Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

Greg, That would make him shorter than 5 feet.

Greg Parker

That's right! He was the Billy Lovelady midget!

Seriously... that's what I got too... 57.7 inches. 

But then I thought...fuck it, that can't be right. It's Wes goddamit! So I convinced myself it should just be added on. 
My bad.   

Greg Parker

Those cunning plotters put Wes on the racks and stretched him post-assassination.

Paul Francisco Paso

Wes is simply playing tribute to the BYP's. They were a big hit in 1964. Time magazine had them on their cover. They seem dated today.

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Wes is simply playing tribute to the BYP's. They were a big hit in 1964. Time magazine had them on their cover. They seem dated today.

Greg Parker

Not as dated as that haircut in the pics on the previous page!

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Paul Francisco Paso

Wes is simply playing tribute to the BYP's. They were a big hit in 1964. Time magazine had them on their cover. They seem dated today.

Greg Parker

Not as dated as that haircut in the pics on the previous page!

Paul Francisco Paso

That haircut is from another era best forgotten. I have.

Ed Ledoux



Drats, Roscoe White was 5'10"

Although the BYPs being a composite would obscure the standin's true height.

The BYPs were possibly made as a composite and rephotographed with the IR. That would be the simplest explanation for manufacture and diminutive standin's size. Or it was a 5'4" Lolly Pop Guilder with a square chin, bump on arm, wrist watch, and time to kill between 9:21 am and 12 noon.

This is what got Lamp Post Lamson in trouble. He said he could not accurately measure the gun as it was tilted at an angle, away from the lens, but swore the guy was Oswald's height....what a buffoon!

Could the difference between Stan and Terry, 2 inches, be that the measurement line doesn't actually touch the ground, but hits top of shoe?

Wish we could test B.G. Brown. Does he have his height listed somewhere?

Mick Purdy

See, this is why this forum is amazing, we now know who it is Not in the BYP's.

Beowulf

Speaking of the paper bag, I wonder if Oswald's fingerprint was actually found on that paper bag seen next to empty cola bottle and front step and the federales decided to move this brown bag-- or at least strips torn from bag to look brown wrapping paper-- to the sniper nest. It is curious there's a photo of a brown paper bag next to where PM was standing but no photos of a paper bag in sniper nest. What makes think this is what an FBI agent told the NY Times: "on Sunday the FBI agent on the scene, Gordon Shanklin, made it final by informing Fred Powledge of the New York Times that a print of Oswald's left index finger had been found on the paper bag containing the chicken bones."

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-oswald-affair/ 

"Left index, left index finger... Where have we heard of that before? Oh yes... (155) 6. Latent fingerpoint designated 4a recovered from brown paper container (wrapping) and developed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I identified it as the left index finger (no. 7) of Lee Harvey Oswald."

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/prints.htm

Terry Martin

Like the rest of this case, we now have the doppelganger paper bag fingerprints!

The case that just keeps on giving.

Mick Purdy

Need some help!

Anyone have a way of confirming with proof what time the so called paper sack was discovered. 
Secondly, is there anyway of knowing if the info of that discovery was made public before 4.00 pm i.e. Radio live TV etc.

Thanks heaps in advance. Sorry to ask but I'm away with work and don't have the resources to do this.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

Need some help!

Anyone have a way of confirming with proof what time the so called paper sack was discovered. 
Secondly, is there anyway of knowing if the info of that discovery was made public before 4.00 pm i.e. Radio live TV etc.

Thanks heaps in advance. Sorry to ask but I'm away with work and don't have the resources to do this.

Mick Purdy

OK, forget my first request my new found UK drinking partner Bart has confirmed a time stamp for the bag.

I only need to know at what time the discovery of said bag was made public. Please tell me it was 4.00 pm or after.

Mick Purdy

There’s no need to read on if you subscribe to the theory that Lee Oswald carried a large paper bag or sack into work with Wesley Frazier Friday morning 22/11/63.

I happen to believe he did not, and I believe BWF "Where’s your rider" has shown with some certainty that this is indeed the case. I think it has been shown that Linnie Mae and Wesley Frazier lied about the existence of the large sack. They fabricated the whole story of the bag.

What has come to light recently, is a legitimate time stamp of the sack outside the TSBD by way of a close up photograph of a policeman holding the bag at 3.00 pm. Police reports suggest the sack made its way over to the crime lab at 2.30 pm. The 3.00 pm time stamp is important IMO.
 
From the Rose, Stovall, Adamcik report:

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
 
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.

I have tried to find without success what time the Paper sack was made public and by that I mean aired to the general public by way of either radio or TV.

There seems no mention of it anywhere until very much later in the day.

Curry briefly mentions a sack in a late night presser, but to my mind is ambiguous, he could be referring to the chicken sack supposedly found on the 6th floor???
 
My point being, and it only means something for those who believe Wes and Linnie lied about the existence of the large paper sack, is that its my belief that Linnie Mae IMO had foreknowledge of the “rifle sack” before it could have ever been known publicly. At or not long after 4.00 pm she approached Adamcik and supplied information regarding a large paper package which Oswald had that morning and that she was extremely suspicious of.
 
If there were no large paper package carried by Oswald that morning, and I certainly don’t believe for a second that there was, then how is it she could furnish the details of a large paper sack, one of enormous suspicion to Adamcik at the time she did.

In my mind and until proven otherwise she was telegraphing to Adamcik the information regarding the actual sack found in at the TSBD. It could not possibly have been a guess in my mind. To my mind given the timing, and the almost certainty of not being alerted to this info prior to her approach to the police its hard not to draw the conclusion of foreknowledge.

If I’m right, Linnie Mae Randle may have played a larger role in helping to frame Lee than I first imagined.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy
 
 



 
 
Wesley, you starting to feel anxious, a little nervy........you feelin' tense?

Tom Graves

Who's the guy wearing the coat, tie, and fedora behind (and to the right of) Wesley Buell Frazier in the Darnell / Stan Dane gif?  He's also visible in the freeze frame of the same scene.  Shelly?  Molina?
 

 
Tommy  :sun

Terry Martin

Tommy, I believe that was Molina.

Ed Ledoux

I believe these two images will secure in anyone's mind that Buell is less than truthful and almost let the truth out on paper. Note the words and sentences crossed out:



He was said to have dropped LEE at the FRONT DOOR by Edward Shields and Givens. Sees him go in the front door but changes it to back door and loading dock. He said he ate my lunch in the basement that I brought, but also on the steps with the others while waiting for the parade. Thus he needs to change what he really saw and did to a story that fits the circumstances. And crosses out those.

And about that lunch... When did he eat that lunch of his?



"I eat about 25 minutes until one."

or 12:35

He stayed on the steps for several minutes, then walked down Elm ext. a ways for a few minutes, looked around then came back and stood with a lady and waited for a while. No way did BWF go to the basement and eat his 'lunch' at 12:35, so that had to be crossed out.

Wes was eating on the steps, sitting and eating his lunch. And he was doing so when the parade came by, He then stood and watched the parade go past.

The basement lunch is out to lunch. (loco, crazy)  I think he was saying he was eating on the steps at 12:30-ish as it fits with his narrative between Lee's lunch and what himself was doing for lunch.

Other crossed out words, long changed to 'big' for description of the sack on the rear seat.... 

Ed Ledoux

Just thinking that Wes needs a bag or sack story so he can say the item in it was too small to be the rifle.

Of course when on the stand in the Shaw trial he admits the rifle he used in the Army an M-14 rifle did break down to 20+ inches or so, this is after the fact though.

That sack though...

It has something to do with the blanket. If I were to carry the rifle I may make 2 sacks, not full length, and overlap them to make a case. The blanket would cushion the rifle and the bags would hold it all together.

This did not happen. The blanket was the baby's and unlikely Marina would be okay with that being used to wrap or transport a rifle. Seems if that even happened and Marina found out she would sell that sucker or give it to someone whom was friendly and familiar with rifles. Now whom in the neighborhood would that be....Wes?

Yes Mick we need a brainstorm session on this.

Beowulf

Any detail Linnie Mae (or for that matter, Ruth Paine & any other witness) is quoted as saying on the afternoon of the 22nd could have actually been scripted later by police (that evening or the next day) and simply added to their witness statements as confirming the tale they were weaving. When the police take the gloves off, most people will end up saying whatever the cops want them to say. if Linnie Mae was told she had to cooperate (i.e. lie, as directed) if she wanted to keep Buell Frazier out of jail, I can't fault her for trying to help her kid brother out of a jam.

Vinny

I found Buell's Address:

630 Prairie Dell St
Lewisville, TX 75067

Stan Dane wrote:Vinny

I found Buell's Address:

630 Prairie Dell St
Lewisville, TX 75067

Ed Ledoux

Thanks Vinny,

I was talking with Mick about this very addy Vinny before you posted. We have a few avenues to take.

Checked the addy for taxes and yes its BWF's:

Account: 12092DEN
APD: SL0306A-00000F-0000-0008-0000
Location: 0000630PRAIRIE DELL ST
Legal: QUAILCREST BLK F LOT 8
Owner: FRAZIER BUELL W
630 PRAIRIE DELL ST
LEWISVILLE TX 75067--354
Acres: 0.105
Yr Built: 0
Sq Ft: 0
Def. Start: NONE
Def. End: NONE
Roll: R
UDI: 100%
2014 Values
Improvement 77553
Land 20055

Could always try sending him a letter with a self addressed stamped envelope with PM images and get him to comment.

RevPink89

Just a quick one on the height in the backyard photo.

Jack White used the "Worker" and "Militant" papers, with known dimensions, and concluded that the person in the photo could be no more than 5'6".

I got that from Jim Fetzer's presentation from the 2003 Zapruder Seminar.

Stan Dane wrote:RevPink89

Just a quick one on the height in the backyard photo.

Jack White used the "Worker" and "Militant" papers, with known dimensions, and concluded that the person in the photo could be no more than 5'6".

I got that from Jim Fetzer's presentation from the 2003 Zapruder Seminar.

Terry Martin

That pretty much matches the measurements several of us got using the rifle.

I'd say it's a pretty good bet that it isn't Lee in the photos.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

I believe these two images will secure in anyone's mind that Buell is less than truthful and almost let the truth out on paper. Note the words and sentences crossed out:



He was said to have dropped LEE at the FRONT DOOR by Edward Shields and Givens. Sees him go in the front door but changes it to back door and loading dock. He said he ate my lunch in the basement that I brought, but also on the steps with the others while waiting for the parade. Thus he needs to change what he really saw and did to a story that fits the circumstances. And crosses out those.

And about that lunch... When did he eat that lunch of his?



"I eat about 25 minutes until one."

or 12:35

He stayed on the steps for several minutes, then walked down Elm ext. a ways for a few minutes, looked around then came back and stood with a lady and waited for a while. No way did BWF go to the basement and eat his 'lunch' at 12:35, so that had to be crossed out.

Wes was eating on the steps, sitting and eating his lunch. And he was doing so when the parade came by, He then stood and watched the parade go past.

The basement lunch is out to lunch. (loco, crazy)  I think he was saying he was eating on the steps at 12:30-ish as it fits with his narrative between Lee's lunch and what himself was doing for lunch.

Other crossed out words, long changed to 'big' for description of the sack on the rear seat.... 

Mick Purdy

Thank you Ed. Outstanding!

Mick Purdy

Paul McGurkenfarklein
Is anyone thinking Frazier might be the guy brought the Carcano into the TSBD? You'd need a BS story to get away with it and this car ride/curtains story stinks of BS.
I am not sure if Oswald caught a lift with Buell or not that morning but it is obvious Frazier and his sister are trying to hide something by telling fibs. Someone had to take the Carcano into the TSBD so why not Buell? He also had access to be able to make a paper bag if there ever was one.
February 12, 2015 at 7:09 AM

Inclined to agree mate, I'm going with the bag at this point. I think its a fit to the lie about the sack in the first place. They made it at home and Wes took it in Friday morning alone.....

Mick Purdy

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2
 
I urge all members who might not have seen this video interview of Frazier by Gary Mack some time in 2002 to have a look at the time codes listed.

If anyone has had reservations about Frazier's involvement in the framing of LHO, then I would suggest this is must viewing.

IMO he is a passive-aggressive personality who constantly lies, over and over, so much so that he struggles to remember the mountainous dung heap he has created.

This interview reveals so much, Frazier has no clue when he speaks of the timeline of his afternoon activities on that Friday afternoon that the hole he digs for himself with regards to the hospital visit is so gigantic he cannot and will not ever climb from.

@12.36 G.M: Did you see Oswald at this time after the assassination? BWF: No!
 
@13.01 BWF: When we were outside the building before we went back inside.......
 
@13.58 BWF: Probably- five to ten minutes...................
 
Listen through to 15.20.
 
@20.33. Role call...................................
 
@23.14 BWF: That was before.............................
 
@25.05 BWF: I didn't go directly home.........

@38.55 BWF: Oswald on the radio as the suspect......... this is priceless.