Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Mick Purdy

Working with what we know, and on the basis that Oswald never did carry a large paper sack containing a rifle or anything else for that matter, curtain rods included on the morning of the 22nd.
Consider the following:

The story goes that Randle and Frazier made statements about a sack, a large paper sack to police sometime in the early evening of the 22nd. But we know that Randle told police at about 3.00 pm Oswald carried something suspicious in a sack, a paper sack, into work that morning with Wes.

For Randle to have fore knowledge of the bag or a sack she must have seen or known of it prior to Friday. How is it possible she could describe even in an approximate way a bag that the DPD would assign to the supposed murder weapon. Remember at no time were Randle or Frazier ambiguous about what they observed.

How would Randle and Frazier know to include a large paper sack in the description of Oswald carrying something, anything for that matter, into work that morning? How did they know to describe a large paper bag in the first place?

Could it be that they knew the how and why to describe it because they knew the bag would be found somewhere on the upper floors of the TSBD.

Mick Purdy

When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.

Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day.

WTH!

Steely Dan

This thread is a beaut Mick. All the more so because your not getting interrupted by some fat fuck, feasibly contending that you have not verified anything. Keep going.

Ed Ledoux

Thanks Mick!

It’s in this context I contend that they did knowingly create the illusion of LHO carrying something sinister. 

Agreed did Lee need a 3 foot bag to carry a couple cheese sandwiches and an apple to work? Of course not. So thus the Wes and Mae fib about the bag. If Wes did drive LHO, Lee did not have curtain rods, a long bag or any such nonsense. A lunch sac perhaps. But we don't know that Wes drove him. Neighbor said Willie gave LHO a ride. Did Wes forget about Lee. Did he not remember he had driven Lee to Irving? Perhaps. Otherwise Wes would pull up in front of the Paine's to give Lee a lift, maybe toot the horn or rev the engine as he was so famous for....
The part of Marina's testimony stating it was not Wes whom drove him, while perfect and possible, may be her way of giving an answer and no answer at the same time. How would she know? Was this a rumor she hears also from neighbors?
She is alive and can be questioned.
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.

Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?

Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day...

Just long enough to plausibly suggest it could have carried a weapon but short enough to also suggest ignorance on their part.  

Yes, that is why I ask how they would know how long to NOT make the bag. Too long and a rifle may have fit.
This almost seems a compromise. A deal with Wes, Linnie and the good Reverend would be a small lie, a fib and would not hurt their chance of getting into heaven if they 'believed they saw a long sack.'
Maybe Linnie had to tell Wes about the sack when Wes called her from the hospital?
She told Wes about a sack that she or Willie sees when he/she took Lee to work/the bus, a sack which was really lunch even if it was long-ish?

An issue of the May '63 Guns Mag, look through it, read the adds and articles of importance
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1963issues/G0563.pdf
 
greg at March 9, 2015 at 2:23 AM
From Tuly's testimony
Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.

First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?
Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.

From Frazier's HSCA interview
SO SOMEONE HAD GONE TO MR. SHELLY AND ASKED, ARE WE GOING TO GET TO SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE? AND THERE WAS -- I GUESS HE CHECKED WITH MR. TRULY AND MR. TRULY CHECKED WITH HIS BOSSES WHO WERE UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR AND THEY HAD COME BACK WITH THE REPLY THAT, YES, WE WOULD STOP AND EVERYONE COULD SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE.

..except Troy West, Jack Dougherty, and Eddie Piper as I believe Prayer Man is LHO whom stepped outside.
Troy was half asleep, and he never left his station except to pee, most likely from his responses he was naping from what he said he saw.
Eddie Piper says his choice was to watch from a horrible viewing location, perhaps his sandwich was on a special heat register/radiator and warmed up better there? So Jack comes Downstairs and asks Eddie what that sound was like he used to hear in the military...oy vey....and I Don't believe Eddie could hear what he said either from the window he was supposedly eating at, watching at, or whatever, and he sure as heck could not hear any better than Jack Dougherty whom was on or near the floor the sounds supposedly came from....
'I don't know Jack, wouldn't you know right bit better than me sir?'  But that is the story and they are sticking to it.
And Frazier looks at a person on his right but is cut off in testimony and is never again asked to finish the sentence of whom was his right, right up behind him also in those shadows he said he was ducked in.
Anyone standing with their head and eyes in the shade can easily and clearly describe the other persons also in shade.
It is much harder looking into the shade from the bright sunlight. So Wes, in the shade as he says himself, was about to tell the world whom was also up on the landing to his right.
Did he tell the WC and it was...edited? What is the problem with Wes telling us what he was going to say anyways?
Why doesn't he tell us the Texas School Book Depository employees name? 
Its a short list Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier, choose one.   
And while he is picking an employee to finish his testimony, he can also clear up whom told them they could stop working till they had watched the Parade?
Did anyone tell Jack? Did anyone tell this to Troy, or Eddie. Who told this to them, and whom told Wes this? Where did this Pow Wow of Presidential Parade hopefuls take place? Were all the employees huddled outside Truly's office waiting for Truly to call upstairs...call up to who, OV Campbell or Jack Cason?
Lets clear this shit up while BWF is alive. So does Buell know his boss is not backing up this claim?

Where's your rider almost sounds like a jab, or a joke, like hey you forgot Lee dumbass. 

Of course the idea Shields knew the shots were coming from the building even though he was a block away and could not see the building. A miracle! The way he knew where the shots came from, was he went back towards the direction of Elm and saw the police surrounding the TSBD.



I guess Givens was a floating worker. 

The only way the Where's Your Rider makes sense is if LHO rides with BWF every day as LHO lives in IRVING with RP or BWF and LHO rides daily except for that day, and Givens etc notice.

 

 

 

So its up to Shields recollections.

Lets confirm Frazier's recollections.

Stan Dane wrote:Steely Dan

This thread is a beaut Mick. All the more so because your not getting interrupted by some fat fuck, feasibly contending that you have not verified anything. Keep going.

Mick Purdy

Hey thanks Steely, you are too kind.

Verification can be so yesterday sometimes.

Mick Purdy

No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald on Friday morning nobody except for of course Wesley, Linnie and very briefly, I believe just a glimpse, from Essie. The whole family minus of course William Randle. But who would really know if he was in the house or not for we have no clue where Randle was Friday morning.
From Thursday the 21st in the evening we have a recorded sighting of Lee by a neighbour C P Schneider at around 6.00pm on the front lawn of the Paine Residence.

After that we have only Ruth and Marina who verify Lee’s presence at the Paine house.

Marina in her testimony has Lee going to bed at 11.00 pm and Ruth has Lee retiring at 9.00 pm

We only have their word that Lee is at the house on West Street in Irving after 6.00pm.

Next morning Friday 22nd, we have Ruth and Marina statements and testimony stating they did not observe Lee at the house and that they did not hear him either. All we have is their word that Lee left the house sometime before Ruth awoke at 7.30 am.

We know that nobody saw Lee leave the Paine house, and we know that no-one saw Lee walk the street on his way to the Randle residence for his supposed trip into work with Wes.

All we have as any sort of confirmation for the whereabouts of LHO on Friday morning in Irving until the sighting of Lee by Jack Dougherty at the warehouse rear door on Elm Street is Wes, Linnie, and Essie.

Now I’m not suggesting for one moment that this casts any doubt as to the whereabouts of LHO Thursday evening, but I’m sure as hell looking at the lying conniving duo living on Westbrook a lot closer than I once did.

Ed Ledoux
 
Where was Willie Randles car?
Was it not packed up for the trip?
Was it not in the carport?
Did the Randles have two cars? Who's car was that in the photo of the Randles, it was not Wes's car, and really did not seem to be a Fed's car (FBI).
 
Mick, If you believe the timeline the Randle/Frazier duo give that morning would have Lee Oswald standing out infont of their house for about Ten Minutes waiting for Wes to finish up eating, brushing his teeth, etc. after LHO supposedly walked up and to the car and back to the driveway. Not a single neighbor notices such.
 
We would all like to know what Wesley Frazier knows about Willie that morning, Willies car, and the missing pieces to the story.

Can we pose a few questions to Wes about a few of these issues? He is alive and talking so lets ask him!

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux
 
Where was Willie Randles car?
Was it not packed up for the trip?
Was it not in the carport?
Did the Randles have two cars? Who's car was that in the photo of the Randles, it was not Wes's car, and really did not seem to be a Fed's car (FBI).
 
Mick, If you believe the timeline the Randle/Frazier duo give that morning would have Lee Oswald standing out infont of their house for about Ten Minutes waiting for Wes to finish up eating, brushing his teeth, etc. after LHO supposedly walked up and to the car and back to the driveway. Not a single neighbor notices such.
 
We would all like to know what Wesley Frazier knows about Willie that morning, Willies car, and the missing pieces to the story.

Can we pose a few questions to Wes about a few of these issues? He is alive and talking so lets ask him!

Mick Purdy

I second this motion.

Only I wish he could be questioned under oath, in a neutral clinical environment.

An environment where his answers could be rigorously scrutinised and cross examined, where finally Wes could be held accountable for all of his contradictions, his fabrications and deceitfulness.

(I waited back to rev my engine.....) Please spare me! 

Most people I suspect on this forum support the idea that Prayer Man is Oswald, I know I do. Then by extension Wes was lying through his teeth by omission, about who was up there on those ol' steps. And as you eluded to that awkward moment when Wes was asked who was there, he almost let it slip.

I've studied him closely, I believe he is a consummate liar and one of the great story tellers. This is his gift to us as we try and unravel the mess.

Not much of that morning makes any sense, but to have him answer questions under the right conditions, now whilst he's still upright and breathing would I'm sure go some way in helping us better understand the Randle Residence and its occupants.

If we could set up some sort of new thread assigned only to questions from forum members for BWF and then list them in order of priority that'd be a great start me thinks. We could keep it on topic ie "Wheres Willie" , Where's Willie's car,   Where's Willies scope"  or depending what everyone thinks make the Q's more general. 

But I agree we could ask, No we should ask!........He's alive. Why not!

Mick Purdy

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight--I don't know. I have now forgotten.
Mr. RANKIN. What time was he due for work?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already gone.
 
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave.
 
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the Paine's residence or garage?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a bag at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
 
Why is Rankin asking Marina if Wesley Frazier drove Lee to work Friday morning. I thought it had long been established as the official narrative by the time the Commission hearings were under way in '64. Spare me, if he just wanted for the record!

And why does Marina not know what time her husband starts work. As far as we know Lee did not do overtime, and started at the same time every day.

Mick Purdy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4

@ 9.06. BWF: Lee on his own came to the house, where my sister, my brother in-law and her three children........I was having breakfast

If we can believe Wes in this interview, he states William Randle is at the house when Lee comes by.

And of course if we can believe Wes's account in this interview, and Bill Randle is at the house when Lee supposedly comes by then that raises some important questions. Many in fact!

• It places Bill Randle at the house at 7.20-7.30 am in the morning. Not on his way with Berry Caster to Austin.
  
• It means Bill Randle had ample opportunity to take Oswald to work.
  
• It also means Randle at the very earliest would have made it to Austin by around 1.00 pm. Supposedly on business. Gives him by my estimation 3 or so hours of "business" in Austin before he checked into the Austin Motel at 7.00 pm.
  

What business was he attending in Austin which allowed around 4 hours of face to face contact with he and Caster which couldn't possibly be dealt with by phone or wire. 

These timelines are based on leaving Irving at around 8.00 am. I don't believe this to be true.

I believe he left much later than this, and drove straight to the motel, which places him and Caster in Austin with no time to conduct any business on the Friday afternoon.

For me it's looking more and more likely he and Caster left Irving later that Friday. Possibly as late as 3.30-4.00pm. Maybe just after Linnie Mae had a word to Adamcik.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4

@ 9.06. BWF: Lee on his own came to the house, where my sister, my brother in-law and her three children........I was having breakfast

If we can believe Wes in this interview, he states William Randle is at the house when Lee comes by.

And of course if we can believe Wes's account in this interview, and Bill Randle is at the house when Lee supposedly comes by then that raises some important questions. Many in fact!

• It places Bill Randle at the house at 7.20-7.30 am in the morning. Not on his way with Berry Caster to Austin.
  
• It means Bill Randle had ample opportunity to take Oswald to work.
  
• It also means Randle at the very earliest would have made it to Austin by around 1.00 pm. Supposedly on business. Gives him by my estimation 3 or so hours of "business" in Austin before he checked into the Austin Motel at 7.00 pm.
  

What business was he attending in Austin which allowed around 4 hours of face to face contact with he and Caster which couldn't possibly be dealt with by phone or wire. 

These timelines are based on leaving Irving at around 8.00 am. I don't believe this to be true.

I believe he left much later than this, and drove straight to the motel, which places him and Caster in Austin with no time to conduct any business on the Friday afternoon.

For me it's looking more and more likely he and Caster left Irving later that Friday. Possibly as late as 3.30-4.00pm. Maybe just after Linnie Mae had a word to Adamcik.

Ed Ledoux

Nicely done Mick!

Willie was there, then his car was there.

Which would put his car in the carport.

Now was that the only car the Randle's owned or had available? Is the car we see in the WC photos Willie's? I thinking the other car we see in the WC photos was either Willie's or a FBI car...leaning heavily against a Fed car.



Whoa...Check out the fresh tracks that car left in the lawn! 

Odd no other tracks seem to be in this picture.

Was there on street parking allowed in the neighborhood? Or did Wes feel safer parking the car where he couldn't see it?

Didn't Wes have carport privileges, as it was a two car carport with only ever pictured with the one car under it...?

Mick Purdy

Hmmmmmmm!
You're so right Ed,

Willies Car is there in the carport then.......
From memory Linnie could motor around in her own car too, even when Hubbie was not there...
3 cars at 7.20 am in the morning, maybe 2 in under the carport .....Linnies and Willies... and Wes's just outside on the lawn.
Gee, if there was no on street parking Linnie would've needed X-ray vision to see Lee put that bag in the rear seat of Wes's car.

I need a bigger shovel, got to dig deeper

Greg Parker

Wasn't there a photo showing the street view from Paines to Randles? I don't recall any cars parked on the street in that, but I could be wrong...

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

Wasn't there a photo showing the street view from Paines to Randles? I don't recall any cars parked on the street in that, but I could be wrong...

Mick Purdy



Greg, it would seem you could park a car on the street, at least on W Fifth anyways.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4

@ 9.06. BWF: Lee on his own came to the house, where my sister, my brother in-law and her three children........I was having breakfast

If we can believe Wes in this interview, he states William Randle is at the house when Lee comes by.

And of course if we can believe Wes's account in this interview, and Bill Randle is at the house when Lee supposedly comes by then that raises some important questions. Many in fact!

• It places Bill Randle at the house at 7.20-7.30 am in the morning. Not on his way with Berry Caster to Austin.
  
• It means Bill Randle had ample opportunity to take Oswald to work.
  
• It also means Randle at the very earliest would have made it to Austin by around 1.00 pm. Supposedly on business. Gives him by my estimation 3 or so hours of "business" in Austin before he checked into the Austin Motel at 7.00 pm.
  

What business was he attending in Austin which allowed around 4 hours of face to face contact with he and Caster which couldn't possibly be dealt with by phone or wire. 

These timelines are based on leaving Irving at around 8.00 am. I don't believe this to be true.

I believe he left much later than this, and drove straight to the motel, which places him and Caster in Austin with no time to conduct any business on the Friday afternoon.

For me it's looking more and more likely he and Caster left Irving later that Friday. Possibly as late as 3.30-4.00pm. Maybe just after Linnie Mae had a word to Adamcik.

Ed Ledoux

Nicely done Mick!

Willie was there, then his car was there.

Which would put his car in the carport.

Now was that the only car the Randle's owned or had available? Is the car we see in the WC photos Willie's? I thinking the other car we see in the WC photos was either Willie's or a FBI car...leaning heavily against a Fed car.



Whoa...Check out the fresh tracks that car left in the lawn! 

Odd no other tracks seem to be in this picture.

Was there on street parking allowed in the neighborhood? Or did Wes feel safer parking the car where he couldn't see it?

Didn't Wes have carport privileges, as it was a two car carport with only ever pictured with the one car under it...?

Mick Purdy

Whoa... check out that amazingly small window where all that glimpsing and glancing took place......

Amazing!

Mick Purdy

According to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6 pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning.

It's more than possible, now we know that Randle was at the house at 7.20am

Terry Martin

What a curious species we are, hm?
 
Dorothy Randle said Willie had driven Oswald to work and everyone "naturally" assumed she meant BWF. Our tendency to "have things make sense" has really got to be suspended while investigating this case. Otherwise we will "make sense" ourselves to death.

Fantastic work, Mick! That seems to be the smoking gun on this portion of the case. Frazier - where's your rider - is caught in the biggest fattest lie of this case. And I think Givens yelling "Where's your rider?" has a lot of implications for other areas of this case as well such as the Beckley house, the bus ride, and the perplexing question about who left the TSBD earliest, LHO or BWF? I mean, if Oswald needed a ride back to Irving...

Mick Purdy

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

I urge all members who might not have seen this video interview of Frazier by Gary Mack some time in 2002 to have a look at the time codes listed.

If anyone has had reservations about Frazier's involvement in the framing of LHO, then I would suggest this is must viewing. 

IMO he is a passive-aggressive personality who constantly lies, over and over, so much so that he struggles to remember the mountainous dung heap he has created.

This interview reveals so much, Frazier has no clue when he speaks of the timeline of his afternoon activities on that Friday afternoon that the hole he digs for himself with regards to the hospital visit is so gigantic he cannot and will not ever climb from.

@12.36 G.M: Did you see Oswald at this time after the assassination
BWF: No!

@13.01 BWF: When we were outside the building before we went back inside.......

@13.58 BWF: Probably- five to ten minutes...................

Listen through to 15.20.

@20.33. Role call...................................

@23.14 BWF: That was before.............................

@25.05 BWF: I didn't go directly home.........

@38.55 BWF: Oswald on the radio as the suspect......... this is priceless

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

What a curious species we are, hm?
 
Dorothy Randle said Willie had driven Oswald to work and everyone "naturally" assumed she meant BWF. Our tendency to "have things make sense" has really got to be suspended while investigating this case. Otherwise we will "make sense" ourselves to death.

Fantastic work, Mick! That seems to be the smoking gun on this portion of the case. Frazier - where's your rider - is caught in the biggest fattest lie of this case. And I think Givens yelling "Where's your rider?" has a lot of implications for other areas of this case as well such as the Beckley house, the bus ride, and the perplexing question about who left the TSBD earliest, LHO or BWF? I mean, if Oswald needed a ride back to Irving...

Mick Purdy

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1963&country=1

You're right Terry, "Where's your rider" might have meant so much more than just a simple inquiry. It also could help us to understand that what he was yelling out had everything to do with the fact Lee and Wes had been coming into work a lot more regularly than we've bee told.

From the calendar above I count 4 weekends (minus 1 for the weekend Lee didn't visit Irving according to the official narrative)

That's eight days by my estimation that work colleges had the opportunity to observe Lee with Frazier giving him a ride to work according to the record.

Not many in my mind, not enough times I would suggest to create the impression that Lee was a regular passenger with Wes over that 5 week period if we are to believe what we've been told.

Not enough rides into work to have Given's all concerned about Wes's rider....

But what if Wes was actually seen everyday in that parking lot with Oswald, now that would mean the workers would've sighted Wes and Lee together a whopping 26x2 (coming and going) times in the space of those 5 weeks

If Givens, was down at the warehouse on Houston every day, mornings and arvo's during that period then it would make far more sense of "where's your rider" if he had observed Wes and Oswald coming and going...... on 52 occasions.

Just as Shields said,

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Steely Dan

This thread is a beaut Mick. All the more so because your not getting interrupted by some fat fuck, feasibly contending that you have not verified anything. Keep going.

Mick Purdy

Hey thanks Steely, you are too kind.

Verification can be so yesterday sometimes.

Mick Purdy

I meant to add previously in response to your post, how grateful and appreciative I am for having the opportunity to have an opinion and share it here. I am acutely aware of how much time and effort that has been invested here by others, others who are far more advanced, knowledgeable, and literate than I could ever hope to be regarding the Assassination.

Not wanting to single anyone out, but the likes of Greg, Lee, and Ed who in my mind are quite amazing at what they do here. They are why the forum is so worthwhile. They are meticulous, accurate and always truthful in their coverage. So I apologise if sometimes I fall short in that regard, but I can only get better as time progresses. And keep learning on how to become a more competent researcher.

It can be intimidating for the newcomer, watching the experts weave their investigative magic, but it's the people here all of them who make it possible for people like me to feel welcome, because I'm not judged, or made to feel inferior.

So Thanks to all!

Steely Dan

Don't sell yourself short, Mick. Over 7000 views and counting. Although the other forums are reading your work, none of them have attempted to refute it.

Greg Parker

I gave it a plug on the podcast, as well.

Stan Dane wrote:Steely Dan

Don't sell yourself short, Mick. Over 7000 views and counting. Although the other forums are reading your work, none of them have attempted to refute it.

Mick Purdy

Cheers mate.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I gave it a plug on the podcast, as well.

Mick Purdy

Thanks Greg,

I owe you a special thanks for at least supporting me in this in the first place.

Mick Purdy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4

@ 9.06. BWF: Lee on his own came to the house, where my sister, my brother in-law and her three children........I was having breakfast

If we can believe Wes in this interview, he states William Randle is at the house when Lee comes by.

Ed Ledoux
 
Of course I listened to that close again and he is saying they all lived there, and then he is talking about breakfast. Not that Willie was at breakfast.
No smoking gun for where Willie was I'm afraid.
WESLEY FRAZIER is alive and should answer this question too.
Where was Willie and where was his car that morning, which car was Willies?
 
"Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill." - Wes Frazier
Were any other vehicles owned or available to the Bill and the Randles?
What about Wes' Step Dad and Essie Mae Williams car? Was it at the Randles? Did they drive to visit, and then they took Stepdad in via ambulance?

 

Essie Mae Williams, up on an extended visit from Huntsville, moved in with her husband David Williams in mid-October. But David soon experienced a recurrence of heart failure. Essie had that effect on men?
 
When the cops search Wes's car at the hospital they leave it there.
Take him to DPD and then were driving him back home? Or to his car at the hospital?
Anyways they turn around and take him back for a bag and gag with the lie detection machine,
Then drive him home?
Or to his car at the hospital?
Answers are in this video,
http://www.dbtv.no/2843001616001#Slik_ble_Buell_behandlet_av_politiet_etter_attentatet
http://dagbladet.uds.ak.o.brightcove.com/1027729757001/1027729757001_2843101797001_New-Project-1.mp4
http://www.dbtv.no/2843001616001#
 
They have Wes pissing his pants, he is scared to death!

 


 
Willie have any guns packed up in his car?
Wes had his Mauser taken as evidence. But why not check for Buell Wesley Frazier. Why even look for records of an Randall or even a Randle. Its not like Wes was Buell Wesley Randall/Randle.
Why the Willie search.
Now just because this document says RANDALL does not mean the FBI was not checking the correct spelling of Randle.
These FBI reports are intentionally misspelled. It's like protecting a source or standard operating procedure, they do not give correct names in the reports. More like phonetically transcribed second English translations. Very effective for stopping investigation or reporting on these sources.
 
Anyway we still have the neighborhood spy Mrs. Roberts told Mr. Schneider that is was Willie not Wesley whom drove Lee.
Scheider said he did see Lee Nov 21st at 6pm at the Paine's but we have nothing putting Lee standing in front of the Paine residence or the Randle's for ten to fifteen minutes on 11/22.
 


If this is anything like the 11/22 drive, Lee was going to be late. 7:54 and Wes is not yet to the TSBD, has to drive passed it a half mile, rev the engine, watch the welders, shout back at Givens where his rider is....yep late late late.
 
She was making lunches?
Linnie Mae was preparing "lunches".
So maybe she was making Wes and Willie lunches, plural, rather than I was making lunch for Wes, or a lunch.
-
Linnie described the bag LHO was carrying as 2 and half feet long. I believe she said LHO carried it in a way Essie Mae would not be able to see it or to cover for Essie Mae saying nothing was in his hands. Hanging down the bag might have been harder for someone standing farther away from the tiny window. But the only other witness similar to Jack Dougherty, Essie does not see a package in the hands of the Rider!
 
Mr. Ball. Is that about right? That is 28 1/2 inches.
Mrs. Randle. I measured 27 last time.

Mr. Ball. You measured 27 once before?

Mrs. Randle. Yes, sir.
 
In her statements she said LHO carried it in such a way that it almost touched the ground and was held in his by his hand and arm by his side.
So the longest such a package could be without touching the ground is approximately 23-24". Cupped under the arm is likewise about 23".
Where the extra inches come from is in Linnies estimation. Reality is 24" with an few inches or so of each end rolled- folded over.
Just as the sample wrapping paper was in width that they showed Linnie....hmmm isn't that convenient, reminds me of Markham being show a jacket...Oy Vey. Speaking of jackets, why didn't they show Linnie the grey jacket while they were at it?
 
 
 
Then the Caster link. Interesting thing is Warren brought in a Mauser and a .22 to the TSBD and then up to his office on the 2nd floor.
It was the same office Geneva Hine was unable to get into as it was locked and a "girl" was talking to someone, or maybe on the phone but there was a curtain which blocked Geneva's view. So Geneva assumed the "girl" was alone and talking on the telephone.
That was the South-Western Publishing Co. Office.
I know it sounds conspiratorial but Caster said the rifle was at his home when questioned. That was the extent of the investigation.
 
Wes surely talked about the President coming to Dallas. Maybe the parade coming through town?
 
Mr. Ball. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?
Mr. Frazier. No; I didn't, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was there some reason why you didn't?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.
 
Here is an eye popper.
 
Representative Ford. Could you describe for the Commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I could.

Representative Ford. Would you do so, please?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on piece of paper.] SEE BELOW
Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning I used this one over here.

Representative Ford. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?

Mr. Frazier. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the shelves.

Representative Ford. From this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?

Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see this area back over here.


 
 
Representative Ford. Did you look over there?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Frazier. Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly. So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf. So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down.

Mr. Ball. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?
..............
 
And a little prestidigitation
The string we saw laying on the floor of the DPD in the items removed from the Paines, which was cut and the knot in one end was still visible. And yet the DPD has this fun item supplied to the FBI or was this supplied post wit?
 
Okay Ladies and Gentlemen please watch the string.
 
 
 
 
 
 
NOW THAT IS A MAGIC STRING! remember only one string was recovered from the Paines' garage, was tied around one end only, and only one string was sent to Washington!
 
 
 
This was of interest too; Ruth Paine got back the Minox film, a pocket knife and both pair of those binoculars that kept shifting about on the inventories of Beckley - Irving items. Hmmmm. 
 
 
 
 
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together.
 
BULLSHIT! What about on 11/22/1963 Wes?
 
So Wes, Where is your rider now?
 
In a book he's writing, Mr. Frazier describes how he and his sister assembled packages with wrapping paper for hours, trying to show Warren Commission lawyers the size of the package Oswald carried that day.
 
In its report, released in the fall of 1964, the commission said:
 
"The Warren Commission has weighed the visual recollection of Frazier and Mrs. Randle against the evidence here presented ... and has concluded that Frazier and Randle are mistaken as to the length of the bag."
 
The FBI lab reported that the disassembled rifle stock measured just under 35 inches long, and the homemade bag measured 38 inches.
 
"I wasn't surprised," Mr. Frazier said. "They seemed to have a prearranged agenda when they questioned Linnie and me. Our refusal to agree with their agenda simply caused them to state that we were mistaken."
 
Their testimony fostered early public doubt about the commission's investigation.
 
President Gerald Ford, who in 1963-64 was a Michigan congressman and a Warren Commission member, told reporters in Dallas in early 1964 that he thought Mr. Frazier had been mistaken.
 
"I don't believe for a moment that he was consciously lying," Mr. Ford said then. "This is a fine young man – I've talked to him – who recalls seeing an object a certain size. But if Oswald was carrying curtain rods, as Mr. Frazier claimed he told him, I am a bit confused as to what happened to them."
 
Mr. Ford told a Dallas Morning News reporter that day: "I have never believed Mr. Frazier was involved in anything more than being a good neighbor, a good friend. I don't think he even knew Oswald very well."
 
Watch this for answers
http://jfk.richmond.com/Buell-Wesley-Frazier-25364050?playlistId=15653