he would not be allowed to cross Record on Elm due to parade on Houston to Elm.

But Cecil would be having a light load inbound, not having to pick up more than 5 riders coming through town, seems he would shave time at every empty in bound stop from Anita to Lakewood Center to the Elm street Theater.
30 seconds a stop? that would add up. More than 10 minutes.

I had thought Oswald would walk to the Majestic to see a film, only thing being the shoe shopping Marina and Ruth were to do, leads on to believe the shopping and Lee's ride to the Paine's would be one in the same.

I still think Lee was waiting for Marina.
The claim he went and sat next to a pregnant woman or woman with a baby or child is odd.
What new mother goes to see WAR IS HELL?

Okay maybe she thought it would put the baby to sleep, gun fire and explosions, ... hey it was Dallas!!
Anyways the whole ordeal needs a fresh coat of paint as its peeling away.

And the Reed bus photos,

I am pretty sure the last bus is not the Marsalis Bus 1213, but the Beckley Bus.
If the advertisement has not changed between 11/22 and the photos by FBI ... yes I know what are the odds... then that bus has different image or text on its advert signage.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 02 Nov 2016, 9:39 am











Will Fritz's Notes,

First, he is starting the interrogation by asking Lee about a bus ride, this is Saturday 11/23 second interrogation of the day

Secondly, Will says Lee says: he got off the bus after seeing jam.
But if we believe the story Lee was getting on a bus stuck in the middle of an 'intersection'.
He is getting on the bus in a jam... a smart bus rider would likely be asking for a transfer then as the likely hood is one will be exiting if the bus doesn't un-jam itself. Also Lee has just walked past the blocked intersection of Houston and Elm, how was this going to help his escape back through this same intersection?
If he had hopped aboard at that intersection then it would make more sense, or less ridiculous.
Of course the bus did get through this jam and went to Oak Cliff, how long it was delayed is of import.

Third, I can only see it being Hugh Aynesworth to decide Lee took a cab from a bus.
At this second day interrogation I think the Porter Bledsoe call had filtered its way to Fritz's attention to be used to shake Lee's bus ride singular. But before that there was the Odell call which did have a man looking like Oswald getting on and off a bus downtown giving details of the murder.

Fourth, Will says Lee says: "got trans same out of pocket"

Seems this is when the transfer comes into question and change in stories supposedly by Lee would be happening.
Saturday. Not after 4:05 Friday johnny come lately finds of bullets and bus receipts.
Would it be do to the finding of a transfer in the clothing Lee rode the bus home wearing, got changed leaving that useless to him transfer in his pocket, thus explaining Sat why they had found such a bus pass in his clothing at his residence.

"Changed shirts + tr."

Shirts plural, sounds like he changed under shirt as well as outer shirt and his pants
Not a thing about that pesky grey/white/light blue/tan JACKET? Wink

But this discussion centers around a bus pass, in a pocket, then goes to PO boxes, Buell, and the package, back to bus and now a cab, back to where the transfer would likely be located, in his work clothes.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 16 Nov 2016, 9:12 pm

Aloha Greg Martin!
Thanks for the question,

I am giving a talk on the subject and hope to delve into the whole Transfer tale soon.
But for now yes the back of the 004459 transfer was photographed by FBI, not by DPD , was shown supposedly to Cecil at 6:30? then it was sent to DC friday night, and again photographed etc. in the Archives.

No One in Dallas could see that transfer while it was in DC at FBI lab.
Friday night or thereafter. May have been returned with other evidence to DPD but have not seen proof yet.
Before that it was in an envelope marked by Boyd and Sims 4:05pm.
Even Bugliosi has the find at 4:10 pm by Boyd-Sims.
Sims stating he is one whom found transfer in the shirt but can not recall which of the two pockets.
His partner, EL Boyd finds five bullets and they put those in the same envelope as the transfer.  

These are the same guys whom have Oswald wearing his ID bracelet till after 8:55pm!
Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.
Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?
Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?
Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.
Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?
Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top.
Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?
Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. What did they do?
Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.
Mr. BALL.. And what did Barnes do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't know for sure.
Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab.
Mr. BALL. And what did he do?
Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?
Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.
Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Quite extraordinary allowing him to be searched repetitiously where Lee sheds more and more evidence, finally the shirt he is wearing as a jet is flying down a runway and an FBI agent running for its tail... or some such nonsense.
But anyhow.
There is no instructions on that transfer's back pinned on Oswald.
This may be correct but we are only shown a photo copy of the "receipt" for the transfers (or the top transfer 004451) with Cecils badge number 195? on rear. ,
never any other supporting items are entered into the record, even though Cecil brings them and shows the Commissioners how the transfers work those items are not preserved or entered as commission exhibits.
Likely instructions were not printed on ticket backs in the sixties for whatever reason...
But we are not in possession of other supporting evidence.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 3:45 am

Stuart L Reed would be following Lee if Lee took Beckley bus to Jefferson and then walked over to theater. Along the way I could imagine a scenario where Lee saw Reed camera in hand taking photos of him or his transport, wondering who this guy is following him taking pictures.
I could see Lee 'ducking' into the shoe store entry or theater to try and ditch Reed.
A possible scenario. & Thanks to Reed for these photos!

First bus through is Cecil's bus and second bus going through the lane opened up past Market is Beckley 22 and would stop where Lee was said to have gotten on per rumor at the TSBD.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Thu 01 Dec 2016, 11:07 pm

The 30 bus

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 03 Feb 2017, 2:35 am

11/22/63  After that, Curry said, it is known that Oswald descended and left the building on foot.

… Somehow - Curry doesn't know - Oswald reached the Oak Cliff section, across the Trinity River from downtown Dallas.  AP, 1:50 p.m. CST Peggy Simpson


11/23/63  Dallas - The police chief said that as far as the police know, Oswald does not own an automobile.

The police chief said it was still uncertain how Oswald reached the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.

"He left on foot from the building.  Someone said they saw a man pick him up [in a car] but Oswald had a bus transfer slip in his pocket when arrested," Curry said.  AP, 11:17 am CST, Peggy Simpson



11/23/63   Homicide Captain Will Fritz said Oswald had told police he caught a bus when he left the Depository Building, decided the bus was too slow and switched to a taxicab.  He went to his rooming house in Oak Cliff, changed clothing and decided to go to a movie.  3:07 p.m. CST – [Sub for "Somehow ... downtown Dallas"] AP, 3:07 p.m. CST


Curry still had a car story afloat on Saturday and not even the bus transfer appearance itself on Friday would deter him.

Thanks to Bart for showing me this schism in a new light!!!!

First interrogation 2:20pm - 4:05pm  Friday

At 3:07 pm Saturday AP reporters report Fritz's bus and taxi tale.

When was that envelope marked by Boyd and Sims for the bus transfer find??


4:05pm Friday

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 8:59 pm

Whaling On Whaley by Ed Ledoux
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13142746-whaling-on-whaley.html

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 9:02 pm

"he claim he went and sat next to a pregnant woman or woman with a baby or child is odd.
What new mother goes to see WAR IS HELL?

Okay maybe she thought it would put the baby to sleep, gun fire and explosions, ... hey it was Dallas!! "




Buhahahaha that made me spit out some food on my keyboard ha ha ha

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 9:20 pm

The police chief said it was still uncertain how Oswald reached the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.
 
"He left on foot from the building.  Someone said they saw a man pick him up [in a car] but Oswald had a bus transfer slip in his pocket when arrested," Curry said.  AP, 11:17 am CST, Peggy Simpson

 
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 9:50 pm

https://www.giljesus.com/the-cab-ride.html

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 10:53 pm

12/7/63            Dallas - Oswald slipped out of the building and into the frightened crowd.  He worked his way through the milling mob, went a block north, turned right on Pacific Street and walked briskly for six blocks to Griffin Street.
 
It was 12:40 p.m.
 
He tapped on the door of a Marsalis Street bus which was stalled in the traffic. It wasn't a regular stop but the driver, C. J. McWatters, opened the door.  Oswald took the third chair from the front on the right.  He would get a good view of the scene of the crime as the bus passed Houston and Elm.  There were only about five other passengers.
 
The bus inched ahead a block and at 12:44 p.m. the driver of a traffic blocked car jumped out and ran toward the bus.  He wanted to tell somebody, so he told McWatters.
 
"The President's been shot!"
 
Oswald said nothing.  In a moment he stood up, asked the driver for a transfer and got off.  It was 12:46 p.m.
 
He crossed the street and hurried two blocks south to Commerce Street and jumped into a cab parked at the Greyhound Bus Depot.  "Take me to 500 North Beckley," he ordered.
 
Cabbie William Whaley started on a zig-zag course, trying to escape the traffic.  "What the hell you think happened out there?" he said  Whaley hadn't heard.  Oswald didn't tell him.  Neither spoke the rest of the trip.
 

It was 1 p.m.  AP, Jules Loh, 9:39 p.m. CST

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Fri 10 Mar 2017, 9:33 am

Ed's talk with me about the bus transfer, hosted by Rob Clark of the Lone Gunman Podcast.


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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by greg parker on Fri 10 Mar 2017, 12:37 pm

I have to say, I only agree with about 99.8% of it. That's going to disappoint Brian who may take it as a sign you guys are in revolt.

But getting down to the nitty-gritty... and at risk of charges of bias, I also have to say, it was bloody brilliant. The whole thing. Both of you. In fact, may be the most informative AND entertaining JFK podcast ever.

And completely nailed in those last few minutes. The whole story really is a sham and does only hold up if you don't go below the surface. And that's basically from September on...

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Fri 10 Mar 2017, 4:58 pm

Thanks Greg, it was just good fun to do and thanks to Rob for providing the canvas.

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Mar 2017, 11:53 pm

Very very good. Enjoyed it enormously.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 6:33 am

Top notch podcast.
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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

Post by barto on Sat 11 Mar 2017, 7:53 pm

Thanks Mick and Paul.

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Re: Dallas Transit Transfer

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