Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Mick Purdy

Thanks to one of our ROKC musketeers we are getting closer to knowing just how big a liar Wes really is. 

Thanks to Stan we can say with some certainty that Wes and Lee were together watching the parade, maybe even enjoying one another's company, and just maybe getting closer to knowing that these two left together shortly afterward for the movies.

Mick Purdy

G. F. ROSE - R. S. STOVALL - J. P. ADAMCIK
REPORT ON INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S MURDER
 
On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited us
 
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
 
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.
 
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3
 
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's
 
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4
 
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.
 
G.F. Rose
R.S. Stovall

J.P. Ad

G. F. ROSE - R. S. STOVALL - J. P. ADAMCIK

REPORT ON INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S MURDER

About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3

We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4

sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.

G.F. Rose
R.S. Stovall
J.P. Adamcik

Unless I'm reading this wrong, Frazier isn't arrested at Irving until sometime between 6.00 pm and approx 6.30 pm. Again unless I'm missing something here, this leaves Wes unaccounted for more than several hours after the assassination. If he did leave with Oswald from the TSBD, went to the movies or whatever he still is unaccounted for a considerable amount of time, up to 5 hours in my mind.

Mick Purdy

Frazier’s lies for his whereabouts immediately after the shooting and beyond.

As time has passed and Frazier has recounted his movements to the media over the years about what he did after the shots rang out it has become very clear that he has lied at various times about what he actually did do.
In fact his memory has failed him many times when it comes to anything he did from the time he stood along with fellow employees on the TSBD steps watching the president’s parade.

He is more than vague about who was there on the steps with him at that time, he is even more hazy about what he did once he had left those steps, and after that he cannot remember whether he went immediately home or to the hospital to visit his stepfather. His timelines on any version he has offered is always out.
There are many instances of his lying, too numerous to mention here in one post with regards to his movements post assassination.
 
We must ask ourselves why did he lie about what should have been an innocent afternoon spent with his Stepfather in hospital. For most of the 51 years since that day Frazier has recalled he went straight to the hospital somewhere between 1-2 pm. According to early reports from Frazier himself that’s simply not true.

And thanks to some fantastic research on this forum we now know Frazier also lied about what time he left the TSBD. It has been confirmed he was not on the roll call sheet at the building. This is startling evidence which suggests he could have left the building any time after the shots were fired.
 
It’s completely possible IMO that Wes offered Lee a lift…………and they left together, crossed that carpark and hopped into Wes’s car and left the scene. That certainly would account for Wes’s reticence to talk about anything truthfully about what took place following the assassination for the past 51 years. If this were true, it also suggests Frazier was involved as a foot soldier of sorts in that he was part of the plan to get Oswald to a destination after the event.

Could it be that once Frazier had dropped Lee off, wherever that might be, Frazier went straight home and met with the troops and they in turn phoned through their concerns about the Lone Nut to the DPD, location and all.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

I urge all members who might not have seen this video interview of Frazier by Gary Mack some time in 2002 to have a look at the time codes listed.

If anyone has had reservations about Frazier's involvement in the framing of LHO, then I would suggest this is must viewing. 

IMO he is a passive-aggressive personality who constantly lies, over and over, so much so that he struggles to remember the mountainous dung heap he has created.

This interview reveals so much, Frazier has no clue when he speaks of the timeline of his afternoon activities on that Friday afternoon that the hole he digs for himself with regards to the hospital visit is so gigantic he cannot and will not ever climb from.

@12.36 G.M: Did you see Oswald at this time after the assassination
BWF: No!

@13.01 BWF: When we were outside the building before we went back inside.......

@13.58 BWF: Probably- five to ten minutes...................

Listen through to 15.20.

@20.33. Role call...................................

@23.14 BWF: That was before.............................

@25.05 BWF: I didn't go directly home.........

@38.55 BWF: Oswald on the radio as the suspect......... this is priceless

Mick Purdy

I didn't go directly home!

Mick Purdy

Have another listen...

Priceless!!

Mick Purdy

In some of his recollections over the journey Frazier would have us believe the police came to the Hospital at around 3.00 pm or there abouts.

I think we all know he's up to his neck in Pooh. 

Stan Dane

Joseph McBride thinks that solving the murder of JD Tippit is the Rosetta Stone of the Kennedy assassination.
 
I'm beginning to believe that learning the entire truth about Buell Wesley Frazier may be the real Rosetta Stone.

You and Ed are doing exceptional work here, Mick!

Ed Ledoux

Agreed Stan! We don't need to solve the Tippit murder as Oswald was not there. He did not shoot Tippit.
He was in a theater eating popcorn and watching a movie....with Wes.
Kinda a waste of time solving someone else's murder.

I suppose if there was a murder to be solved it would be Ruby murdering Oswald.
That was never satisfactorily explained.
Other than sheer coincidence and dumb luck combined with sudden impulse. Please. What a crock.

Mick has made some very good points above showing Wes' attempts to modify history. This is not faulty memory, he has either a Sixth Floor Museum staffer or news reporter with him at these interviews whom go right along with his adaptation. They know what actually happened yet play along with this revision.

The coverup that Wes was a part of is crumbling. 

Strange Wes never admits he let Lee drive his car either.
Wouldn't Wes help teach his rider to drive before his drivers examination tests.
Strange he never admits Lee came over to the house. What was the Randle force field activated?
Strange Wes never admits to eating lunch with Lee.
Strange Lee went hunting in the SU but doesn't ever ask Wes the great white hunter about hunting or did he?
Wes claims no discussions of anything except the weather and baby bullcrap. Sure Wes? When Castor brings in rifles not a peep from Wes or to Wes from Lee about them?
Whom believes anything Wes is putting out any more. I doubt a Grand Jury would.

What mail order house did Wes get his Enfield from?
Feds would have traced its purchase. Where is the report?
Was Hoover and the G-men in DC too busy, or just uninformed about Wesley's rifle?
Took less than a day to track the supposed purchase of the MC and tie it back to Hidell.
What was the delay with the Enfield? Feds too busy losing and destroying other evidence?

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

Joseph McBride thinks that solving the murder of JD Tippit is the Rosetta Stone of the Kennedy assassination.
 
I'm beginning to believe that learning the entire truth about Buell Wesley Frazier may be the real Rosetta Stone.

You and Ed are doing exceptional work here, Mick!

Mick Purdy

No, Stan it's you who have done amazing stuff here.....

Your work with the Gif's are absolutely astonishing. We can now move forward .....and completely understand that Frazier talked to Prayer Man with absolute confidence. Which in turns means Wes talked to Oswald on the steps just after the shots were fired. Thats a big fat WOW from me...and proves Wes is a Weasel. No ifs no buts.

So thank you Stan.

Mick Purdy

we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4

sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.

Questions:

1. At what time was the Rev called in to comfort Wes and Linnie and why?
   
2. And, is it possible that the affidavits in the record of both Randle and Frazier have been reworked in between visit (1) and the return visit (2)?
   
3. Is it possible that Fritz saw the original affidavits and demanded they be altered to fall in line with the official story?
   

Mick Purdy

Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4

sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM.

Notwithstanding that Greg and Terry have mentioned before now that it was quite "normal" for a reverand to be called in to comfort and support individuals of the church in trying times in Dallas Texas aka 1963, but I would like to know a lot more about the Rev, than whats currently on offer....
What he just shows up?
Who called him and why?
When was a phone call placed to him?
Was he a family friend?
Was the Rev waiting for a call at the local Irving church?

Just curious!!

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Agreed Stan! We don't need to solve the Tippit murder as Oswald was not there. He did not shoot Tippit.
He was in a theater eating popcorn and watching a movie....with Wes.
Kinda a waste of time solving someone else's murder.

I suppose if there was a murder to be solved it would be Ruby murdering Oswald.
That was never satisfactorily explained.
Other than sheer coincidence and dumb luck combined with sudden impulse. Please. What a crock.

Mick has made some very good points above showing Wes' attempts to modify history. This is not faulty memory, he has either a Sixth Floor Museum staffer or news reporter with him at these interviews whom go right along with his adaptation. They know what actually happened yet play along with this revision.

The coverup that Wes was a part of is crumbling. 

Strange Wes never admits he let Lee drive his car either.
Wouldn't Wes help teach his rider to drive before his drivers examination tests.
Strange he never admits Lee came over to the house. What was the Randle force field activated?
Strange Wes never admits to eating lunch with Lee.
Strange Lee went hunting in the SU but doesn't ever ask Wes the great white hunter about hunting or did he?
Wes claims no discussions of anything except the weather and baby bullcrap. Sure Wes? When Castor brings in rifles not a peep from Wes or to Wes from Lee about them?
Whom believes anything Wes is putting out any more. I doubt a Grand Jury would.

What mail order house did Wes get his Enfield from?
Feds would have traced its purchase. Where is the report?
Was Hoover and the G-men in DC too busy, or just uninformed about Wesley's rifle?
Took less than a day to track the supposed purchase of the MC and tie it back to Hidell.
What was the delay with the Enfield? Feds too busy losing and destroying other evidence?

Mick Purdy

Ed, all fantastic points.

Something caught my eye in your post and I'm singling it out here for serious consideration. Its been mentioned before now but it needs to be revisited over and over.....I am absolutely convinced that Wes hooked up with Lee after the assassination and they ended up at the theatre together.

So when you say: He was in a theater eating popcorn and watching a movie....with Wes, I couldn't agree more!

And this from Lee Farley:

I'm beginning to think, seriously, that Frazier left with Oswald. I don't believe Frazier stayed after the assassination. If he had, he'd have been rounded up with the others and taken to be interviewed.

April 3, 2015 at 7:38 PM Flag Quote & Reply

I think its time we started to seriously consider the fact that in all likelihood Wes left with Lee and ended up at the Texas theatre together. IMHO

In the broader context of Wes and the relationship he had with Lee, is it time we also had a much closer look at just how Wes got that job at the TSBD and how just how coincidental it really was that these two fellows (Frazier and Oswald) should come to meet.

I'm pegging Wes as a possible "shadow", and that it was no coincident that these two chaps ended up on the stairs together immediately following the assassination.

Makes the claims of how Wes got that job a little more interesting to be sure! Makes a whole lot of things a lot more interesting......

Mick Purdy

If you are in any doubt about Wes being with Oswald on the steps after the assassination, I urge you to listen and in particular watch Frazier answer the questions relating to what he was doing immediately following the shots........

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

@ 12-36 
G.M. Did you see Lee Oswald at this time after the assassination?
BWF. Um (long pause) No.

Listen through until : 15-40

If you are not convinced after listening and IMO more importantly watching Wes answer these questions, that he is a liar, then there's not much more I can say or do to convince anyone otherwise.

Mick Purdy

Greg Parker wrote:One more thing... Frazier was brought down from Huntsville at around the time that a Dallas motorcade was given the go-ahead and the venue decided. At that point, the route was always going to take JFK past the book depository. There is also the discrepancy about how Frazier got the job. He claimed he got it through an Irving employment agency. Linnie claimed she suggested it to him. Not aware of any evidence the TSBD even used any employment agencies, but I believe they may have used the TEC In any case, I have long suspected that Wes was placed in there as part of the overall plan.

This needs to be looked at very closely IMO.

Mick Purdy
 
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
 
Anyone who can say that Linnie Mae Randle and Wesley Frazier are just ordinary witnesses, I mean what can you say?
I don't know anyone in this case who was snapped up to a polygraph at midnight on the 22nd at the DPD.

I don't know anyone who was so panic stricken that the operator could not get a reading on him.

I don't know anyone who had an Enfield rifle in their house, the first rifle reported used in the assassination.

I don't know any witness who the DPD tried to deliberately cover up what they did to him as they did with Frazier.

I don't know any witness with who the DPD deliberately deep sixed the evidence of what happened to him to the point that it completely disappeared from the archives.

I don't know any testimony in which both witnesses to one event have been impeached.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

Greg Parker wrote:Colin,

the stepfather? Interesting thought. All we know about him his that he was a violent drunk who Beull avoided at all times when they all lived in Huntsville. The hospital visit on such a day does give pause. Also back in those days (here at least) hospitals had hard and visiting hours which were rigidly applied...yet he appears to have been there several hours, unless I'm mistaken...

Greg,
You say:
All we know about him his that he was a violent drunk who Beull avoided at all times when they all lived in Huntsville.
Where does this come from?

Greg Parker

As a teenager in Huntsville, Mr. Frazier had deftly balanced high school and several part-time jobs while trying to stay out of the way of an abusive, alcoholic stepfather.

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com.au/2008/11/oswald-co-worker-no-longer-silent-about.html

Not sure whether Aynesworth got this from interviewing Frazier, or from an FBI doc -- I thought the latter exists, but if it does, I can't relocate it.

Mick Purdy
 
We do need to try and find out a little more about Wes before he arrived in Irving.

Stan Dane



Mick Purdy

Mick Purdy
 
In the broader context of Wes and the relationship he had with Lee, is it time we also had a much closer look at just how Wes got that job at the TSBD and just how coincidental it really was that these two fellows (Frazier and Oswald) should come to meet.
 
I'm pegging Wes as a possible "shadow," and that it was no coincident (should have read coincidence) that these two chaps ended up on the stairs together immediately following the assassination.
 
Makes the claims of how Wes got that job a little more interesting to be sure!

Makes a whole lot of things a lot more interesting......

Mick Purdy
 
Consider Dorothy Roberts and her seeing Bill Randle driving Lee to work on the 22/11/63 in the morning.
 
According to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paine’s and Randle’s, on November 22, 1963, at 6 pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning.

 
 
Roberts address is 2519 W Fifth Street Irving in the map above, that is to the left of the Paine’s at 2515. The Randle’s house is to the right and on the corner at Westbrook Drv. And W Fifth. The house on the far right hand northern corner of W Fifth and Westbrook.
 
If Wes was telling the truth and Lee met him at the Randle home that morning it is a near certainty that Wes would have departed south along Westbrook and made a left turn into W Fifth Street on their way in to Dallas.
 
If the Schneider’s have reported accurately Roberts sighting of Randle driving Lee into work then this would make sense as Randle would have collected Lee from the Paine’s and passed Roberts home on the way into the TSBD.
 
Either way it’s hard to imagine that she has mistaken Randle for someone else. The fact she has said she saw Oswald with Randle makes it hard to believe she has been mistaken about either of them.
 
Roberts would have known being the neighborhood snoop who Oswald was and by sight, and I’d be very confident she would have known who Randle was too.
 
If Wes was telling the truth about Lee coming to his house, then He had no reason to pass Robert’s house whatsoever.
 
IMO there is no way Roberts has mistaken Wes for Bill Randle, not for a second.

IMO it’s highly likely Roberts actually saw Bill Randle and Lee together that morning as she has stated, it’s hard to imagine the village gossip getting this wrong.

Smee

Mick Purdy wrote:Let's take a look at Randle's version of events on Friday morning.
 
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did.
 
Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport.
 
Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.
 
Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?
 
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
 
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.
 
Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.
 
Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that.
 
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
 
Did Randle really see Oswald through that window approaching the house, moving across the driveway over to Wes's car?

 
On the previous version of the ROKC forum, I wrote extensively about the so-called sighting of LHO by LMR and the various issues I saw with it. I cannot find the writings now but, going from memory, briefly in summary:
 
1. Look at the photographs shown in CE 442 

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0096a.htm 

and CE447 

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0097a.htm 

Note how high the kitchen window that LMR was supposedly looking out of when LHO walked back after supposedly placing the 'package' in BWF's car - if Essie was sitting at the table, do you really think that she would have been able to see through that window and see someone standing outside?
 
2. CE447 - and CE446 - are interesting for another reason - the car shown in Frazier's usual parking space is not Frazier's car - whose car is it? Also, the car shown inside the carport in each photograph is different. Photographs taken at different times?

3. I think it's been mentioned previously but CE446 is also interesting in that LMR supposedly saw LHO placing the package in BWF's car from there - really? Through those slats?...

Terry Martin

I also find it odd that the Paine's just coincidentally lived so close to the Randles. Of course, the CIA maybe had enough informers on their payroll that every city block in America might have had one, but Oswald becoming in touch with Ruth Paine and then BWF moving from Huntsville just makes it all seem like chess players were positioning their pieces on the board...

Checkmate?

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Agreed Stan! We don't need to solve the Tippit murder as Oswald was not there. He did not shoot Tippit.
He was in a theater eating popcorn and watching a movie....with Wes.
Kinda a waste of time solving someone else's murder.

I suppose if there was a murder to be solved it would be Ruby murdering Oswald.
That was never satisfactorily explained.
Other than sheer coincidence and dumb luck combined with sudden impulse. Please. What a crock.

Mick has made some very good points above showing Wes' attempts to modify history. This is not faulty memory, he has either a Sixth Floor Museum staffer or news reporter with him at these interviews whom go right along with his adaptation. They know what actually happened yet play along with this revision.

The coverup that Wes was a part of is crumbling. 

Strange Wes never admits he let Lee drive his car either.
Wouldn't Wes help teach his rider to drive before his drivers examination tests.
Strange he never admits Lee came over to the house. What was the Randle force field activated?
Strange Wes never admits to eating lunch with Lee.
Strange Lee went hunting in the SU but doesn't ever ask Wes the great white hunter about hunting or did he?
Wes claims no discussions of anything except the weather and baby bullcrap. Sure Wes? When Castor brings in rifles not a peep from Wes or to Wes from Lee about them?
Whom believes anything Wes is putting out any more. I doubt a Grand Jury would.

What mail order house did Wes get his Enfield from?
Feds would have traced its purchase. Where is the report?
Was Hoover and the G-men in DC too busy, or just uninformed about Wesley's rifle?
Took less than a day to track the supposed purchase of the MC and tie it back to Hidell.
What was the delay with the Enfield? Feds too busy losing and destroying other evidence?

Mick Purdy

Ed, all fantastic points.

Something caught my eye in your post and I'm singling it out here for serious consideration. Its been mentioned before now but it needs to be revisited over and over.....I am absolutely convinced that Wes hooked up with Lee after the assassination and they ended up at the theatre together.

So when you say: He was in a theater eating popcorn and watching a movie....with Wes, I couldn't agree more!

And this from Lee Farley:

I'm beginning to think, seriously, that Frazier left with Oswald. I don't believe Frazier stayed after the assassination. If he had, he'd have been rounded up with the others and taken to be interviewed.

April 3, 2015 at 7:38 PM Flag Quote & Reply

I think its time we started to seriously consider the fact that in all likelihood Wes left with Lee and ended up at the Texas theatre together. IMHO

In the broader context of Wes and the relationship he had with Lee, is it time we also had a much closer look at just how Wes got that job at the TSBD and how just how coincidental it really was that these two fellows (Frazier and Oswald) should come to meet.

I'm pegging Wes as a possible "shadow", and that it was no coincident that these two chaps ended up on the stairs together immediately following the assassination.

Makes the claims of how Wes got that job a little more interesting to be sure! Makes a whole lot of things a lot more interesting......

Mick Purdy

And wouldn't it make a whole lot of sense if Lee was left to buy the popcorn while Wes went to the toilet.....

Just thinkin' outta loud.

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

Mick Purdy wrote:Let's take a look at Randle's version of events on Friday morning.
 
Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did.
 
Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport.
 
Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.
 
Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?
 
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
 
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.
 
Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.
 
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.
 
Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that.
 
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
 
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
 
Did Randle really see Oswald through that window approaching the house, moving across the driveway over to Wes's car?

 
On the previous version of the ROKC forum, I wrote extensively about the so-called sighting of LHO by LMR and the various issues I saw with it. I cannot find the writings now but, going from memory, briefly in summary:
 
1. Look at the photographs shown in CE 442 

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0096a.htm 

and CE447 

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0097a.htm 

Note how high the kitchen window that LMR was supposedly looking out of when LHO walked back after supposedly placing the 'package' in BWF's car - if Essie was sitting at the table, do you really think that she would have been able to see through that window and see someone standing outside?
 
2. CE447 - and CE446 - are interesting for another reason - the car shown in Frazier's usual parking space is not Frazier's car - whose car is it? Also, the car shown inside the carport in each photograph is different. Photographs taken at different times?

3. I think it's been mentioned previously but CE446 is also interesting in that LMR supposedly saw LHO placing the package in BWF's car from there - really? Through those slats?...

Mick Purdy

All great points.
And this from an earlier post:

Mick Purdy

Don’t be tempted to under estimate the value of the crooked testimony of Linnie Mae Randle when she uttered the words to Ball,

"at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly"

That is an enormous lie. And IMO suggests persuasively tht she helped frame Oswald. We know If her story about seeing Lee crossing that Street were true, then there would have never been a reason to “see who was fixing to come to her back door”

And she also would have known who it was because she already knew Wes was driving Lee to work from the supposed chat about it the night before.

It is that simple IMO.

If what she said under oath was true then it’s reprehensible and inconceivable Randle wasn’t cautioned at that moment by her examiner Mr. Ball.

That one sentence, as Ball would have known, should have placed her sighting of Lee crossing that Street with a package in jeopardy.

That one tiny itty bitty tiny wincy lie, allowed a free pass by Ball, was instrumental in helping to create the Legend of a gun toting LHO.

It’s Randle’s ever so damaging testimony of peering through that kitchen door albeit only briefly, but long enough to see Oswald walk to the car, and place a package on either the floor or back seat of Wes’s car.

This coupled with Frazier’s lie which we know about thanks to Edward Shield’s HSCA interview about the TSBD parking lot 1 walk into the building which lends enormous weight to my contention IMO to the Fact Oswald did not drive with Frazier

The real issue now IMO is to discover why Frazier and Randle lied, and get someone to ask him while he's still alive.

Lee Farley

Mick,

It is that simple. All the rest, although important to work through, is smoke and mirrors. She knew Oswald and she knew Oswald was being taken to work. All the bollocks about peering through windows, opening doors and acting all cloak and dagger is shite. Didn't happen.

Did you know that in the damn-awful mini-series The Kennedy's they actually got the story right? See if you can look it up on YouTube. As far as I'm concerned they nailed the morning lift to work from a logistics perspective - - minus the giant rifle of course.

You've done excellent work on this. A summary post is needed to gather all the pertinent points.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

I also find it odd that the Paine's just coincidentally lived so close to the Randles. Of course, the CIA maybe had enough informers on their payroll that every city block in America might have had one, but Oswald becoming in touch with Ruth Paine and then BWF moving from Huntsville just makes it all seem like chess players were positioning their pieces on the board...

Checkmate?

Mick Purdy

Not sure about Checkmate, Terry. But Hasan is getting into territory on his most recent thread which could see the whole Irving thing dismantled.

I think you used the adjective "mind blowing" and Ed saw fit to write "earth shattering" with regards to Hassan's piece if true. Think it's safe to say it would be "mind blowingly earth shattering"

Did you happen to listen to the C-span Vid with regards to what Wes remembers after the shots? I say priceless is an undersatement.

Mick Purdy

I've got a question for Wes.
How does War is Hell end?

Bet you don't know!

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

I've got a question for Wes.
How does War is Hell end?

Bet you don't know!

Mick Purdy

Come on Buell, come clean.
You dropped your little commie mate off at the theatre, said you'd be right in..... just had to park the car.
Probably even asked Lee to get some popcorn.
You never did get to see those opening credits...Hey Buell!