Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy
 
Randle and his whereabouts Friday morning:
 

 
This report was not followed up until January 21 when Randle was interviewed by Special Agent Warren de Brueys. 
 

 
Notably absent in the report is what time he left Irving that day to drive to Austin, (it is about a 3 hour drive, so the latest he could have left to arrive at 7:00pm is about 4:00pm).
 
Whether he had business to conduct that day in Austin and whom that business was with.
 
A more elaborate reason for having telephoned his brother in Irving (more so than "Business reasons") and what they specifically spoke about
 
And finally what time he arrived home after his flight from Austin.
 
There's just no accounting for Randles movements in any serious way until 7.00 pm Friday evening 22/11/63

That means in reality, there is no accounting for his movements Thursday evening, Thursday night and all of Friday up until 7.00 pm.

Mick Purdy

Where the hell was Willie/Bill/William Randle from Thursday 21/11 evening until Saturday morning 23/11.
Its starting to do my head in

Mick Purdy

How and when did Randle learn that his wife was down at police headquarters?
Marvin? what time?

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

Greg Parker wrote:Colin,

the stepfather? Interesting thought. All we know about him his that he was a violent drunk who Beull avoided at all times when they all lived in Huntsville. The hospital visit on such a day does give pause. Also back in those days (here at least) hospitals had hard and visiting hours which were rigidly applied...yet he appears to have been there several hours, unless I'm mistaken...

Greg,
You say:
All we know about him his that he was a violent drunk who Beull avoided at all times when they all lived in Huntsville.
Where does this come from?

Greg Parker

As a teenager in Huntsville, Mr. Frazier had deftly balanced high school and several part-time jobs while trying to stay out of the way of an abusive, alcoholic stepfather.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com.au/2008/11/oswald-co-worker-no-longer-silent-about.html

Not sure whether Aynesworth got this from interviewing Frazier, or from an FBI doc -- I thought the latter exists, but if it does, I can't relocate it.

Mick Purdy

Wes leaves the TSBD after the assassination as early as 1.00 pm........maybe earlier.
Wes would then be unaccounted for hours after this........
He went directly home from the TSBD, slight detour perhaps?...Oswald with him perhaps?
Friendly lift for Lee to somewhere on his way home?......
Meeting with Bill and Linnie, possibly Ruth too in Irving, after the friendly gesture of giving his good mate a lift.....there's more than enough time.

Mick Purdy
 
According to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6 pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning.
 
She certainly could have been mistaken, she certainly could have misremembered who was driving the car, but does not this give pause!
 
On Nov 22nd at  some time prior to 6.00pm Mrs. Dorothy Roberts the Irving busy body, conveyed to both of the Schneiders William Randle had driven Oswald to work that morning.......
 
She must've either seen Randle's car or recognised him, or both, to know it was he who was driving.
 
It's been suggested that she could have been mistaken about Oswald as the passenger and that it's possible that it was Berry Caster in the vehicle.
 
If that were true we would need to discover what vehicle she saw Randle in because the only vehicle Randle and Caster used was the "pickup Chevy" the car which drove them to Austin on that Friday.
 
I'm leaning toward Robert's observation being accurate. William Randle driving Lee to work.
 
PS: I'm also tipping Dorothy Robert's the Irving busy body knew exactly what car Willie drove.

PPS: And I'm also tipping Ol' Dorothy knew who Oswald was too.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy
 
According to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6 pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning.
 
She certainly could have been mistaken, she certainly could have misremembered who was driving the car, but does not this give pause!
 
On Nov 22nd at  some time prior to 6.00pm Mrs. Dorothy Roberts the Irving busy body, conveyed to both of the Schneiders William Randle had driven Oswald to work that morning.......
 
She must've either seen Randle's car or recognised him, or both, to know it was he who was driving.
 
It's been suggested that she could have been mistaken about Oswald as the passenger and that it's possible that it was Berry Caster in the vehicle.
 
If that were true we would need to discover what vehicle she saw Randle in because the only vehicle Randle and Caster used was the "pickup Chevy" the car which drove them to Austin on that Friday.
 
I'm leaning toward Robert's observation being accurate. William Randle driving Lee to work.
 
PS: I'm also tipping Dorothy Robert's the Irving busy body knew exactly what car Willie drove.

PPS: And I'm also tipping Ol' Dorothy knew who Oswald was too.

Ed Ledoux
 
Mick, didn't they drive the truck from the counter/cabinet shop to Austin.
Makes me think it was a work or company truck, maybe not Willies ride.
It was new, barely a year old 1963 model Chevrolet.
Would you drive your new Chevy to install counters in Austin for your brothers company? I guess if he paid you enough to buy a new Chevy and a car for Linnie!
Are we saying Berry stopped by the Randles early that morning and Willie took him to the shop where they then left in the truck for Austin?
And the neighbors saw this, or at least Mrs. Roberts?
I wonder what Mrs. Roberts saw.
Was it a truck a car, was it something she heard second hand from another neighbor?
Was it Bill and Berry, or Lee and Wes?
 
What did she see? Did she see Willie leave? When? FBI reports never ask the question of Willies whereabouts...
We are a bit late to ask: http://www.murrayorwosky.com/home/index.cfm/obituaries/view/fh_id/11588/id/2559457
Find Marvin's number and I will ask him.

Mick Purdy

Ed,
Agreed.
It was the Chevy pick up which took Caster and Randle to Austin....
In my mind if Roberts is reporting truthfully to the Schneider's then it can only be Randle and Lee or Randle and Caster.
My point being is that if it were the Chevy then Roberts IMO wouldn't taken a second look at the car because it wasn't a vehicle she would have known supposedly.

Maybe grasping at straws here....but I do smell a rodent in there somewhere.

Greg Parker

If it was a work vehicle, it may well be one he did bring home from time to time. It also may have had signage on it. 

If it was the ute (pickup for my US friends), Roberts may well have seen it a number of times in the past. If it carried a passenger, would she assume it was Oswald? I'm not sure she would...

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, or indeed, any supporting evidence, I think documents should be taken at face value - albeit with some caution.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

If it was a work vehicle, it may well be one he did bring home from time to time. It also may have had signage on it. 

If it was the ute (pickup for my US friends), Roberts may well have seen it a number of times in the past. If it carried a passenger, would she assume it was Oswald? I'm not sure she would...

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, or indeed, any supporting evidence, I think documents should be taken at face value - albeit with some caution.

Mick Purdy
 
Yes Greg, all valid points.
 
And like you've said in the past, If the Schneider's are accurately reporting what Roberts told them she saw then I think we can assume she didn't make it up out of thin air, so its likely she did see Randle driving with a passenger as she noted....the difficult thing is to know if she actually saw Lee or mistook someone else for him......so photos would be in order.
 
I assumed probably wrongly, that Roberts would not have known the ute from the shop. In my mind Roberts must have seen Randle driving but its whom was with him, that is the question. Roberts must have known Oswald well enough by sight to have mentioned him in the first place. And if she did was it well enough to name him as the passenger with Randle.
 
Gut feel is Roberts, divulged something which is closer to the truth than what we've been told about that drive into work.

Ed Ledoux
 
Buell talks about Lee playing with Diane and Pat Randle around the Oak tree at the Paine's.
Buell says they talked about Lee in a special way that kids do when they have a friend.
He may have been talking with them about Lee that morning at the breakfast table.
 
Page 19
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20055/105-55d.pdf
 
Linnie said the kids don't know nothing about Oswald and could not have seen him as the table is low and window is high.....

My BS meter is going off the chart!

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux
 
Buell talks about Lee playing with Diane and Pat Randle around the Oak tree at the Paine's.
Buell says they talked about Lee in a special way that kids do when they have a friend.
He may have been talking with them about Lee that morning at the breakfast table.
 
Page 19
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20055/105-55d.pdf
 
Linnie said the kids don't know nothing about Oswald and could not have seen him as the table is low and window is high.....

My BS meter is going off the chart!

Mick Purdy
 
Agreed. Linnie stinks to high heaven......
 
You gotta start asking why they were doing this.....
 
I think we're getting closer
 
A great example too of the subtle (LOL) way all of these neighbours went to lengths to distance themselves from one another at various stages with their testimony.....it happens over and over and its there in the record. And yet time and time again we are discovering that they were in fact closer than we've been told.
 
In my mind it seems to be a pattern amongst the Irving lot and there are not too many reasons or explanations for it other than cover-up...IMO


Ed, are you in a position to cite the doc for Buell talking about Lee playing with Diane and Patricia around the Ol' oak tree.....

It could very well be staring me in the face...

Stan Dane

A BWF thought unrelated to the subject of this thread, but I didn't know where to stick it at the moment.
 
I was thinking of how there are no pictures of Jack Dougherty and I don't think we even have his physical description anywhere. I would think the still-living BWF should at least be able to describe what he looked like, no? I mean, if we ever have the chance to ask him more questions.

Pardon the intrusion here.

Barto

Hi Stan, did you see this?

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5647.108

I got to this by searching for pix for Jack Edwin Dougherty

Stan Dane wrote:Barto

Hi Stan, did you see this?

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5647.108

I got to this by searching for pix for Jack Edwin Dougherty

Stan Dane

Thanks, Bart.

Yes, I do recall seeing that sometime ago. Perhaps this would be an image we could seek confirmation on from BWF. That is, if we can believe what he says.

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

A BWF thought unrelated to the subject of this thread, but I didn't know where to stick it at the moment.
 
I was thinking of how there are no pictures of Jack Dougherty and I don't think we even have his physical description anywhere. I would think the still-living BWF should at least be able to describe what he looked like, no? I mean, if we ever have the chance to ask him more questions.

Pardon the intrusion here.

Mick Purdy

Agreed!!!!

Lets ask him. 

I have had discussions with people in the media about Wes, and I have asked for their opinion on which path to take regarding Wes and the questions we might have for him. Apart from November 22nd 1963, Wes has been handled as an "untouchable" a reference media outlets give people whom for whatever reason are considered sacrosanct. I sight as example only and on a larger scale, people like say Sir Paul McCartney, the Queen and so on.....I know for a fact that these people are off limits. And that's on a global scale. 

My point is that for whatever reason/s Wes at least in the States has become one of the "untouchables". there is no easy access to him. And when he has become accessible in the past he has been wrapped in cotton wool and surrounded by minders.

And I suspect for what its worth, not many media outlets in the States want to "go after" him. He has become a beacon of light for both sides of the case and in many respects that's the problem......its confused the issue totally. I suspect no body wants to be that guy. The one to carve up the aging lovable rambler who by coincidence just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time....(you know what I mean)

That's why after discussions with media people here in Oz, they (to a person) suggest the only way forward is to harass him, "door stop him" catch him completely off guard. Now that calls for balls. Because anyone who does this would be caught in an avalanche of controversy.....

I think some one from Australia to ask questions of Wes is a good option, for that matter anyone other than a local (USA)

In my mind a sit down Interview would be preferable to the above, but one where the ground rules are clearly understood and where nothing is "off limits".

End of Rant

Stan Dane wrote:Barto

Hi Stan, did you see this?

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5647.108

I got to this by searching for pix for Jack Edwin Dougherty

Mick Purdy

Thanks Bart,

Certainly on first glance or glimpse (LOL)  it looks a lot like Lovelady. But who knows.

Mick Purdy

Buell and the late night return to the DPD.
 
It’s intrigued me for ages as to why a radio call to the police car carrying Wes home or back to the hospital to collect his car from the DPD after questioning the night of the 22nd was made. I know there’s talk of a polygraph test, even documents suggesting that’s why he returned to headquarters on Fritz’s orders and that could be the simple answer and the end of the matter.
 
But is it possible once again we have a smoke screen, this time involving a polygraph test. Something sure as hell happened between the time he was being released and driven back home and that radio call. What was so seriously out of order for Fritz or whoever it was, to demand his return.

I’m thinking if not for a polygraph test then it’s possible he was being returned for a bit of good old fashioned coercion, no test, no hook up, no wires. Plain old fashioned Texas DPD thuggery.

Why?

Maybe, they had worked out that there were problems with Wes’s story aka the morning drive, maybe they’d heard about Dorothy Roberts claim, maybe they’d heard about Willie Randle too.
Maybe they’d also worked out through Adamcik that Linnie knew about some paper sack way before it was publicised on radio or TV.
Maybe they’d discovered that nobody had seen a paper sack with Oswald that morning other than Wes and his sister.
Maybe Wes’s tale for his whereabouts after the shots were fired was more than a little sketchy.
Maybe, they’d learned also that his name was absent from the TSBD list from that afternoon.
Maybe they knew that Wes was having a hard time accounting for what he did at work that day.
Maybe they suspected Wes was not with Oswald that morning.
Maybe they’d heard that nobody had seen Wes and Oswald together in the carpark that morning.
Maybe they suspected Wes had driven Lee somewhere after the shots were fired too. Maybe driven him to an alley somewhere and then driven him to the Theatre.
Maybe they suspected Wes was up to his neck in this and gave him an out……..

A lot of Maybe’s and what if’s but you just never know.

Mick Purdy

Frazier’s lies for his whereabouts immediately after the shooting and beyond.
 
As time has passed and Frazier has recounted his movements to the media over the years about what he did after the shots rang out it has become very clear that he has lied at various times about what he actually did do.
In fact his memory has failed him many times when it comes to anything he did from the time he stood along with fellow employees on the TSBD steps watching the president’s parade.
He is more than vague about who was there on the steps with him at that time, he is even more hazy about what he did once he had left those steps, and after that he cannot remember whether he went immediately home or to the hospital to visit his stepfather. His timelines on any version he has offered is always out.
There are many instances of his lying, too numerous to mention here in one post with regards to his movements post assassination.

We must ask ourselves why did he lie about what should have been an innocent afternoon spent with his Stepfather in hospital. For most of the 51 years since that day Frazier has recalled he went straight to the hospital somewhere between 1-2 pm. According to early reports from Frazier himself that’s simply not true.
And thanks to some fantastic research on this forum we now know Frazier also lied about what time he left the TSBD. It has been confirmed he was not on the roll call sheet at the building. This is startling evidence which suggests he could have left the building any time after the shots were fired.

It’s completely possible IMO that Wes offered Lee a lift…………and they left together, crossed that carpark and hopped into Wes’s car and left the scene.
That certainly would account for Wes’s reticence to talk about anything truthfully about what took place following the assassination for the past 51 years.
If this were true, it also suggests Frazier was involved as a foot soldier of sorts in that he was part of the plan to get Oswald to a destination after the event.

Could it be that once Frazier had dropped Lee off, wherever that might be, Frazier went straight home and met with the troops and they in turn phoned through their concerns about the Lone Nut to the DPD, location and all.

Terry Martin

Yes, Mick, your hypothesis has more legs than Frazier's version.

Frazier could conceivably entered the building, gone downstairs to "finish his lunch", mess some with the electrical panel, the head out the back door to get in his car as fast as possible.

I am constantly amazed at what is being discovered by this group. It's a shame we were not all together some fifty years ago, then we would not be doing this now.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux
 
Buell talks about Lee playing with Diane and Pat Randle around the Oak tree at the Paine's.
Buell says they talked about Lee in a special way that kids do when they have a friend.
He may have been talking with them about Lee that morning at the breakfast table.
 
Page 19
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20055/105-55d.pdf
 
Linnie said the kids don't know nothing about Oswald and could not have seen him as the table is low and window is high.....

My BS meter is going off the chart!

Mick Purdy
 
Agreed. Linnie stinks to high heaven......
 
You gotta start asking why they were doing this.....
 
I think we're getting closer
 
A great example too of the subtle (LOL) way all of these neighbours went to lengths to distance themselves from one another at various stages with their testimony.....it happens over and over and its there in the record. And yet time and time again we are discovering that they were in fact closer than we've been told.
 
In my mind it seems to be a pattern amongst the Irving lot and there are not too many reasons or explanations for it other than cover-up...IMO


Ed, are you in a position to cite the doc for Buell talking about Lee playing with Diane and Patricia around the Ol' oak tree.....

It could very well be staring me in the face...

Ed Ledoux

Sure Mick!

@16:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAh1pGZiLxE

@ 9:00
Also he says that there was a PA system in the building and the manager, Mr. Truly could summon you to his office by using the PA system...

This has all sorts of questions surrounding it. Why not call for everyone to come down or up to Mr Truly's office for roll call on 11/22.

Can you think of other reasons or instances that the PA could have been used but wasn't or may have been used?

Mick Purdy

Cheers Ed,

Is it just me or does Wes just keep on giving...

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux
 
Buell talks about Lee playing with Diane and Pat Randle around the Oak tree at the Paine's.
Buell says they talked about Lee in a special way that kids do when they have a friend.
He may have been talking with them about Lee that morning at the breakfast table.
 
Page 19
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20055/105-55d.pdf
 
Linnie said the kids don't know nothing about Oswald and could not have seen him as the table is low and window is high.....

My BS meter is going off the chart!

Mick Purdy
 
Agreed. Linnie stinks to high heaven......
 
You gotta start asking why they were doing this.....
 
I think we're getting closer
 
A great example too of the subtle (LOL) way all of these neighbours went to lengths to distance themselves from one another at various stages with their testimony.....it happens over and over and its there in the record. And yet time and time again we are discovering that they were in fact closer than we've been told.
 
In my mind it seems to be a pattern amongst the Irving lot and there are not too many reasons or explanations for it other than cover-up...IMO


Ed, are you in a position to cite the doc for Buell talking about Lee playing with Diane and Patricia around the Ol' oak tree.....

It could very well be staring me in the face...

Ed Ledoux

Sure Mick!

@16:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAh1pGZiLxE

@ 9:00
Also he says that there was a PA system in the building and the manager, Mr. Truly could summon you to his office by using the PA system...

This has all sorts of questions surrounding it. Why not call for everyone to come down or up to Mr Truly's office for roll call on 11/22.

Can you think of other reasons or instances that the PA could have been used but wasn't or may have been used?

Colin Crow

The story of a "power cut"? Not convinced, just saying. Why not make an announcement like, "we got ya cornered ya dirty rat. Come out with your hands up."

Mick Purdy

Ed, a PA system, that's interesting.
A PA system which wasn't utulised at its most valuable moment....
just sayin'.

Colin, they couldn't make that type of announcement, they had enough chaos to deal with imagine if they had have made your call "come out you dirty rat with your hands up.......
There would have been a stampede. LOL.

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

A BWF thought unrelated to the subject of this thread, but I didn't know where to stick it at the moment.
 
I was thinking of how there are no pictures of Jack Dougherty and I don't think we even have his physical description anywhere. I would think the still-living BWF should at least be able to describe what he looked like, no? I mean, if we ever have the chance to ask him more questions.

Pardon the intrusion here.

Ed Ledoux
 
No worries Stan!
 
Don't you find it funny or odd that the FBI photographs West and Piper because of the sightings of a negro or dark skinned fellow up on the sixth floor. But there was also a white male seen. So does the FBI take a photo of Jack to show witnesses in a photo lineup to see who might have been on 6 and whom that person looked like. Nope.

No we have no description of JD other than the one he himself gives in his FBI statements. Odd, doesn't the FBI usually take biometric data, not accept it. I mean they are in the business of giving a description of the subject. We have JD saying he is a white male 40...and that is it. Thomas Graves found his height of 6'2" and weight of 165 from military enlistment docs.

FBI failed at its duty to get the necessary information, Federal Bureau of Investigation lacked the last word in its title INVESTIGATION.

They instead deferred to Truly. He basically said JD is a retard. So what Mr. Truly, he may have been retarded enough to shoot John F Kennedy. He might have been retarded enough to do the deed and not realize what he did. Maybe he was an idiot savant when it came to assassinations.
 
Exhibit A
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Dougherty_Ex_A.pdf

Exhibit B
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Dougherty_Ex_B.pdf

Exhibit C
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Dougherty_Ex_C.pdf
 
In his WC testimony we learned JD rode the bus. That would have to be the Marsalis Bus 
He would have rode that bus every day, twice a day for 11 years!!!
 
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,5647.60.html

Here we can see Gerda Dunkle's film grab from "3 Shots That Changed America": notice the White Helmeted Motorcycle cop in the back stepping down from a box.


 
How would you get a better view?

Fritz stood on a box, Jack Dougherty stood on a box, and the motorcycle cop is standing on a box. There were no pallets! If the TSBD had pallets they sure as hell would not be replacing the flooring as the boxes would be sitting on pallets. There were no pallets and the boxes sat on the floor, they soaked up the vegetable oil or what ever oil it was on the old floor.

Thus the need to refloor the storage area. No Pallets! They stood on book boxes.
 
Fritz on a box. Do you believe Fritz and Dougherty are 7-8 feet tall? Do you think the motorcycle cop is levitating?
 
Mr. SHELLEY. I would say they are around 22" long, 18" wide, and 20" tall, approximately. (The boxes size fits this scenario.)
 
Jack on a box:


 
Jack is wearing a t-shirt and a v-neck tanish or light colored shirt/sweater over that, and is standing on a box.
 
Do you think Rankin gave the retarded Jack a chance to bone up on commission procedure? (page 23)

http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/dougherty_jack/dougherty_jack.pdf 

Jack doesn't seem to know his job title after 11 years on the job, he says he is an order filler then he is a stock clerk, and Givens called him the foreman. Jack confuses everyone whom questioned him about "working on the floor" ...yes he was working on the 'sixth floor' getting stock, not working on the 'floor'... oy vey! He makes it sound like he was flooring the sixth floor but further Doughteryisms make it apparent he did not do flooring.

Anyways JD goes to the sixth floor after his lunch in the Domino room. Interesting, 12-12:30 he is in the domino room.
He doesn't stay on six, but goes to the fifth floor instead. Why? Did he forget his handcart? A hand truck was found on the sixth floor by the windows. How did he carry the "stock" by hand?

Ball never asked JD what he ate. Funny there is chicken on the bone, not a sandwich, and a hand truck up on six. Funny how JD says Bill Shelley told him that he thought he saw Oswald carrying a fairly good sized package that morning. Of course Bill mentions nothing of the sort in his in his testimony,

Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.
 
Nor any such in his affidavit: http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340559/m1/1/
Also in his affidavit Shelley claims Lee goes for a walk at noon. Shelley said he usually ate his own lunch the lounge (Domino room) yet he ate his lunch in his office (or started to).
 
Funny how JD's original affidavit is not sworn or signed:
 

 
...and the second page  http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339130/m1/3/
 
Same with Bill Shelley's:
 


Note that Shelley said he did not see Lee on the sixth floor. Shelley was charged with not letting anyone off the elevator, so he leaves and goes with officers upstairs. He leaves Jack to watch the elevator. So Jack leaves and goes with the Feds to find Truly....whom did Jack leave in charge of the elevator, Lee Oswald? Seems like a job no one wanted. 
 
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Ed Ledoux

OBTW, I called Marvin Randle and he did not care to give an interview. 

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

OBTW, I called Marvin Randle and he did not care to give an interview. 

Greg Parker

That is in no way shape or form, any surprise whatsoever.

Linnie and Willie never gave interviews either - not to anyone snooping around a conspiracy, anyway.