Oswald and the Russian Language

Taking down the Tinfoil hatters and the nutters in one article

http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

If i'm not very much mistaken I suspect that's the closest anyone has ever got to a complete unbiased honest appraisal of Oswald's linguistic skills.

The development of those skills, and how his burgeoning skills were honed.

Greg's paradigm busting work combined with the understanding that the key to debunking the whole " Harvey the Hungarian doppelganger who spoke Russian like a native" fantasy is the real, historical Lee Harvey Oswalds ENGLISH not only drives a stake through the heart of the undead corpse of said doppelganger but finally ( and definitively) solves the mystery of Oswald's linguistic skills.

Yet again i'm left totally appalled at the lengths Armstrong was prepared to go to in order to keep his absurd fable alive.
Once again he distorts a witnesses testimony.

All those people who parrot the agnostic line " well I don't necessarily believe his wider narrative but look at all the great research!! All those files too!"

They should all take a long hard honest look at the alchemy he attempted to perform with Stout's testimony.

Transmuting the facts into the fool's gold of delusion.

How much time and energy has been chased trying to prove his fool's gold was actually the real thing?
Stripling, Stout, North Dakota, Bolton Ford, Myrtle Owens, Dorothy Marcum.....the list just goes on and on...

I don't want to divert any attention from Greg's essay...Oswald's linguistic abilities are arguably the most mythologised, poorly understood part of his biography, this essay hacks through all the myth making, all the bullshit and the chicanery...

greg_parker wrote:Taking down the Tinfoil hatters and he nutters in one article

http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

Brilliant stuff mate.

Thanks Greg. You are rendering a public service by your sensible credible research.

Oh man I cannot wait to read this. Thanks Greg!

By Armstrong's holy underpants, that is a tremendous piece of work, Greg (and Jim)! At last we have a plausible account of how and when Oswald was able to acquire his knowledge of Russian in the Marines.

Buddy Allen Simco is a name I don't recall hearing before, but he's a valuable and credible witness. It's interesting that he doesn't see anything unlikely in the idea that Oswald was being cultivated for a false defection. His blog is here: https://alsimco.blog/. It's one long page, so you'll need to hit CTRL + F to find the passages that deal with Oswald.

I'm not sure there's room on the 'Harvey and Lee' coffin for yet another nail, but if there is, this article will be the final one. We won't be hearing any of that nonsense again, I hope.

One question: is it too late to change the web address of the article? Instead of http://www.jfkconversations.com/new-page, something like http://www.jfkconversations.com/oswald-and-the-russian-language would be a lot more search-engine friendly.

Thanks for all the feedback. 

My involvement was only because of Jim who by his own admission, hounded me into it. I was reluctant until he sent me Stout's HSCA interview. It got rolling from there.

JIm's suspicions were based on his own experiences as an army medic in Vietnam. He has a long interest in the case and has quietly been contacting authors and researchers over many years. He was once even offered a job as a researcher by Harold Weisberg. Unfortunately Harold could not pay much and Jim liked to eat occasionally, so he had to say no...

Bottom line - I was amazed at how much we dug up once we got rolling. The time in the brig matching the time of immersion training or intense short courses followed by a test 6 months later, were the things that I found most convincing since it fit with how it worked in the military timewise.

Jeremy, after finishing this, I went off to read Norwood's piece. I wouldn't even know where to start with the way evidence has been abused and cherry picked, but I will say that the misuse of Stout by both Epstein and Armstrong is disgusting.

Never noticed the name problem. Will pass that on to Alan.

The link has been updated to
http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

barto wrote:FBI - Rosaleen Quinn - Oswald Studying Russian Dec 13 1963

Oswald Russian Language Studies While Being a Marine - NYT Dec 24 1963.

Thanks Bart.

Seems Eugene Holmberg was spreading the bs early.

The test Oswald took was not the one you take to get into Defense Language Institute. That is the other one mentioned in the article - the DLAB whihich tests your ability to lean a new language. The test Lee took was a proficiency test - which is the one you would take DURING or AFTER study at the Institute to measure prohgress.

Otherwise, it is used to test you for eligibility for a monthly allowance, to become an interpreter... or how well you would cope in real life situations among natiives. Oswald took it for the latter reason. I doubt Osald said he "flunked".  Overall, he got two more right than wrong in what is a very very tough test. They obviously thought he did well enough to proceed with the mission.

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Rn-d2uJG73I_4Qj6EqaW-dEuDqQmluTE/view?usp=sharing

Paul Roderick Gregory

This CIA document is from Malcolm, I have no idea the significance of this, could be something...since Arnesto Rodriguez ran the Berlitz language school in NO

The following below was his explanation when I asked him what this doc was about.

Francis Favorini was a Security Office background checker....the docs refer to Emilio America Rodriguez......a great CIA agent who despite suffering type 1 diabetes worked hard for CIA....he was in a stay behind net after the Bay of Pigs in Cuba and was involved in the search and eventual finding of Che Guevara....he was on a mission to Spain when he suffered a major,fatal heart attack at Dulles Airport in 1967.....the last doc discusses the posthumous award of DIM ( CIA Distinguished Medal of Merit.)..he was an extraordinary agent......his father was Arnesto Rodriguez Sr,who was also a CIA asset (crypt AM/JUTE 1) his brother Arnesto Rodriguez Jr ran the Berlitz Language School in New Orleans and met with Oswald in 1963...the family lived in New Orleans and Arnesto Jr was a PSI for the FBI in New Orleans........

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v0Soo2a-XZ9Nr2qso470g8C4_vzp7184/view?usp=sharing

Rosalyn And Sam

Rosalyn Laventhal was a political activists dream.
She was signing up more blacks than NAACP!

Emilo's Brother....

Where are those TAPES!!!!

Larry praises Greg's essay.

https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2022/08/18/oswald-and-russia/

Vinny wrote:Larry praises Greg's essay.

https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2022/08/18/oswald-and-russia/

Thanks Vinny. You should be a wicket keeper, Nothing gets past you.

Credit rightly belongs with co-author, Jim Purtell, who basically nagged me into the joint project. He was convinced we could learn how Oswald obtained his proficiency. I was nowhere near as confident. 

But Jim was right. I think we nailed it, or got very close to doing so.

Welcome Greg.

I see David "the Bloviator" Lifton has made a startling discovery as to Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language with a Polish accent and that other members of the 13 Inch Head forum have jumped on board, bringing Dr Norwood out oh hiding to proclaim that Oswald was proficient way back to 1953 when he lived in North Dakota. FFS. What a shitload to have to wade through.

I would like to say thanks though to Larry Hancock for recommending the article by me and  Jim. 

The thread in question is here

Because Lifton is truly such a bloviator, and I now have all the supporters of it to deal with as well, I will only address the main points Lifton has made. Okay. And rip him a new one for a blatant contradiction.

LESSONS IN JAPAN

... there is no evidence that Oswald received any language instruction while in Japan. 

On the contrary, there is very good evidence for it. 

Zack Stout


Daniel Powers


One of the books Oswald had at the time of death fits the discription of the book Powers saw



Opportunity for deep study was provided through his alleged brig time which matches the time plus travel needed as per this quote from my article

Marines who have completed significant training programs may in some cases be retested in less than 6 months as an exception to policy [i.e. 6 months being the policy]. Requests for exception must be submitted for approval to CMC (MP) in accordance with reference (e). Requests for exception must document significant training. Normally, this training consists of at least 6 weeks of immersion training or 6 weeks (5 hours a day) of classroom training. 


Oswald spent 45 days in the brig between June 27 and August 13. 6 weeks is 42 days. But when adding on debriefing and travel time, 45 days makes perfect sense in relation to Oswald attending the above course. Even the testing regime fits. He took the Russian exam 6 months, give or take a few days, after his alleged brig time ended. As Jim has pointed out to me, not a single person has ever come forward saying they served brig time with Oswald, or stood guard on him. 

Donald Peter Camarata: Knew Oswald at Santa Ana. He told the FBI that Oswald was rumored to have taken Russian language courses while in Japan.

It seems to me very likely that Mr Lifton is making the "no evidence" of learning in Japan simply to boost his own thesis, not on any evidentiary basis. 

STUDY WHILE AT SANTA ANA POST JAPAN

Also, after his return to the U.S. (Dec. 1958), and during his time at El Toro Marine Base (which is in Southern California, in the vicinity of Santa Ana), there is no indication that he received any language instruction at Defense Language Institute (“DLI”) 

What there IS evidence of is his ongoing revision and self-learning after the deep training he received while in Japan.

Fellow Marines Buddy Simco, Paul Edward Murphy, Owen Devanovich and others all talked about Oswald reading or learning Russian at Santa Ana. No DLI required. 

Richard Dennis Call: Knew Oswald at Santa Ana. Told the FBI that Oswald was learning Russian through phonographic records.

LANGUAGE STUDY IN THE MILITARY
A note here is appropriate: Unlike Lifton and every other person who ever wrote about this - I took the time to study how the miltary teaches languages, how people are selected etc. I did that as someone who has not been in the military, Jim otoh, served as a medic in Vietnam, but had no reason to ever consider languages while in the army. In short, Lifton and most everyone else who has written about this, with possible exceptions like Newman - who may have had some personal knowledge of the subject - has done so from a place of total ignorance. Lifton's in particular shines through brightly.

The miltary administers a test to determine a persons aptitude for LEARNING a second language. This is the Defense Language Aptitude Battery (DLAB). It may be given on entry into the military or it may be given through ROTC or CAP to potential recruits. 

And as I showed in the article - IT WAS HIS OWN UNIT THAT WAS PROVIDING HIS LEARNING MATERIAL. 

It is difficult to study for the DLAB in the traditional way, as the DLAB is designed to measure language-learning potential, not current knowledge. Because the testing involves a gibberish language, there is no way to create a traditional study guide, however, studying the grammatical rules that apply to each specific section of the test and knowing what to expect, will give you a definite advantage. The DLAB test scores are ultimately used to determine the service member’s eligibility for
language training in accordance with (IAW) AR 611-6 and for reclassification into Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) 37F, 97E, or 98G IAW DA PAM 611-21. You may take the test to fulfill a requirement, such as Special Forces or the Olmsted scholarship. You may also take it if you are trying to get a job that specifically requires language training, such as a linguist, cryptographer, or signal intelligence.  
https://moodyfss.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/DLAB-Information.pdf

THE CAP UNDERGROUND ANTI-COMMUNIST PROGRAM
As I published in my book, the CAP developed a program that involved domestic and overseas missions. Part of the training for the overseas component was learning Russian. David Ferrie called his recruits into this program "the Omnipotents".

In short, although not stated in the article, I believe Oswald was given the DLAB while in the CAP and showed his innate ability in the process. 

THE ALLEGED POLISH ACCENT
The repeated assertion that there are many references to Oswald speaking with a Polish accent is just not true. There is ONE assertion and one only - Peter Gregory. 

Marina's claim that she thought he was from a Baltic state because of his accent, and had no idea he was American, is countered by Titovits who interviewed the person who introduced Marina to Oswald. That person told Tivotets that he did indeed tell Marina he was American. Titovits himself pegged Oswald as speaking Russian with an American accent. 

But it may be that he did pick up a Polish inflection from his friendship with the Zigers - a Polish family. As I have said, many of those on the spectrum can pick up accents, as well as languages easily. 

There are no mysteries, except those concocted in the minds of primitives and conspiracy theorists. There are ALWAYS logical answers based on real-world empirical evidence, found through real-world science and persistence.

Oswald learned Russian. There are a limited number of real-world ways in which this could be have happened. A fairy tale about CIA doppelganger programs is not one of them. Being tutored by a Polish woman near Santa Ana is a real-world possibility. But there is not a single piece of evidence to corroborate Lifton's alleged witnesses. 

Along with Jim Purtell, I have produced an article that is full of corroboration - and facts about how the Language programs work in the military. It will stand the test of time, unlike other attempts to solve this (non) mystery. 


Now for the Australian tradition of Arse-kicking

Lifton starts part 2 with DSL Note:  In order to avoiding a situation in which a number of people are subject to a numerous inquiries from various students of this case, I have changed the key names in the account which follows.


Okay, so he is protecting his witnesses from "numerous inquiries" by "various students" of this case" by changing their names.

But then later on, he states..."In Final Charade, I'll use the real names." So, when the book is published, they will suddenly need no protection from the "various students" of this case who in Lifton's mind anyway, will hound them? They are on their own to deal with that shit? Lifton no longer cares because he's got a fucking book published?

Or are is he taking a leaf out of Groden's book and waiting to publish after certain people have died and therefore cannot dispute his claims? 

I will deal with those who responded in that thread ASAP.

In response to Larry posting the link to my article, Lifton stated in part

Larry: Surely you realize that "finding the right book" does not address the question (much less answer the question) of Oswald's fluency, in Russian as spoken; i.e., "spoken Russian." Fluency in "spoken" Russian cannot be achieved without a "dialogue partner." 

Presumably "the book" being referred to here is one of the Russian language books among Oswald's possessions and matching one that he was seen with in Japan.

So the point is, after saying .. "there is no evidence that Oswald received any language instruction while in Japan", Lifton blithely concedes that he was wrong, but just blows it off as a single piece of evidence, conveniently ignoring that we named multiple witnesses who had first or second-hand knowledge of his learning Russian while in South East Asia, including rumors at Santa Ana that he had "taken courses" while stationed at Atsugi. The only opportunities for such courses were his inexplicable brig and hospital time - the latter of which is agreed upon by every military person spoken to - and the former of which is made inexplicable by Jim tracking down those with first-hand knowledge of the brig. Although the information was not included in the article, that particular brig was no more than an overnight drunk tank or for those late back from Cinderella liberty.

Lifton downplaying the entire article as coming down to "finding the right book" is about as dishonest as it gets. He is a self-indulgent, egotistical, bloviating gronk whose thoughts are about as useful as a third fucking armpit.

The ineveitable Harvey and Lee talking points have entered the Riussian language thread started by Lifton. This time by Dr Norwood. To be fair, it was the Bloviator who summoned the ghosts of Talking Points Past.

Mrs. Cole’s son, William Henry Timmer, was subsequently interviewed by the FBI, and a 7-page interview was prepared.  Timmer recalled that he and Oswald rode bikes, went swimming, and visited the local library together.  Timmer also noted that Oswald introduced himself as “Harvey,”

So this answers the question of whether it was "Harvey" or "Lee". Timmer himself says it was "Harvey". 

Yet the report of the FBI interview with Timmer suggests the young boy acting like "Lee" - with the sole exception of reading and talking about communim.

Why do I say that? Timmer states he thought the kid was "nuts" and tried mot to have much to do with him. "Harvey" would also pick on younger children and liked fighting.

Timmer also claimed that "Harvey" was much older than the other kids in the group and thought it strange that a kid that old would be riding a bike. "Harvey" did not go to school" and would brag that one day he was going to kill the president.

So we obviously have a different doppelganger here to the "Harvey" seen by Dr Kurian and known to good old Myra the teacher in NO. We also have a blabbermouth who was going around giving this long-term plan to kill Kennedy away. 

Timmer himself said the town was full of migrant workers. Many of them would be itenerant as this boy claimed to be (saying he had been all over the country - and indeed, only staying in Stanley for around 2 months). Some no doubt belonged to unions and had communist sympathies. According to census data, "Harvey" was in the top 100 boys names during the 1930s when this kid was born  https://www.ssa.gov/oact/babynames/decades/names1930s.html so meeting a kid named Harvey who travelled a lot, in an town full of itinerant workers, does not seem particularly unusual. 

In any case, Timmer's story got no support from any of his family or friends, save his mother, Alma Cole, she being the person who alerted authorities. However they lived on Alma's mother's (Mary Wurtz) property in Stanley and she, along with everyone else named, had no idea what Alma or Tim were talking about.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57746#relPageId=92

Bottom line: this is all uncorroborated fantasy or confused memory.  The Bloviator does get somethings right. The "ND" where he supposedly moved to was really a poorly handwritten "NO".

One last thing: even though the FBI report states that Timmy had no idea what the "communist" literature was that "Harvey" carried around, the links Dr Norwood provided to essays on the subject by ohn Delane Williams & Gary Severson borrow from the inevitable 1990s Armstrong interview of Timmer. In that interview, Timmer apparently did remember some detail on this. "Harvey" was some 7 inches taller than the 12 year old Timmer, his father worked on the oil fields, and that Timmer had been with "Harvey" when "Harvey" stole a book by Marx from the town library. 

Let all of that sink in and explain how apart from the Marx book, it actually fits the "Harvey and Lee" mantra. 

Recall that the VERY small Harvey had been seen by Dr Kurian not all that long prior to this. Now he is suddenly a few years older and seven inches taller than a 12 year old - and has acquried an itinerent oil worker as a father!

But let's not leave out the stolen book because just out of curiosuty, I checked on boooks banned in the US during the 1950s.

What I found was this from wiki

Books have been suppressed for their political content by local governments and school districts. In particular books that some perceive to promote anarchism, communism or socialism have a history of being suppressed in the United States. The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels was frequently challenged and widely restricted in libraries because of its communist ideas, especially during the Red Scare in the 1950s. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_censorship_in_the_United_States

Again from Wiki
As the Republican ROC controlled state politics into the early 1950s, the Democratic Party and the NPL, the state's two liberal parties, merged into the North Dakota Democratic-NPL Party by 1956. The Republican Party and the Democratic-NPL Party became the two main parties in the state, which has continued into the early 21st century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_North_Dakota#:~:text=Today%2C%20the%20major%20political%20parties,the%20Democratic%20Party%20in%201956.)

Is anyone really gonna buy that Stanley, ND had a copy of any works by Marx in 1953? 

More from Dr Norwood

Russian language, literature, and culture, as well as Marxist ideology, were preoccupations of Oswald from a very early age.  As early as 1953, Oswald was reading communist literature, which he discussed with a friend in Stanley, North Dakota. 

This was the third Oswald. The one who read a lot, had an oil-worker father, was taller and older than Harvey and Lee, liked to fight and steal books from libraries that they never had to start with. 

In October, 1957, Oswald attended a performance of Mussorgsky’s opera Boris Godunov in New Orleans.  The production was given in Russian with no subtitles. 

No subtitles for a live opera? What a shock! What is the difference between seeing an opera in Italian and one in Russian if you only speak English? Did Palmer McBride speak Russian?  What a moronic comment by the good doc. 

In any case, I have sent an inquiry to the New Orleans Opera company.

In 1958, Oswald discussed with a friend the publication of Boris Pasternak’s novel Dr. Zhivago in a new English translation. 

More of the McBride rubbish which he apparently only confided to Armstrong.

At this time, he had in his possession copies of Marx’s The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. 

Stolen no doubt from the Stanley library in 1953.

In his final year in the Marines, he not only impressed Rosaleen Quinn, the aunt of a Marine buddy, with his Russian-language skills; he was also reading Russian-language newspapers at the time.

I knew if you concentrated hard enough, you could get some things right.

There is no indication that he was studying Russian because he was already fully competent in reading and speaking skills, as well as one of the most challenging components of an extremely difficult language:  idiomatic Russian. 

On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

What is the evidence for his speaking "idiomatic" Russian prior to living in Minsk?  I don't doubt that this was likely part of any training he had but I have not seen any evidence either way that mastered "Idiomatic Russian". 

Additionally, he was known to have read in the original Russian such authors as Tolstoy, Turgenev, and Dostoevsky, and he even preferred to speak in Russian, as opposed to English. 

Stretching the evidenvce again. The only book by any of those authors he is known to have was"The Idiot" as it was a 20th birthday present from his Moscow Intourist Guide.

He did have and read Russian magazines and newspapers. In fact, he even had a Russian joke book. I know because I interviewedDr  Ruanne Peters (nee Kloepfer) who told me Oswald gave it to her to help her practice her Russian. 

Methinks the complexity of the books is being deliberately exaggerated for the sake of various theories. Though DeM was shocked at Oswald's ability to read this material, he simply assumed that Oswald must have had training. He did not say only a native speaker could do it. And in point of fact, his Intourist Guide giving him a copy of The Idiot is pretty much proof that you don't need to be a native speaker to read it. Or maybe the Ruskies knew about "The Oswald Project" LOL.