Prayer Man Poll

Terry W. Martin wrote:Goban was right about Carmine wanting the last word, even if that was the only topic of his rejoinder.

I wish that people who get into semantic squabbling matches would take it elsewhere - maybe a thread called My Logic is Better than Yours, or some such - and let the thread be only about issues ON topic.

Or is my logic shredded?
(in which case, please move this post to that new thread... thanks)

Goban Saor wrote:Terry,

Thanks. Though for the sake of accuracy, my point about Carmine’s questionable posting tactics wasn’t the main point of my post – as far as I was concerned anyway.

The main point was to refocus on the thread topic, Prayer Man, which I tried to do in the second sentence of my post in which I referred to ‘the conclusive evidence adduced earlier on this thread that Prayer Man is Oswald.’
 

Paul,

No need to apologise as far as I’m concerned at least. Carmine is the one who needs to apologise for his questionable tactics.

Truthseeker wrote:The heavy set woman in front of Buell Frasier looks like the person who Duncan on the educational forum was referring to as the praying man.

Truthseeker wrote:I cannot speak for Duncan's motives. I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken. I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 

Why is the PM not Oswald? 

There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. I asked him specifically if LHO was near him on the steps of TBD at anytime. He was emphatic that he was not. Frasier spent some time on the steps before going back inside. It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him. All TBD employees were directly asked in a questionnaire if anyone had seen Oswald during the time of the shots. Not one person that we know of replied in the affirmative.

If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker? Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke? Did Baker and Roy Truly conspire to lie about their encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom? We know that Baker ran into the TBD by film footage? He and Truly were seen by other witnesses. Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs. So far their testimony as to their actions are verified. But now they are going to lie about their encounter with Oswald? 

Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom. Later FBI retimed Mrs. Reid time from when she left the steps and returned to her 2nd floor office where she spots Oswald. It was 2 minutes. This coincides with the officer Baker encounter. Either the FBI was able to get all these people to conspire to lie or these are the true facts. It is highly unlikely Oswald could have been outside on the steps and have made his rendezvous with officer Baker who was trotting and Oswald who would have no need to hurry upstairs to meet at the same time. If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.

Truthseeker wrote:I cannot speak for Duncan's motives. I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken. I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 

Why is the PM not Oswald? 

There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. I asked him specifically if LHO was near him on the steps of TBD at anytime. He was emphatic that he was not. Frasier spent some time on the steps before going back inside. It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him. All TBD employees were directly asked in a questionnaire if anyone had seen Oswald during the time of the shots. Not one person that we know of replied in the affirmative.

If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker? Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke? Did Baker and Roy Truly conspire to lie about their encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom? We know that Baker ran into the TBD by film footage? He and Truly were seen by other witnesses. Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs. So far their testimony as to their actions are verified. But now they are going to lie about their encounter with Oswald? 

Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom. Later FBI retimed Mrs. Reid time from when she left the steps and returned to her 2nd floor office where she spots Oswald. It was 2 minutes. This coincides with the officer Baker encounter. Either the FBI was able to get all these people to conspire to lie or these are the true facts. It is highly unlikely Oswald could have been outside on the steps and have made his rendezvous with officer Baker who was trotting and Oswald who would have no need to hurry upstairs to meet at the same time. If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.

Truthseeker wrote:I cannot speak for Duncan's motives. I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken. I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 

Why is the PM not Oswald? 

There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. I asked him specifically if LHO was near him on the steps of TBD at anytime. He was emphatic that he was not. Frasier spent some time on the steps before going back inside. It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him. All TBD employees were directly asked in a questionnaire if anyone had seen Oswald during the time of the shots. Not one person that we know of replied in the affirmative.

If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker? Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke? Did Baker and Roy Truly conspire to lie about their encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom? We know that Baker ran into the TBD by film footage? He and Truly were seen by other witnesses. Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs. So far their testimony as to their actions are verified. But now they are going to lie about their encounter with Oswald? 

Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom. Later FBI retimed Mrs. Reid time from when she left the steps and returned to her 2nd floor office where she spots Oswald. It was 2 minutes. This coincides with the officer Baker encounter. Either the FBI was able to get all these people to conspire to lie or these are the true facts. It is highly unlikely Oswald could have been outside on the steps and have made his rendezvous with officer Baker who was trotting and Oswald who would have no need to hurry upstairs to meet at the same time. If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.

• I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken.
  

• I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 
  

• There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. 
  

•  I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. 
  

•  It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him.
  

• If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker?
  

•  Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke?
  

• He [Baker] and Truly were seen by other witnesses.
  

•  Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs.
  

• Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom.
  

• If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.
  

barto wrote:Your argument was gunned down yonks ago, before this forum was officially closed.

Did anyone see Joe Molina?
Did anyone see Carl Edward Jones?
Did anyone see Roy Edward Lewis?
Not one....not even Otis Williams would say Molina was on the stairs, an employee w the tsbd for 16 years! They were colleagues.....
 
Comparing other people on the steps to Oswald is comparing apples to oranges. Only Oswald had a questionnaire pass out to everyone asking if he was seen during the time of the shooting.


The coke was purchased before the event not after.

I could go on.........

  

Did anyone else besides Pauline Sanders see Baker run up the stairs?

I'm not sure, but I believe Billy Lovelady mentioned seeing a policemen run up the steps. The main witness is Roy Truly. We also have film of officer Baker running toward the steps. If you understand the scenario at the time you can understand why most people on the steps wouldn't have notice a policeman pushing his way up the steps. Three shots had just been fired. There was pandemonium going on especially down the street by the grassy knoll. Everyone on the steps would have been glancing in that direction and not right in front of them. Truly described Baker's actions as making a mad dash up the steps. It may have only been 3 or 4 seconds he was on the steps. Considering all the confusion with what just happen I believe it would have been easy to miss him. 

The 2nd fl lunchroom enc is a fugezi, Oswald was stopped on the 1st fl. in the vestibule.

I would not put my trust in the ambiguous notes of the interrogators who were all over the place as far as reporting the so call facts. 

According to Roy Truly's affidavit written on November 23 he stated he saw a policeman run up the steps of his building. He knew the policeman would not know his way around the building so he follow him into the building. The first thing that Baker did after he entered the building according to his affidavit created on November 22 was to asked if anyone knew where the elevators were. He said a man step up to him and said he would show him where the elevators were. Obviously Baker wouldn't confront anyone just inside from the doors. He did question Eddy Piper who was was standing by the back elevator. The thinking was that maybe Piper came down from the elevator. Roy Truly yelled for the elevator doors to be closed and when there was no action taken they took the stairs. 

Now Baker did mistakenly say in his affidavit that he encounter a person on the 3rd or 4th floor on the stairs. It's understandable not knowing the building and the situation that he got confused. But Roy Truly was not confused as to what happen and described the sequence of events in encountering Oswald precisely and has never changed his story. Truly gave his affidavit on the 23rd. How would Baker, Truly and Mrs. Reid conspired to create a scenario involving Oswald that never existed? You have to use common sense. The encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom was problematic for the WC. The FBI was so concerned that they had to create reenactments of the encounters with Roy Truly and Officer Baker and have a substitute to retrace Oswald steps to see if it was possible for Oswald to beat Truly and Baker.  

It is because of Officer Baker's action that I can prove Oswald is innocent beyond a reasonable doubt. If you try and take that a way based on very shallow evidence and an ambiguous figure in a grainy picture you only end up muddying the waters. 

greg parker wrote:

Truthseeker wrote:I cannot speak for Duncan's motives. I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken. I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 

Why is the PM not Oswald? 

There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. I asked him specifically if LHO was near him on the steps of TBD at anytime. He was emphatic that he was not. Frasier spent some time on the steps before going back inside. It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him. All TBD employees were directly asked in a questionnaire if anyone had seen Oswald during the time of the shots. Not one person that we know of replied in the affirmative.

If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker? Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke? Did Baker and Roy Truly conspire to lie about their encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom? We know that Baker ran into the TBD by film footage? He and Truly were seen by other witnesses. Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs. So far their testimony as to their actions are verified. But now they are going to lie about their encounter with Oswald? 

Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom. Later FBI retimed Mrs. Reid time from when she left the steps and returned to her 2nd floor office where she spots Oswald. It was 2 minutes. This coincides with the officer Baker encounter. Either the FBI was able to get all these people to conspire to lie or these are the true facts. It is highly unlikely Oswald could have been outside on the steps and have made his rendezvous with officer Baker who was trotting and Oswald who would have no need to hurry upstairs to meet at the same time. If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.

Anyone seeking the truth of any matter must first have an open mind. This post shows a decidedly closed mind. Your username is therefore a misnomer, so I'll just call you Lee for now until we find something more apropos, okay?

Let's take your arguments one by one, Lee.

• I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken.
  

Lying or mistaken about what exactly?

Truly, Baker and Reid placing Oswald on the 2nd floor for starters. 

• I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 
  

Firstly, there is much more evidence Oswald was outside than just a couple of still frames. You need to actually read the threads on the subject, or buy the book to understand that. Those who just bitch about the photo being blurry are usually agenda-driven and refuse point blank to discuss all the other evidence. Secondly, the photo is not as ambiguous as you would like it to be. There is enough detail to unambiguously show that it is a young white male with a slight receding hairline wearing workman's clothes. That rules a lot of others out. It doesn't rule Oswald out.

I agree the picture doesn't rule out Oswald (although the body shape certainly doesn't look like Oswald) but the eyewitness testimony placing Oswald somewhere else does. I used this same argument when people were saying Lovelady was Oswald. 

• There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. 
  

Correct! There is also no eyewitness to ANYONE standing in the PM position. By your reasoning, it must be an apparition. I think I'll pass on that possibility and go with a saner, terrestrial explanation. Oswald arrived late and stood behind everyone in the shadows. No one was checking behind. They were all looking at what was unfolding down on the street.

"There is also no eyewitness to ANYONE standing in the PM position."

So was everyone on the steps questioned as to who might be the PM in the picture or is this your assumption or the book's? Aren't you speculating that PM came out late and stayed in the shadows behind everyone? It certainly appears to me that he is in front of Buell Frasier not behind. In fact if he came out late it seems he would have had to excuse himself to get by Frasier leaning against the door.  Where is Lovelady and Shelley in this picture? I thought according to their testimony they did not leave the steps until they heard a female employee named Gloria, I believe, walk up and say that the President had been shot. She had been down further closer to the limo when the shooting began. 

"No one was checking behind. They were all looking at what was unfolding down on the street."

I guess I can't use this excuse to explain why so few people including Buell Frasier notice a police officer race up the steps. 

•  I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. 
  

Good for you! We'll see how he goes with under oath with a clear print of PM to look at.

The picture is ambiguous. You said so yourself. Frasier has already swore under oath he did not see LHO at the time of the shooting. I've heard someone post on this forum that Frasier was coerced into lying about seeing Oswald. Lt. Fritz tried to make Frasier sign a confession form and threatened to hit him and Buell told him if you hit me I will get in a few good licks on you before those police officers outside can come to your rescue. This is also the same guy who would not buckle to FBI coercion to changes his story about the length of the package Oswald put in his back seat.  I refuse to believe that this guy would knowingly deny seeing Oswald at the time of the shooting. He was too much of a stand up guy. When I spoke with him by phone I told him I admired the fact that he never threw Oswald under the bus like others such as Ruth Paine for example. So I naturally resent those who would accuse him of willfully denying seeing him at the time of the shooting. 

•  It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him.
  

You're on a roll, Lee! Correct again. You found the exception to the rule that no one saw him and no one lied about not seeing him. But Buell also told the FBI that he saw no strangers that day. If true, then he knew PM, wouldn't you agree?

It depends how the question was phrased to him. If they asked him if he saw anyone within the building that was a stranger might be interpreted by Frasier to mean anyone inside the building but not outside on the steps. We need to investigate that further.

• If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker?
  

It was the demolition of the 2nd floor lunchroom story which started the search for placing Oswald elsewhere. The 2nd floor lunchroom encounter never happened no matter how cool Gary Oldman looked enacting it in JFK. It is a myth created to deny Oswald his alibi.

I have not heard anything yet close to demolishing the 2nd floor lunchroom story. I've a heard a lot of innuendo and half truths. Any credible assassination researcher I've come across accept this story wholeheartedly. Just the notion that 3 people unrelated in the case of Officer Baker to Truly and Reid would make up a story of seeing Oswald on the second floor and then lying about it under oath in arguably the biggest crime in US history strains the incredulity. This begs the question why in God's name would 3 ordinary people lie about what they saw? If you suggest they were coerced into it by the conspirators, again the same question why? This scenario was extremely problematic for the WC. The first time I heard of this encounter a mere 90 seconds after the last shot sent up red flags as far as I was personally concern. Then you add Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles to the mix and the WC staff must have been pulling the hair out of their head trying to figure how to take Oswald's alibi away. And they tried to using deceptive practices. But in recent years these practices were exposed and the truth establishes an alibi for Oswald. 

•  Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke?
  

If Oswald had a coke at all, it was purchased before going outside. You must surely be aware that not even Baker could keep the story straight about whether there was a coke or not. But while you're asking your very special "truthseeker" style questions about why someone would so something that's based on hearsay, how about you ask a living person why they did something equally as bizarre... the difference being, with Oswald, it's a myth -- with your man it's a fact by his own account. Ask Frazier why he suddenly got hungry after the shots rang out and scurried off to the basement to eat all on his lonesome.

You will get no argument from me that Baker was a poor witness. But in light of what he was dealing with we must all give him a lot of slack. You are talking about an encounter that took less than 30 seconds. Baker did note with some detail the calmness of Oswald's face. He noted his expression never changed the whole time. Why does Baker remember this detail but forgets many others? The simple explanation is that Baker was studying Oswald's face to see if he detected nervousness, sweating, a person out of breath like he just had run down a few flights of stairs. The fact that he could say that Oswald's facial expression never changed tells me he had his eyes on Oswald's face. He was not looking at how Oswald was dressed or whether he had a coke or not in his hands. Later in the day when he wrote his affidavit he doesn't even remember the lunch room or what stairs he was on. But Roy Truly who was with him and knew the building like the back of his hand knew exactly where they were and who they had encountered. Later when the FBI conducted timing tests to see exactly how long it took for Baker to get to the exact spot where he spotted a figure go by a window in the 2nd floor door he had to agree exactly with the way Truly had explain where they were. 

I have to go now, so I am going to send what I have written so far so I don't risk losing it. I will finish my reply later.
  

• He [Baker] and Truly were seen by other witnesses.
  

Really? I assume you mean they were seen together? If so, be my guest and name all those witnesses. Eddie Piper is your first strike.

•  Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs.
  

Piper is notably absent from Truly's WC testimony concerning what happened at the elevators. 

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs? 
Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.


Are you trying to suggest that Baker questioned Piper with Truly standing right there and Truly didn't notice?

Does Baker perhaps corroborate Piper? Nope. Truly saw no one. But Truly was kinda like Sergeant Schultz... he made the superfluous point in his early statement that he saw no one when he went inside... which he repeats when given a specific question on it in the hearings.

Here is Baker


SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


So you have Piper helping out the Truly-Baker fantasy...cos I guess that's what elderly retarded African-Americans do... you know... try and help those good ol' white folk (though a site on him him being retarded would be a first if you can manage it)

Just a pity this class vaudeville duo, Baker & Truly couldn't reciprocate and back up Piper. 

You did claim that they were seen by "witnessES"... so who else you sending into bat for strike two?

• Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom.
  

There was testimony that it was his usual practice (as it was with others) to buy a soda to have with lunch. If he bought a drink that day, he did so before the assassination. The tee-shirt doesn't lie. How did Oswald manage to be wearing a tee-shirt for the Reid encounter and then had on work-shirt or jacket for the alleged Baker encounter? How come Geneva Hine, who stayed at her desk to answer the phone so others could go watch the parade, did not notice either Reid or Oswald despite this encounter happening right in front of her desk? There is also photographic and other testimony showing some delay before Reid went back in. Reid was a loyal employee helping out her lying in-this-up-to-his-chin boss.

• If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.
  

The real problem is that you have belief in evidence that has been long debunked as lacking truth.  I like the irony in that. Your entire argument in the above quote btw, is a logical fallacy called an appeal to incredulity. Take it to a forum that wallows in such fallacies. They're not hard to find. Take your pick of any of the others. It doesn't wash here.

Truthseeker wrote:

greg parker wrote:

Truthseeker wrote:I cannot speak for Duncan's motives. I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken. I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 

Why is the PM not Oswald? 

There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. I asked him specifically if LHO was near him on the steps of TBD at anytime. He was emphatic that he was not. Frasier spent some time on the steps before going back inside. It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him. All TBD employees were directly asked in a questionnaire if anyone had seen Oswald during the time of the shots. Not one person that we know of replied in the affirmative.

If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker? Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke? Did Baker and Roy Truly conspire to lie about their encounter with Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom? We know that Baker ran into the TBD by film footage? He and Truly were seen by other witnesses. Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs. So far their testimony as to their actions are verified. But now they are going to lie about their encounter with Oswald? 

Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom. Later FBI retimed Mrs. Reid time from when she left the steps and returned to her 2nd floor office where she spots Oswald. It was 2 minutes. This coincides with the officer Baker encounter. Either the FBI was able to get all these people to conspire to lie or these are the true facts. It is highly unlikely Oswald could have been outside on the steps and have made his rendezvous with officer Baker who was trotting and Oswald who would have no need to hurry upstairs to meet at the same time. If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.

Anyone seeking the truth of any matter must first have an open mind. This post shows a decidedly closed mind. Your username is therefore a misnomer, so I'll just call you Lee for now until we find something more apropos, okay?

Let's take your arguments one by one, Lee.

• I personally reject the PM being Oswald for the fact that it would mean everyone else was either lying or mistaken.
  

Lying or mistaken about what exactly?

Truly, Baker and Reid placing Oswald on the 2nd floor for starters. 

• I believe Oswald is innocent in the shooting of JFK but based on much better evidence than an ambiguous photo. 
  

Firstly, there is much more evidence Oswald was outside than just a couple of still frames. You need to actually read the threads on the subject, or buy the book to understand that. Those who just bitch about the photo being blurry are usually agenda-driven and refuse point blank to discuss all the other evidence. Secondly, the photo is not as ambiguous as you would like it to be. There is enough detail to unambiguously show that it is a young white male with a slight receding hairline wearing workman's clothes. That rules a lot of others out. It doesn't rule Oswald out.

I agree the picture doesn't rule out Oswald (although the body shape certainly doesn't look like Oswald) but the eyewitness testimony placing Oswald somewhere else does. I used this same argument when people were saying Lovelady was Oswald. 

• There is no eyewitness that places Oswald on the steps outside of the door. 
  

Correct! There is also no eyewitness to ANYONE standing in the PM position. By your reasoning, it must be an apparition. I think I'll pass on that possibility and go with a saner, terrestrial explanation. Oswald arrived late and stood behind everyone in the shadows. No one was checking behind. They were all looking at what was unfolding down on the street.

"There is also no eyewitness to ANYONE standing in the PM position."

So was everyone on the steps questioned as to who might be the PM in the picture or is this your assumption or the book's? Aren't you speculating that PM came out late and stayed in the shadows behind everyone? It certainly appears to me that he is in front of Buell Frasier not behind. In fact if he came out late it seems he would have had to excuse himself to get by Frasier leaning against the door.  Where is Lovelady and Shelley in this picture? I thought according to their testimony they did not leave the steps until they heard a female employee named Gloria, I believe, walk up and say that the President had been shot. She had been down further closer to the limo when the shooting began. 

"No one was checking behind. They were all looking at what was unfolding down on the street."

I guess I can't use this excuse to explain why so few people including Buell Frasier notice a police officer race up the steps. 

•  I have personally conducted a telephone interview with Buell Frasier. 
  

Good for you! We'll see how he goes with under oath with a clear print of PM to look at.

The picture is ambiguous. You said so yourself. Frasier has already swore under oath he did not see LHO at the time of the shooting. I've heard someone post on this forum that Frasier was coerced into lying about seeing Oswald. Lt. Fritz tried to make Frasier sign a confession form and threatened to hit him and Buell told him if you hit me I will get in a few good licks on you before those police officers outside can come to your rescue. This is also the same guy who would not buckle to FBI coercion to changes his story about the length of the package Oswald put in his back seat.  I refuse to believe that this guy would knowingly deny seeing Oswald at the time of the shooting. He was too much of a stand up guy. When I spoke with him by phone I told him I admired the fact that he never threw Oswald under the bus like others such as Ruth Paine for example. So I naturally resent those who would accuse him of willfully denying seeing him at the time of the shooting. 

•  It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him.
  

You're on a roll, Lee! Correct again. You found the exception to the rule that no one saw him and no one lied about not seeing him. But Buell also told the FBI that he saw no strangers that day. If true, then he knew PM, wouldn't you agree?

It depends how the question was phrased to him. If they asked him if he saw anyone within the building that was a stranger might be interpreted by Frasier to mean anyone inside the building but not outside on the steps. We need to investigate that further.

• If LHO had been PM how would he have had time to to go back inside and walk up to the 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen by officer Baker?
  

It was the demolition of the 2nd floor lunchroom story which started the search for placing Oswald elsewhere. The 2nd floor lunchroom encounter never happened no matter how cool Gary Oldman looked enacting it in JFK. It is a myth created to deny Oswald his alibi.

I have not heard anything yet close to demolishing the 2nd floor lunchroom story. I've a heard a lot of innuendo and half truths. Any credible assassination researcher I've come across accept this story wholeheartedly. Just the notion that 3 people unrelated in the case of Officer Baker to Truly and Reid would make up a story of seeing Oswald on the second floor and then lying about it under oath in arguably the biggest crime in US history strains the incredulity. This begs the question why in God's name would 3 ordinary people lie about what they saw? If you suggest they were coerced into it by the conspirators, again the same question why? This scenario was extremely problematic for the WC. The first time I heard of this encounter a mere 90 seconds after the last shot sent up red flags as far as I was personally concern. Then you add Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles to the mix and the WC staff must have been pulling the hair out of their head trying to figure how to take Oswald's alibi away. And they tried to using deceptive practices. But in recent years these practices were exposed and the truth establishes an alibi for Oswald. 

•  Did witnessing the shooting suddenly give Lee a thirst for a coke?
  

If Oswald had a coke at all, it was purchased before going outside. You must surely be aware that not even Baker could keep the story straight about whether there was a coke or not. But while you're asking your very special "truthseeker" style questions about why someone would so something that's based on hearsay, how about you ask a living person why they did something equally as bizarre... the difference being, with Oswald, it's a myth -- with your man it's a fact by his own account. Ask Frazier why he suddenly got hungry after the shots rang out and scurried off to the basement to eat all on his lonesome.

You will get no argument from me that Baker was a poor witness. But in light of what he was dealing with we must all give him a lot of slack. You are talking about an encounter that took less than 30 seconds. Baker did note with some detail the calmness of Oswald's face. He noted his expression never changed the whole time. Why does Baker remember this detail but forgets many others? The simple explanation is that Baker was studying Oswald's face to see if he detected nervousness, sweating, a person out of breath like he just had run down a few flights of stairs. The fact that he could say that Oswald's facial expression never changed tells me he had his eyes on Oswald's face. He was not looking at how Oswald was dressed or whether he had a coke or not in his hands. Later in the day when he wrote his affidavit he doesn't even remember the lunch room or what stairs he was on. But Roy Truly who was with him and knew the building like the back of his hand knew exactly where they were and who they had encountered. Later when the FBI conducted timing tests to see exactly how long it took for Baker to get to the exact spot where he spotted a figure go by a window in the 2nd floor door he had to agree exactly with the way Truly had explain where they were. 

I have to go now, so I am going to send what I have written so far so I don't risk losing it. I will finish my reply later.
  

• He [Baker] and Truly were seen by other witnesses.
  

Really? I assume you mean they were seen together? If so, be my guest and name all those witnesses. Eddie Piper is your first strike.

No Eddie Piper is not a strike out. He says he saw Roy Truly and a policeman and backs up their testimony of events. He would have had to conspire with Truly, Baker and Mrs. Reid. So now we have 4 ordinary people unrelated willing to risk prosecution for perjury in the murder of our President in order to support a story that is injurious to the lone nut scenario that the WC was desperately trying to establish. Really?

•  Officer Baker stopped to question Eddie Piper, a mildly retarded black man standing by the elevator. He heard them yell up for the doors to be closed. He saw them run up the stairs.
  

Piper is notably absent from Truly's WC testimony concerning what happened at the elevators. 

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs? 
Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.

He obviously either missed or forgot that Eddie Piper was there. So what? You guys try to make every mistake someone says fit your pet theory. We are speaking of the aftermath of shots fired at the President and the scenario a few seconds longs. You are going to miss details. 


Are you trying to suggest that Baker questioned Piper with Truly standing right there and Truly didn't notice?



Does Baker perhaps corroborate Piper? Nope. Truly saw no one. But Truly was kinda like Sergeant Schultz... he made the superfluous point in his early statement that he saw no one when he went inside... which he repeats when given a specific question on it in the hearings.

Here is Baker


SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.


So you have Piper helping out the Truly-Baker fantasy...cos I guess that's what elderly retarded African-Americans do... you know... try and help those good ol' white folk (though a site on him him being retarded would be a first if you can manage it)

Just a pity this class vaudeville duo, Baker & Truly couldn't reciprocate and back up Piper. 

You did claim that they were seen by "witnessES"... so who else you sending into bat for strike two?

I have corresponded with Barry Ernest, the author of "The Girl on the Stairs". I asked him how he thought it was possible that Vicky and Sandra could have missed seeing Truly and Baker. I will copy and paste his reply to me.

"Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles both told me they did not see a policeman (Baker) or Roy Truly (who they would have recognized) on the first floor when they arrived there. What IS interesting is that in separate interviews with Adams and Styles, each told me the same thing, that a "black man" who they knew as an employee was standing there. This is corroborated by Officer Baker and Roy Truly, who I also interviewed. Each of them said the same thing, Baker saying that he saw a "rather large black man" there, and Truly saying that the man "was an employee" who was "slightly retarded." This seems to fit the description of Eddie Piper, who said in his testimony he was in that general area after the shooting and saw a policeman and Truly. Adams, Styles, Baker and Truly all saw the same man in about the same spot, but Adams and Styles did not see Baker and Truly, and vice versa. The first floor of the Depository was a cluttered mess and each could have missed the other because of that, how quickly they were moving, or the confusion of the moment"

• Oswald was asked his movements inside the TBD. He stated that he went upstairs to purchase a coke. Oswald was seen by Mrs. Robert Reid coming in from the door in the hallway just down from the lunchroom.
  

There was testimony that it was his usual practice (as it was with others) to buy a soda to have with lunch. If he bought a drink that day, he did so before the assassination. The tee-shirt doesn't lie. How did Oswald manage to be wearing a tee-shirt for the Reid encounter and then had on work-shirt or jacket for the alleged Baker encounter? How come Geneva Hine, who stayed at her desk to answer the phone so others could go watch the parade, did not notice either Reid or Oswald despite this encounter happening right in front of her desk? There is also photographic and other testimony showing some delay before Reid went back in. Reid was a loyal employee helping out her lying in-this-up-to-his-chin boss.

If you carefully read Geneva Hine's testimony she seems to state she left the office after the shots and it sounds like a few minutes. Mrs Robert Reid was timed by a WC lawyer as to how long it would take her to get from in front of the steps to her office on the 2nd floor. It was 2 minutes. This is the time she saw Oswald entering the office from the hallway and the 2nd floor lunchroom. If you have photographic evidence that suggests she stayed outside later I would be interested in seeing that. It would be important to me. As far as Oswald wearing only a T shirt. I would believe Mrs. Reid who was a very good witness over officer Baker who is a bad witness. Yet because of Baker's quick actions that day ultimately proved that LHO had an alibi and could not have been on the 6th floor when the motorcade drove by. 

The notion that Mrs. Reid helped out her lying boss by perjuring herself under oath is preposterous. Besides was Mr. Truly, Mrs. Reid's boss or was it Mr. Campbell? The fact that Oswald as usual purchased a coke to drink with his lunch is only part of the truth. LNer's have used this fact against Oswald going to the 2nd floor. As far as I understand there was a Dr. Pepper soda machine on the first floor and Oswald seemed to prefer Dr. Pepper to coke. Oswald must have decided to drink a coke that day and so went up to the 2nd floor where there was a coke machine. He was seen leaving by Mrs Reid with a full coke. Proving that he had just purchased a coke. He did not have a coke in his hands when Baker encountered him because Oswald did not have time to purchase it as he had just enter the lunchroom from down the hallway. Baker stated in his WC testimony that Oswald had nothing in his hand. He signed an affidavit with the words coke in his hands and 3rd floor crossed off. This affidavit was obvious written by someone else and Baker looked it over and crossed off coke in his hands and 3rd floor then signed it. 

• If someone can show me evidence that everyone conspired to lie and not mere speculation to support your pet theory that Oswald is the PM.
  

The real problem is that you have belief in evidence that has been long debunked as lacking truth.  I like the irony in that. Your entire argument in the above quote btw, is a logical fallacy called an appeal to incredulity. Take it to a forum that wallows in such fallacies. They're not hard to find. Take your pick of any of the others. It doesn't wash here.

The real problem here is that to support a pet theory you have disregarded other obvious evidence that place Oswald on the 2nd floor. This forum is dedicated to reopening the case but do you really believe you would convince the proper authorities to reopen a case based on a photograph that lacks enough detail to positively say it is Oswald. Howard Rottman in his excellent book "Presumed Guilty" proves by the Baker encounter with Oswald that Oswald has an alibi beyond a reasonable doubt. If you include "The Girl on the Stairs" revelations that Dorothy Gardiner was near the 4th floor landing when Vicky and Sandra descended the stairs and Mrs. Gardiner stated in an affidavit sent to the WC by Martha Stroud that the next persons she saw were Roy Truly and a policeman. She heard or saw no one come down from the upper floors before she saw Mr Truly and Baker. This proves again beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald has an alibi. If Oswald didn't shoot JFK, then he would not have killed officer Tippit or try to shoot officer MacDonald in the theater. His only crime was hitting officer MacDonald, which according to interrogation notes he said he did it to protect himself. Whatever that meant? This is the type of evidence that might get a new investigation, not an ambiguous photograph.

Terry W. Martin wrote:Greg, it's just another case of a "seeker" with an agenda. If the Second Floor encounter had exonerated Oswald the Warren Commission would have said so. It does no such thing and attempting to claim it should be enough to get the case re-opened is about fifty-years lame.

PrayerMan is more than the fuzzy pixels. If you cannot delve a little deeper, simply ignore it.

No, really.

Please.

Truthseeker wrote:It would have been impossible for Frasier to have missed Lee on the steps so close to him.