Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

One might think he protested too much. It is almost as if someone had claimed he fled the scene and he is adamant about NOT having done so.

If he HAD fled, where the heck did he go? (except for maybe downstairs to shut off the power for a moment, head out the back, drive Lee to the movies and then go meet his sis) Nowhere I guess... since he didn't move. Didn't budge. Otherwise someone might think he was guilty of something.

Well, he may not be budging on that story but I sure as hell suspect him of something.

Mick Purdy

Nicely put Terry:

I think Givens has handed us a little nugget by way of his WC testimony.
I think Wes needs to be asked questions sooner rather than later.

Greg Parker

I tend to think BWF was used by his own family - it's just his degree of "wittingness" that I'm unsure of.

It was Shields HSCA testimony that led me to believe LHO had been staying with the Paines all along.  But if you add in the lack of solid evidence that he stayed at N Beckley - the utter absurdity of his alleged use of OH Lee,  the "coincidence" of H lee staying in room "O" along with the lack of any investigation into his supposed daily bus rides to and from work and an entirely different picture starts to emerge.

I know it has been acknowledged a number of times already, but I don't think it can said enough. The work of Ed, Lee and Mick in these areas has been outstanding -- as has the level of moral support and research help from other members.

We can work this out - maybe not fully - but if not, at least damn close.  What I'm really proud of is just the international flavor - GWB never met a Coalition of the Willing like this...

And I think/hope you'll all be surprised by how just well it will all fit together when more pieces are put in place.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

There's very good reason to believe Shanklin's report is indeed accurate by way of Given's WC testimony:
 
Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job.
Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We like work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?
Mr. GIVENS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?
Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?
Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. We were working. on the west end.
Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

I'm pretty darn sure that this is corroborated with Shanklin's report:



I'm inclined to believe, Givens did actually see Lee in the DR at 7.50 am like he stated. Which IMO does indeed put Frazier's walk with Oswald through the carpark in the Fantasy Box.

Now why did Frazier arrive alone at work Friday 22nd Nov. without his driving buddy?

Mick Purdy

And does this not imply that Lee arrived earlier to work than 7.50 am?

It would seem reasonable that if somebody observes another person relaxing reading a newspaper at 7.50 am then it would be a reasonable assumption that the said person was in fact there prior to that observation, say 7.45 am

The more I think about this the more convinced I have become that Givens recollection is accurate and Wes's version is BS.

Ed Ledoux

I had to read through the past few days comments,  and was marking down areas to cover. See that Stan had some of the same thoughts by the time I got through them.
Here goes:
 
Mick about the good reverend,
 
What he just shows up? Linnie went and picked him up I believe.
 
Who called him and why? see above
 
When was a phone call placed to him? Unknown, but she collected him and was back at the house as the DPD were about to take the gun and Wes in.
 
Was he a family friend? Unlikely, he had not been at the congregation long enough IMO.
 
Was the Rev waiting for a call at the local Irving church? That or at his home, where IDK.
 
Just curious!! Keep being curious MICK!!!
 
They take all three in the back of the squad car? where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM.
 
We have one taken @ 9.00pm and another supposedly taken after the poly at around 12.30am
 
How many polygraphs Mick? Just one reallllly long one? Or did he take one, get questioned, and take another to clarify the first? How would we know how many affidavits he filled out? Could the affidavit have been taken before midnight so as to keep the same date e.g. 11/22 rather than spill over into the next day and raise questions about his questioning??
 
Lee

"As soon as the DPD and Irving Police get involved he is placed under suspicion and has a rifle removed from his home. He is taken to City Hall and put under extreme pressure. He gets a clergyman to accompany him. Upon his release from City Hall, and the clergyman departs, they swerve the car around and take him back. He is strapped to a lie-detector and is being threatened with being an accomplice in the murder of the President."
 
I asked and Mick showed they drove all three back to DPD and gave Buell the test and had him fill out another affidavit, one at 9 pm and one at near midnight. Then drove all three back to "The Randles" place. Of course I showed way earlier in the thread that Gus Rose, et al. said they drove back to drop Wes of at Irving Professional center where Wes's car was, and Wes was upset that they had searched his car without permissions.
Then Stovall, if I recall, had this as something they did before bringing Wes down from the hospital room to take him in.
We have four different stories, including McCabe's tale of him arresting BWF and taking him to IPD and then Rose/Stovall collecting him from there. Wes claims it was Rose/Stovall whom arrested him at the hospital...
Something doesn't add up with the arrest and transport details and I don't need a calculator to show this.

Hasan

Amazing thought Hasan!
Applin was how tall?
The reason I ask is if your looking for Wes in a dark theater after going to get popcorn while Wes was, A. Parking the car
B. Taking a leak. C. sneaks out to see what the sirens are.
D. All of the above.
LHO would likely go sit next to the guy he thought was Wes.
Upon seeing it wasn't he would switch seats, maybe work his way back up the aisle till the main attraction started and he would see Wes wasn't back yet, and chose a rear center seat and waited for his buddy.
Why did that Theater Roll Call list disappear? Was Wes on it?
Recall that Wes said about the shots he heard at the TSBD, he said he stood still as to not attract suspicion by running...same in the theater?

Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.

Larry Crafard is a good back door candidate, taken in, held, and told to get the fuck out of town which he does upon release.

Steve Logan

I'll highlight some more areas of contention.
 
"so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he]never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was"

What about LHO and JD, were they different than everybody else?
 
Um he was from Alabama and not an Old Texas boy. Lie #1
 
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
 
So he was talking to Lee on the way to work saying how bad a day it would be for....and he doesn't finish the thought.
He was talking about the Presidents Parade with Lee at some time!! Lie #2
 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
 
He first stated the shots came from across the street. Lie #3
 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any ofit because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
 
If he could not see do to the recessed area, why does he make it sound like he could see down that way but was unable to see over the people lining the street? And if he didn't move as he said then how would he be able to tell that? Lie # 4
 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
 
How would he know the officers were all over if he was in the basement and ate two sandwiches and an apple? Go ahead and try to woof down two sandwiches and some fruit and see if you can do it in two to three minutes. This sounds like Williams and his chicken on the bone sandwich n' soda speed eating... Did Wes see the cops come in and hid in the basement?
 
Mr. BALL - Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.
 
He likely saw the cops come in. Lie #5
 
Mr. BALL - Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?
From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr.Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.
Mr. BALL - You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we have a--
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see--
Mr. BALL - Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.
 
He was in the open area, he was past the bins, he could see the elevators and stairs from the Circled mark. See CE 362 below
Lie #6
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_362.pdf
 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us toshow our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
 
Can anyone point to a hand written list, signed by employees or written by employees??? Did not think so. Lie #7
 
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper in formation where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

He said he did hear LHO was missing etc. lie #8
Cha-cha line doesn't sound plausible. He shows ID but nothing is taken down, he then goes to next cop whom doesn't check the ID but merely asks for and address or whom to contact...yeah! Lie #9

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it.I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.
 
No cha cha line and how did he see employees over here and there if there were book bins in the way, etc. and no line of sight into these areas? Lie # 10
 
Smee

"Does that mean that Givens went upstairs at 08:00, then came back down to the domino room at 08:30? Maybe he forgot his pack of cigarettes?"
 
Smee I think you nailed it!
Only part I have trouble with is where he yells out to BWF.
Would this be a window. Was it he North windows of the TSBD, i.e. the back windows as BWF was walking up to the building alone from the parking spot?
 
Or was Givens at the other warehouse 1917 North Houston across from where BWf parked and saw him alone there, and yelled out either from the dock or an upper window of the four story warehouse on Houston?
A picture of the other warehouse would be most helpful!
 
Terry
 
"Givens got to work at ~ 7:50 and saw Lee already in the Domino Room reading the paper, then went upstairs."
Actually 7:45, he sees LHO reading a paper in the domino room. He went upstairs to go to work and this is not till 8:00 or even 8:30 he goes up to six to do flooring. We can't be sure because Shelley was late, and perhaps he was waiting for instructions that day.
He is never asked if he was at the other warehouse at the time, or in between. He was a floater and did 'everything' so he may have been asking Sheilds if he was needed there.
 
So, when did he look out the back and yell "Where's your rider?"
Would have to be at 8 when BWF got there, if BWF was on time.
Remember Shelley was late, and would not know if Wes was late too, unless Wes came in after Shelley, LHO was already hard at work by the time Shelley arrived, ie after 8 am.
 
Faroe Islander

You are spot on, Lee was in the domino room at lunch, and had been reading a paper in the morning. The FBI tried not get this straight. JD sees him vaguely at approximately 8 am i.e. 7:50. and where would LHO go for the next ten minutes...the domino room!!
By the time Givens testifies he has this to say.
 
Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
 
Did he forget his jacket and had to wear a rain coat which he put in the domino room, not the sixth floor. If his jacket not his raincoat was up on six he would go up get his smokes and com back down for a smoke and wait till 8-ish to start work. Plus the employees put their lunches in the fridge by the Dr Pepper machine in the back lil room under the stairs. Guess Givens liked a warm lunch like Eddie Piper and his radiator special...
Givens could easily missed LHO in the domino room during his smoke sojourn etc., or just went with the WC on this Lie # 11
 
Givens testifies about LHO clothing
"Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.
 
Linnie Mae has him in a White T-Shirt and or a Tan Jacket or Shirt...whom was lying here? Lie # 12
This sounds almost like Lee had gotten to work BEFORE Buell. So, he couldn't have simply missed his ride when Buell "left early" because Lee got there before him. Which must mean Lee was aware the day before that he would need another way in to work. (??) Unless, of course, Givens' original statement is wrong.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=329092
 
In this FBI statement Givens or the FBI, your pick, alludes to working till 11:35 or 11:40 when the boys clearly stated they knocked off early at 11:50 am for lunch.
Did Givens stay in the bathroom for an half hour? Or more likely ten minutes at about the same time as the Arce old man using the potty?

 
Terry

"In the second MFF link, above, also dated 11/23, Wesley says the large department-store type paper sack was large enough to hold a broken down rifle. And his dear sister, LMR says the package was a whopping three feet long by six inches wide."

Hmm that second FBI statement is so paraphrased and could be what the FBI wanted to hear or is a complete lie, ie Lie # 12

"In the first MFF link, above, dated 11/23, it has "Givens said that during the past few days LEE had commented that he rode to work with a boy named WESLEY." Seems there is no mention of it being one day a week either."
Outstanding example Terry of how LHO did ride with Buell!! Bravo Terry, this would be exactly why Givens asks WHERES YOUR RIDER on a Friday morning not a Monday morning!! He had been giving Lee a ride at least daily for the past few days, or all along! Even if LHO did not live at the Paines, BWF could still have picked up Lee on his way into Dallas from where ever it was Lee lived!!!

Excellent job on this Mick and all involved, this fine group of pirates are sailing uncharted waters, kicking ass and taking names.
We are ejecting Warren Commission junk like flotsam and jetsam.
Sail on ye mateys, we will have Wes walking the plank soon enough!

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

Now that Mick has made me question everything I thought I knew or believed about Buell Wesley Frazier - and after looking at various images of the TSBD entrance pre/post assassination for the umpteenth time - there was something about BWF's testimony I couldn't shake out of my mind today (emphasis mine):
 
Mr. BALL - Did you see the President go by?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.
Mr. BALL - You figured it was who?
Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.
Mr. BALL - Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Why so much attention on BWF standing still and not moving? And why talk about who he saw (or didn't see) coming into the building, i.e., police officer(s)? Why was that so important? Something doesn't seem right.

Vanessa

"I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough".

Wow, thanks for this Stan. Who would have taught 19 year old law abiding citizen BWF this? He's either involved with crims or with spooks.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I tend to think BWF was used by his own family - it's just his degree of "wittingness" that I'm unsure of.

It was Shields HSCA testimony that led me to believe LHO had been staying with the Paines all along.  But if you add in the lack of solid evidence that he stayed at N Beckley - the utter absurdity of his alleged use of OH Lee,  the "coincidence" of H lee staying in room "O" along with the lack of any investigation into his supposed daily bus rides to and from work and an entirely different picture starts to emerge.

I know it has been acknowledged a number of times already, but I don't think it can said enough. The work of Ed, Lee and Mick in these areas has been outstanding -- as has the level of moral support and research help from other members.

We can work this out - maybe not fully - but if not, at least damn close.  What I'm really proud of is just the international flavor - GWB never met a Coalition of the Willing like this...

And I think/hope you'll all be surprised by how just well it will all fit together when more pieces are put in place.

Mick Purdy

Thanks Greg for your kind words, but its everyone here who should be thanked couldn't be done without the enormous efforts and assistance of the fantastic bunch here at ROKC.

"Wittingness of Wes" is that a great movie title or what?

That is so true Greg. It's the degree of involvement now, not If or maybe, not was he or wasn't he, no it's to what extent.

I'm with you I just have a gut feeling it's the family who placed him in this position......

In order of complicity in my mind Randle Bill, is #1 for me, with Linnie Mae coming in a close second. Now add to that mix Ruth Michael and possibly Dorothy....Well that was about all that was required IMO.

The question for me too, is did they coerce Wes with some sort of blackmail if he didn't play ball.

The whole move from Huntsville to Irving stinks IMO. Please, Wes gets a job filling orders 4 weeks prior to Lee arriving at the TSBD to do exactly the same job, and then Wes becomes his "shadow" for the duration right up until the shots were fired.

Give me  a break.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

I had to read through the past few days comments,  and was marking down areas to cover. See that Stan had some of the same thoughts by the time I got through them.
Here goes:
 
Mick about the good reverend,
 
What he just shows up? Linnie went and picked him up I believe.
 
Who called him and why? see above
 
When was a phone call placed to him? Unknown, but she collected him and was back at the house as the DPD were about to take the gun and Wes in.
 
Was he a family friend? Unlikely, he had not been at the congregation long enough IMO.
 
Was the Rev waiting for a call at the local Irving church? That or at his home, where IDK.
 
Just curious!! Keep being curious MICK!!!
 
They take all three in the back of the squad car? where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM.
 
We have one taken @ 9.00pm and another supposedly taken after the poly at around 12.30am
 
How many polygraphs Mick? Just one reallllly long one? Or did he take one, get questioned, and take another to clarify the first? How would we know how many affidavits he filled out? Could the affidavit have been taken before midnight so as to keep the same date e.g. 11/22 rather than spill over into the next day and raise questions about his questioning??
 
Lee

"As soon as the DPD and Irving Police get involved he is placed under suspicion and has a rifle removed from his home. He is taken to City Hall and put under extreme pressure. He gets a clergyman to accompany him. Upon his release from City Hall, and the clergyman departs, they swerve the car around and take him back. He is strapped to a lie-detector and is being threatened with being an accomplice in the murder of the President."
 
I asked and Mick showed they drove all three back to DPD and gave Buell the test and had him fill out another affidavit, one at 9 pm and one at near midnight. Then drove all three back to "The Randles" place. Of course I showed way earlier in the thread that Gus Rose, et al. said they drove back to drop Wes of at Irving Professional center where Wes's car was, and Wes was upset that they had searched his car without permissions.
Then Stovall, if I recall, had this as something they did before bringing Wes down from the hospital room to take him in.
We have four different stories, including McCabe's tale of him arresting BWF and taking him to IPD and then Rose/Stovall collecting him from there. Wes claims it was Rose/Stovall whom arrested him at the hospital...
Something doesn't add up with the arrest and transport details and I don't need a calculator to show this.

Hasan

Amazing thought Hasan!
Applin was how tall?
The reason I ask is if your looking for Wes in a dark theater after going to get popcorn while Wes was, A. Parking the car
B. Taking a leak. C. sneaks out to see what the sirens are.
D. All of the above.
LHO would likely go sit next to the guy he thought was Wes.
Upon seeing it wasn't he would switch seats, maybe work his way back up the aisle till the main attraction started and he would see Wes wasn't back yet, and chose a rear center seat and waited for his buddy.
Why did that Theater Roll Call list disappear? Was Wes on it?
Recall that Wes said about the shots he heard at the TSBD, he said he stood still as to not attract suspicion by running...same in the theater?

Mr. FRAZIER - I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.

Larry Crafard is a good back door candidate, taken in, held, and told to get the fuck out of town which he does upon release.

Steve Logan

I'll highlight some more areas of contention.
 
"so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he]never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was"

What about LHO and JD, were they different than everybody else?
 
Um he was from Alabama and not an Old Texas boy. Lie #1
 
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
 
So he was talking to Lee on the way to work saying how bad a day it would be for....and he doesn't finish the thought.
He was talking about the Presidents Parade with Lee at some time!! Lie #2
 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.
 
He first stated the shots came from across the street. Lie #3
 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any ofit because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
 
If he could not see do to the recessed area, why does he make it sound like he could see down that way but was unable to see over the people lining the street? And if he didn't move as he said then how would he be able to tell that? Lie # 4
 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
 
How would he know the officers were all over if he was in the basement and ate two sandwiches and an apple? Go ahead and try to woof down two sandwiches and some fruit and see if you can do it in two to three minutes. This sounds like Williams and his chicken on the bone sandwich n' soda speed eating... Did Wes see the cops come in and hid in the basement?
 
Mr. BALL - Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.
 
He likely saw the cops come in. Lie #5
 
Mr. BALL - Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?
From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr.Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.
Mr. BALL - You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we have a--
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see--
Mr. BALL - Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.
 
He was in the open area, he was past the bins, he could see the elevators and stairs from the Circled mark. See CE 362 below
Lie #6
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_362.pdf
 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us toshow our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
 
Can anyone point to a hand written list, signed by employees or written by employees??? Did not think so. Lie #7
 
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper in formation where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

He said he did hear LHO was missing etc. lie #8
Cha-cha line doesn't sound plausible. He shows ID but nothing is taken down, he then goes to next cop whom doesn't check the ID but merely asks for and address or whom to contact...yeah! Lie #9

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it.I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.
 
No cha cha line and how did he see employees over here and there if there were book bins in the way, etc. and no line of sight into these areas? Lie # 10
 
Smee

"Does that mean that Givens went upstairs at 08:00, then came back down to the domino room at 08:30? Maybe he forgot his pack of cigarettes?"
 
Smee I think you nailed it!
Only part I have trouble with is where he yells out to BWF.
Would this be a window. Was it he North windows of the TSBD, i.e. the back windows as BWF was walking up to the building alone from the parking spot?
 
Or was Givens at the other warehouse 1917 North Houston across from where BWf parked and saw him alone there, and yelled out either from the dock or an upper window of the four story warehouse on Houston?
A picture of the other warehouse would be most helpful!
 
Terry
 
"Givens got to work at ~ 7:50 and saw Lee already in the Domino Room reading the paper, then went upstairs."
Actually 7:45, he sees LHO reading a paper in the domino room. He went upstairs to go to work and this is not till 8:00 or even 8:30 he goes up to six to do flooring. We can't be sure because Shelley was late, and perhaps he was waiting for instructions that day.
He is never asked if he was at the other warehouse at the time, or in between. He was a floater and did 'everything' so he may have been asking Sheilds if he was needed there.
 
So, when did he look out the back and yell "Where's your rider?"
Would have to be at 8 when BWF got there, if BWF was on time.
Remember Shelley was late, and would not know if Wes was late too, unless Wes came in after Shelley, LHO was already hard at work by the time Shelley arrived, ie after 8 am.
 
Faroe Islander

You are spot on, Lee was in the domino room at lunch, and had been reading a paper in the morning. The FBI tried not get this straight. JD sees him vaguely at approximately 8 am i.e. 7:50. and where would LHO go for the next ten minutes...the domino room!!
By the time Givens testifies he has this to say.
 
Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
 
Did he forget his jacket and had to wear a rain coat which he put in the domino room, not the sixth floor. If his jacket not his raincoat was up on six he would go up get his smokes and com back down for a smoke and wait till 8-ish to start work. Plus the employees put their lunches in the fridge by the Dr Pepper machine in the back lil room under the stairs. Guess Givens liked a warm lunch like Eddie Piper and his radiator special...
Givens could easily missed LHO in the domino room during his smoke sojourn etc., or just went with the WC on this Lie # 11
 
Givens testifies about LHO clothing
"Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.
 
Linnie Mae has him in a White T-Shirt and or a Tan Jacket or Shirt...whom was lying here? Lie # 12
This sounds almost like Lee had gotten to work BEFORE Buell. So, he couldn't have simply missed his ride when Buell "left early" because Lee got there before him. Which must mean Lee was aware the day before that he would need another way in to work. (??) Unless, of course, Givens' original statement is wrong.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=329092
 
In this FBI statement Givens or the FBI, your pick, alludes to working till 11:35 or 11:40 when the boys clearly stated they knocked off early at 11:50 am for lunch.
Did Givens stay in the bathroom for an half hour? Or more likely ten minutes at about the same time as the Arce old man using the potty?

 
Terry

"In the second MFF link, above, also dated 11/23, Wesley says the large department-store type paper sack was large enough to hold a broken down rifle. And his dear sister, LMR says the package was a whopping three feet long by six inches wide."

Hmm that second FBI statement is so paraphrased and could be what the FBI wanted to hear or is a complete lie, ie Lie # 12

"In the first MFF link, above, dated 11/23, it has "Givens said that during the past few days LEE had commented that he rode to work with a boy named WESLEY." Seems there is no mention of it being one day a week either."
Outstanding example Terry of how LHO did ride with Buell!! Bravo Terry, this would be exactly why Givens asks WHERES YOUR RIDER on a Friday morning not a Monday morning!! He had been giving Lee a ride at least daily for the past few days, or all along! Even if LHO did not live at the Paines, BWF could still have picked up Lee on his way into Dallas from where ever it was Lee lived!!!

Excellent job on this Mick and all involved, this fine group of pirates are sailing uncharted waters, kicking ass and taking names.
We are ejecting Warren Commission junk like flotsam and jetsam.
Sail on ye mateys, we will have Wes walking the plank soon enough!

Mick Purdy

Ed thanks so much for taking the very obvious lengthy time to have a gander at all of this, I very much appreciate it.

Ed,
I asked and Mick showed they drove all three back to DPD and gave Buell the test and had him fill out another affidavit, one at 9 pm and one at near midnight. Then drove all three back to "The Randles" place. Of course I showed way earlier in the thread that Gus Rose, et al said they drove back to drop Wes of at Irving Professional center where Wes's car was, and Wes was upset that they had searched his car without permissions.

Then Stovall, if I recall, had this as something they did before bringing Wes down from the hospital room to talke him in.

We have four different stories, including McCabes tale of him arresting BWF and taking him to IPD and then Rose/Stovall collecting him from there. Wes claims it was Rose/Stovall whom arrested him at the hospital...

Something doesn't add up with the arrest and transport details and I don't need a calculator to show this.

Hasan,
Amazing thought Hasan!
Applin was how tall?
The reason I ask is if your looking for Wes in a dark theater after going to get popcorn while Wes was, A. Parking the car
B. Taking a leak. C. sneaks out to see what the sirens are.
D. All of the above.

LHO would likely go sit next to the guy he thought was Wes. Upon seeing it wasn't he would switch seats, maybe work his way back up the aisle till the main attraction started and he would see Wes wasn't back yet, and chose a rear center seat and waited for his buddy.

Why did that Theater Roll Call list disappear? Was Wes on it? Recall that Wes said about the shots he heard at the TSBD, he said he stood still as to not attract suspicion by running...same in the theater?

Wes needs questioning!

I believe Wes took Lee to the theatre.....

Mick Purdy

Ed said:
 
We have four different stories, including McCabes tale of him arresting BWF and taking him to IPD and then Rose/Stovall collecting him from there. Wes claims it was Rose/Stovall whom arrested him at the hospital...
Something doesn't add up with the arrest and transport details and I don't need a calculator to show this.

And Wes has lied constantly over the journey about what his movements were immediately after the assassination it's there for all of us to hear and see on record. In my mind that behaviour is in line with covering something up or hiding the true facts.

Terry Martin

Ed, a very interesting point you bring up.

"Actually 7:45, he sees LHO reading a paper in the domino room. He went upstairs to go to work and this is not till 8:00 or even 8:30 he goes up to six to do flooring. We can't be sure because Shelley was late, and perhaps he was waiting for instructions that day."

Shelley was late and it seems Wesley was late. What were they doing, going over their notes for the day's activities?

Shelley and Wesley both on the vestibule and yet neither saw LHO there.

Something is rotten in Dallas, forget the lesser D, Denmark. We have ample clues leading us to Shelley as the big bad apple here and now it looks even more like Wesley was his stooge. Both late, both on the porch with the patsy.

Dallas doesn't stink any better than this.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

Ed, a very interesting point you bring up.

"Actually 7:45, he sees LHO reading a paper in the domino room. He went upstairs to go to work and this is not till 8:00 or even 8:30 he goes up to six to do flooring. We can't be sure because Shelley was late, and perhaps he was waiting for instructions that day."

Shelley was late and it seems Wesley was late. What were they doing, going over their notes for the day's activities?

Shelley and Wesley both on the vestibule and yet neither saw LHO there.

Something is rotten in Dallas, forget the lesser D, Denmark. We have ample clues leading us to Shelley as the big bad apple here and now it looks even more like Wesley was his stooge. Both late, both on the porch with the patsy.

Dallas doesn't stink any better than this.

Mick Purdy

Bingo!
That's the money right there.
Once, twice, SOLD!! As good as gold!
Shelley and Wes. On the stairs together when it mattered with the little commie mongrel just to their right.
The fog is lifting.

Steve Logan

I brought up ol Wes in a thread over a year ago but ended up getting "Bitch Slapped" by Gayle Nix Jackson somewhere on page 2.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9686.0.html

Stan Dane wrote:Steve Logan

I brought up ol Wes in a thread over a year ago but ended up getting "Bitch Slapped" by Gayle Nix Jackson somewhere on page 2.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9686.0.html

Mick Purdy

It matters not Steve, you were on the money......
The woman has obvious ties to people whom were involved. 
Frazier lied and Lee died......
Its time to stop wrapping him in cotton wool IMO.

Stan Dane wrote:Steve Logan

I brought up ol Wes in a thread over a year ago but ended up getting "Bitch Slapped" by Gayle Nix Jackson somewhere on page 2.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9686.0.html

Greg Parker

Gayle is good friends with BWF, so I imagine all of this is difficult for her. I do believe her to be one of the "good guys" and don't envy the situation in which this places her.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Steve Logan

I brought up ol Wes in a thread over a year ago but ended up getting "Bitch Slapped" by Gayle Nix Jackson somewhere on page 2.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,9686.0.html

Greg Parker

Gayle is good friends with BWF, so I imagine all of this is difficult for her. I do believe her to be one of the "good guys" and don't envy the situation in which this places her.

Mick Purdy

I completely understand this predicament.
It's such a dilemma for anybody researching or seeking the truth in this case.
To be respectful!
Every time I post anything here I am only too acutely aware that most of what I'm contending is with regards to a person who is still with us.
And yes he has family and friends. And some of those friends may have been at his side for most of the past 51 years.
It would be hard to watch and hear all the accusations. I know I'd be affected put in the same place.

But we have to be removed IMO, it's important. We have to be at least once removed from this. It's imperative. It's the only way as a group we can hope to get to the bottom of this IMO. 

Unfortunately, collateral damage is a real and present danger.
How on earth could a good friend of Buell's be impartial or unbiased, no matter how balanced they think they are.

And I'm sure at one time or another exactly the same charge could have been leveled at all the railroading and false accusations made of Lee Oswald by certain groups.

I'm sure Gayle Nix Jackson means well and is sincere in her thoughts of Buells accounts of that day 22nd November, but it certainly doesn't mean in any way shape or form that Buell's accounts are a true and accurate reflection of what transpired.

We need to stay strong, focused and courageous if we are to get anywhere near solving some of the mysteries of that eventful day.

just sayin'

In posting this I sincerely trust and hope I've not offended anybody by its content.

Barto

Just wanted to add this, I hope it has not been posted before, if so lemme know and I will del.

But Shelly confirmed Oswald was already at work when he arrived.

Stan Dane wrote:Barto

Just wanted to add this, I hope it has not been posted before, if so lemme know and I will del.

But Shelly confirmed Oswald was already at work when he arrived.

Mick Purdy

Have seen this Bart but thanks for posting as it shows again that the whole story of Oswald that day morphed over time and changed into something quite different in a short few days.....

And interesting too that Oswald according to Shelley in this very early account has Oswald not only already at work but filling in orders at around 8.00 am.

Barto

Yep the whole story reeks, Buell has got a lot to answer for!

Terry Martin

I would imagine that Wesley is a good and kind person, can make and keep friends, and is probably helpful to many people he knows and cares for. And that he does the right thing to care for his family.

I also imagine that is what he was doing in 1963 when he got involved in something that he had to lie about ever since.

No one can understand the demons others carry around and have to struggle with. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people today. It is quite unlikely Wesley is doing anything wrong today except for the occasional added embellishment on his fifty-year old story. Sometimes memory slips.

Gayle wants to protect her friend. Admirable as that is - and we have seen many people protest the innocence of many friends and family members convicted of many crimes - the emotional tie is based on bonds rather than evidence. Just as some people cling to the second floor encounter, it is entirely an emotional thing having nothing to do with the evidence involved.

In Steve's thread, Gayle took umbrage at the attack on Wesley but took great offense in the posters' derogatory opinion of Dallas and Oak Cliff. That is understandable, to defend one's home turf. My grandfather was born and raised in Dallas and once he left home to make his way in life, he never returned to the place he called "the armpit of the world". Perhaps his memories of the place were not as kind as others'.

Emotions aside... and that is something any good investigator must set aside, the evidence does not look kindly on Wes. Regardless of the goodness in his spirit today or the self-justifiable reasons he made the move from Huntsville to Dallas in 1963, the evidence at this moment appears to strongly point to his having been involved in the murder of the President and the framing of the patsy, whom he pretended to befriend. The evidence paints a dark picture of a not-so-good person. But people can change and Wes may have as well, if he is not still pretending, but...

The case cannot be solved through a rosy set of glasses.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

I would imagine that Wesley is a good and kind person, can make and keep friends, and is probably helpful to many people he knows and cares for. And that he does the right thing to care for his family.

I also imagine that is what he was doing in 1963 when he got involved in something that he had to lie about ever since.

No one can understand the demons others carry around and have to struggle with. It doesn't necessarily make them bad people today. It is quite unlikely Wesley is doing anything wrong today except for the occasional added embellishment on his fifty-year old story. Sometimes memory slips.

Gayle wants to protect her friend. Admirable as that is - and we have seen many people protest the innocence of many friends and family members convicted of many crimes - the emotional tie is based on bonds rather than evidence. Just as some people cling to the second floor encounter, it is entirely an emotional thing having nothing to do with the evidence involved.

In Steve's thread, Gayle took umbrage at the attack on Wesley but took great offense in the posters' derogatory opinion of Dallas and Oak Cliff. That is understandable, to defend one's home turf. My grandfather was born and raised in Dallas and once he left home to make his way in life, he never returned to the place he called "the armpit of the world". Perhaps his memories of the place were not as kind as others'.

Emotions aside... and that is something any good investigator must set aside, the evidence does not look kindly on Wes. Regardless of the goodness in his spirit today or the self-justifiable reasons he made the move from Huntsville to Dallas in 1963, the evidence at this moment appears to strongly point to his having been involved in the murder of the President and the framing of the patsy, whom he pretended to befriend. The evidence paints a dark picture of a not-so-good person. But people can change and Wes may have as well, if he is not still pretending, but...

The case cannot be solved through a rosy set of glasses.

Mick Purdy

Terry, thank you. I needed to hear that.
Without going into any details, I was a little rattled after Steve's post and even sought advice from another member of the forum.
I am a respectful person by nature and would never wish to hurt anyone intentionally.
I think you've summed it up superbly and I need not add anything.
I believe in this forum and what it's on about and I really sincerely believe in what has been posted in this thread.

So thanks Terry, sometimes we just need reassurance I guess that we're on the right track.

Ed Ledoux
 
The best way Nix can save her friend from being further embarrassed is to have her friend answer the questions she said she would ask. She has not as far as I know even though she was on here saying she needed to get all the questions together...

Well Mrs. N? Did you? And if you didn't why, was your friend not forthcoming? And if you did ask, why not come back here and defend or explain what Wes told you?

Are you just a dupe for Wes huh Gayle?
 
 
 
Maybe he would rather talk to Marrs...

No Quarter!

Johnny Hartley

Frazier is very shady in my opinion.  His sworn testimony about not seeing Oswald at work after the assassination is on record. So it is remarkable to see him saying in a YouTube interview that he saw Oswald leave the depository round the same back dock that he arrived to work in, walk up Houston Street by the side of the depository, cross the road and then go out of sight. 

He lied about not having seen Oswald after the event, so what else did he lie about?  The package that he and his sister claim they saw Oswald carry to work, that no other workers saw? He claims that the police had a confession for him to sign, but no reason for this supposed police suspicion  has ever been offered, so I wonder if he invented this too?

Stan Dane

:: Stan cursing at himself ::

There's been so much activity here lately that this thread rolled off my radar screen and I lost track of what was going on here the last couple of days. So in catching up…

I agree 100% about being respectful. Good investigators are respectful, but they don't shy away from asking the hard questions. What Ed said is dead nuts on.

There are too many holes in the testimony of, and the testimony pertaining to, BWF. This thread is ranking right up there with Prayer Man. ROKCing right along.

I agree with what Johnny just posted: if BWF lied about some things, what else did he lie about? The only way we'll know it to rebuild this thing from scratch. And put some people on the spot! Respectfully.

This is a five Parker thread.

Ed Ledoux

I think if we had better quality images of the Roy Cooper films he rescued out of the trash we might, just maybe, see something. We might even find a LHO outside after the building is sealed off or who knows what is hiding in the film.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uft-zC0ljU

I concur Stan, I always am respectful and if someone doesn't want to talk about something I understand, but I will not shrink away either, but that they may have seen or know things that might be unimportant to them but historical finds come from unlikely sources and unlikely places. Asking about their lives and background helps break the ice and gives more historical significance than just JFK and Oswald questions.

If we knew where to look it would have been done before or found already. So I am always glad to speak with anyone from pope to dope about LHO and JFK.

So it would be a dream interview to do an hour with Wes. What, when, where and how are another matter.
Please keep me informed if Wes is scheduled for another one of those speaking engagements we see in videos. 

Stan Dane wrote:Johnny Hartley

Frazier is very shady in my opinion.  His sworn testimony about not seeing Oswald at work after the assassination is on record. So it is remarkable to see him saying in a YouTube interview that he saw Oswald leave the depository round the same back dock that he arrived to work in, walk up Houston Street by the side of the depository, cross the road and then go out of sight. 

He lied about not having seen Oswald after the event, so what else did he lie about?  The package that he and his sister claim they saw Oswald carry to work, that no other workers saw? He claims that the police had a confession for him to sign, but no reason for this supposed police suspicion  has ever been offered, so I wonder if he invented this too?

Mick Purdy

You are spot on. Everyone needs to look very closely at Wes, he was inserted into the story and was there right up until Lee was dropped at the theatre.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux
 
The best way Nix can save her friend from being further embarrassed is to have her friend answer the questions she said she would ask. She has not as far as I know even though she was on here saying she needed to get all the questions together...

Well Mrs. N? Did you? And if you didn't why, was your friend not forthcoming? And if you did ask, why not come back here and defend or explain what Wes told you?

Are you just a dupe for Wes huh Gayle?
 
 
 
Maybe he would rather talk to Marrs...

No Quarter!

Mick Purdy

So so great response as usual Ed. You RokC. Oh and you're outstanding too if I hadn't mentioned.