Prayer Man Poll

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Where do you stand?

Harkness told Larry Sneed for No More Silence that he personally took part in the arrest of "six to eight" tramps but these weren't the three "famous ones".

My information is that two long freights got shook down; one was on a straight shunt just west of Bowers' tower, and the other on a circular spur that arched along the far edge of the parking lot. It's this latter one that appears in the Hughes film and a Jim Murray photograph.

A grassy knoll shooter from the midpoint of the stockade fence only had 100-150 feet to saunter to reach the latter train. I still think this is how the Frenchman referred to by Dallas INS actually escaped.

Thanks Colin. An amazing job. There looks to be some sort of hand movements with PM, or is that just a product of the process of stabilizing?

Just to clarify, this was not my video. I stumbled across it today by accident.  Think it might be the stabilisation that produces the PM movement. 

Some interesting stuff there. Lovelady and Shelley are almost at the end of the facade at the end of the building. The west annex starts with the five diamonds black part of the wall. Lovelady appears to be running ahead of Shelley at the end of the clip. This means they likely moved from the steps shortly after the shots as Baker is just running for the TSBD.

Also note the lady in the white coat moving up the steps from the street towards PM. The question is, did PM move inside before Baker got to the top of the steps?

There looks to be some sort of hand movements with PM, or is that just a product of the process of stabilizing?

I've always thought PM had his sleeves rolled up so perhaps his right hand is adjusting his left sleeve.
Of course, I only know of one group of men who roll sleeves that high, PM looks like a Marine.
http://taskandpurpose.com/rolled-sleeves-back-marines/

It was my understanding that the stabilization was done by Robin Unger, but I may be confusing this with something else.

Albert Rossi wrote:It was my understanding that the stabilization was done by Robin Unger, but I may be confusing this with something else.

I'd say either Robin or Gerda Dunkel. And now that I think of it, it may have been posted in the Ed Forum thread.

Yes, I think it was, and there was some notable enhancement from the first set of images.


Gerda is credited here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=3

I'm sure Robin was mentioned for something later on, though.  Looking ...


Don't have time to finish going through the thread, but Robin chimes in here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=16

The combined/stabilized gif is definitely Gerda's.

Guest wrote:I see someone voted for "A Stranger from the crowd."

Hmmm.  I wonder who cast that vote?

Anyone but Oswald, eh?  Give me strength.

I confess. I chose 'anyone but Oswald'.
If there had been another choice such as, "I don't know" or "unknown man",
I would have chosen one of those.

I'm persuaded LHO was not on the 6th floor and was not a shooter.
I don't know where he was. I know where he was not.

But Prayer Man does not look like Oswald to me except for his head shape and hair-line.
LHO was a skinny guy. The man in the photo seems stocky. His forearms are really big.
They resemble 'Popeye the Sailor's' forearms.

Anyway, I had no malicious or LN'er intent making that choice.
It might be LHO. Maybe the stockiness comes from photo distortion.

Given the choice - I would have chosen "unknown male" or "I don't know".  
I don't know if he was a stranger. I don't know if he came from the crowd or not.

I've read the thread at EF. Maybe my eyesight is getting bad.
But right now, I don't think it was Oswald - because of Prayer Man's
apparent body-type. But honestly - Right now, I can't conclude anything from
that photo.

M.Ellis wrote:

Guest wrote:I see someone voted for "A Stranger from the crowd."

Hmmm.  I wonder who cast that vote?

Anyone but Oswald, eh?  Give me strength.

I confess. I chose 'anyone but Oswald'.
If there had been another choice such as, "I don't know" or "unknown man",
I would have chosen one of those.

I'm persuaded LHO was not on the 6th floor and was not a shooter.
I don't know where he was. I know where he was not.

But Prayer Man does not look like Oswald to me except for his head shape and hair-line.
LHO was a skinny guy. The man in the photo seems stocky. His forearms are really big.
They resemble 'Popeye the Sailor's' forearms.

Anyway, I had no malicious or LN'er intent making that choice.
It might be LHO. Maybe the stockiness comes from photo distortion.

Given the choice - I would have chosen "unknown male" or "I don't know".  
I don't know if he was a stranger. I don't know if he came from the crowd or not.

I've read the thread at EF. Maybe my eyesight is getting bad.
But right now, I don't think it was Oswald - because of Prayer Man's
apparent body-type. But honestly - Right now, I can't conclude anything from
that photo.

I must admit that Sean got in touch with me about PM (as I remember it) before he ever made it public. I was dismissive of it then for similar reasons - he looks too solidly built. But the case that it was Oswald as it played out on that epic thread, persuaded me my original dismissal was wrong. I now think it's just just a combination of normal distortion within the photo and the shirt hanging out with PM standing in a manner that further accentuates that slight billowing.

If PM had to stand on the photo only, then its H&L territory. Sean, with great skill, eliminated all possible candidates other than LHO or a random stranger.

In post 630 of the EF thread < http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=42 > Sean Murphy says:

Sean Murphy wrote:I certainly will not be renaming Prayer Man 'Prayer Woman', because the frame above puts the matter pretty much beyond doubt:
 
This is Lee Oswald.
 
[DARNELL PRAYER MAN FRAME]
 
The womanly appearance is due to the fact that
a ) his sleeves are rolled up;
b ) the eye is confusing the back of a woman's head with part of Lee's torso.
 
Here's the woman in question's lower leg and foot:
 

 
If you place your finger to the screen to cover where her head should be, the chief source of the 'Prayer Woman' illusion becomes apparent.
 
This is Lee Oswald.
Just look at the hairline.

This was the final piece that sold me.

greg parker wrote:
I must admit that Sean got in touch with me about PM (as I remember it) before he ever made it public. I was dismissive of it then for similar reasons - he looks too solidly built. But the case that it was Oswald as it played out on that epic thread, persuaded me my original dismissal was wrong. I now think it's just just a combination of normal distortion within the photo and the shirt hanging out with PM standing in a manner that further accentuates that slight billowing.

Stan Dane wrote:In post 630 of the EF thread < http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=42 > Sean Murphy says:

Sean Murphy wrote:I certainly will not be renaming Prayer Man 'Prayer Woman', because the frame above puts the matter pretty much beyond doubt:
 
This is Lee Oswald.
 
[DARNELL PRAYER MAN FRAME]
 
The womanly appearance is due to the fact that
a ) his sleeves are rolled up;
b ) the eye is confusing the back of a woman's head with part of Lee's torso.
 
Here's the woman in question's lower leg and foot:
 

 
If you place your finger to the screen to cover where her head should be, the chief source of the 'Prayer Woman' illusion becomes apparent.
 
This is Lee Oswald.
Just look at the hairline.

This was the final piece that sold me.

I don't know. Maybe my eyes are going. I'm getting older.
I can glean nothing from that photo.

But PM is not necessary to prove to me LHO was not the shooter and was not
on the sixth floor. But I understand--if Sean Murphy's right--it's revolutionary.

It's doubtful a stranger from the crowd would occupy that spot. It's more likely an
employee is standing there. And Sean Murphy used the process of elimination to
eliminate every other employee possibility I guess.  

But I cannot glean anything from that photo.

steely dan wrote:If PM had to stand on the photo only, then its H&L territory. Sean, with great skill, eliminated all possible candidates other than LHO or a random stranger.

Yes, but there was no tip of the hat to H&L.

As you see on the list "Harvey Oswald" was not one of the choices.

When I first saw the photo, I thought it was Lee - right where he claimed to be at the time - but my eyes ain't what they used to be. It was Sean's dismantling of every other option that convinced me more than my eyes.

Guest wrote:I see someone voted for "A Stranger from the crowd."

Hmmm.  I wonder who cast that vote?

Anyone but Oswald, eh?  Give me strength.

Guest,
              Actually, I am one of the four people who voted for stranger in the crowd. I have based this contention on the following supporting ideas. No one has produced a verifiable photographic volume that conclusively identifies everyone in the crowd, including the Commission. Thus, to claim anyone has conclusive or even probable evidence that this person is or is not Oswald cannot in my view be accurate without repeated expert verification using enlarged photographs. I would also contend significant testimony and corroboration would be required.

I am more than willing to review any verified evidence that exists to support this idea. I support that a feasible conspiracy occurred, but that conspiracy does not require Oswald to be innocent. In my view his even an admitted patsy is still part of the plot. Oswald was not just a stranger off the street who wandered into these circumstances. He participated in deceptive operations and political practices that possibly delivered him into the hands of the Conspirators in my view.

Since the case is unsolved to claim that Oswald is innocent or guilty without substantial verifiable evidence in my view is premature.

Carmine Savastano wrote:

Guest wrote:I see someone voted for "A Stranger from the crowd."

Hmmm.  I wonder who cast that vote?

Anyone but Oswald, eh?  Give me strength.

Guest,
              Actually, I am one of the four people who voted for stranger in the crowd. I have based this contention on the following supporting ideas. No one has produced a verifiable photographic volume that conclusively identifies everyone in the crowd, including the Commission. Thus, to claim anyone has conclusive or even probable evidence that this person is or is not Oswald cannot in my view be accurate without repeated expert verification using enlarged photographs. I would also contend significant testimony and corroboration would be required.

I am more than willing to review any verified evidence that exists to support this idea. I support that a feasible conspiracy occurred, but that conspiracy does not require Oswald to be innocent. In my view his even an admitted patsy is still part of the plot. Oswald was not just a stranger off the street who wandered into these circumstances. He participated in deceptive operations and political practices that possibly delivered him into the hands of the Conspirators in my view.

Since the case is unsolved to claim that Oswald is innocent or guilty without substantial verifiable evidence in my view is premature.

Carmine, in the spirit of the upcoming Melbourne Cup Carnival (first Tuesday of November), let me offer you $10AUD so you can have a flutter. You can spend it on one race only. The PM Stakes. I've just been notified that Stranger In The Crowd has been scratched from that race but the other runners will be fit to start. Who would you put my money on?

Buell Frazier, Lee Oswald, An unknown female, An unknown female impersonator,An unknown Oswald impersonator, Larry Crafard, Roy Edward Lewis, Houston St Employe, Anyone but Oswald.

Paul McGurkenfarklein wrote:

Carmine Savastano wrote:

Guest wrote:I see someone voted for "A Stranger from the crowd."

Hmmm.  I wonder who cast that vote?

Anyone but Oswald, eh?  Give me strength.

Guest,
              Actually, I am one of the four people who voted for stranger in the crowd. I have based this contention on the following supporting ideas. No one has produced a verifiable photographic volume that conclusively identifies everyone in the crowd, including the Commission. Thus, to claim anyone has conclusive or even probable evidence that this person is or is not Oswald cannot in my view be accurate without repeated expert verification using enlarged photographs. I would also contend significant testimony and corroboration would be required.

I am more than willing to review any verified evidence that exists to support this idea. I support that a feasible conspiracy occurred, but that conspiracy does not require Oswald to be innocent. In my view his even an admitted patsy is still part of the plot. Oswald was not just a stranger off the street who wandered into these circumstances. He participated in deceptive operations and political practices that possibly delivered him into the hands of the Conspirators in my view.

Since the case is unsolved to claim that Oswald is innocent or guilty without substantial verifiable evidence in my view is premature.

Carmine, in the spirit of the upcoming Melbourne Cup Carnival (first Tuesday of November), let me offer you $10AUD so you can have a flutter. You can spend it on one race only. The PM Stakes. I've just been notified that Stranger In The Crowd has been scratched from that race but the other runners will be fit to start. Who would you put my money on?

Buell Frazier, Lee Oswald, An unknown female, An unknown female impersonator,An unknown Oswald impersonator, Larry Crafard, Roy Edward Lewis, Houston St Employe, Anyone but Oswald.

Itchy Bum had already been scratched but I've heard a whisper that there may be a late entry fee paid for the German entire, Nosferatu. 


But he's just a shadow of his former self, and without the early favorite Stranger In The Crowd being a starter, it's hard to go past the formline of Lee Oswald. He can be skittish at the barriers, but if he gets a clean start, he'll be in the mix at the winning post. Let's hope his jockey, Rotoscoped Lovelady, keeps his nerve and doesn't need to pull the whip.

Carmine,

I think basically what Paul is asking is, if "stranger in the crowd" is your first choice, who would be your second?

greg parker wrote:Carmine,

I think basically what Paul is asking is, if "stranger in the crowd" is your first choice, who would be your second?

You take all the fun out of it, Greg, when you put it that way. You need a beer before the race starts.

Paul,

It is my job to keep you all focused.

There is no time for what you call "fun". If you cannot focus, how on god's earth do you expect to become a neurotic sycophant? 

Any more of this and the whole thread will be deleted.

You need a beer before the race starts.

Thanks for noticing!

Greg,

I am all for Deleted, but wasn't he scratched as well?

My money's on Neurotic Sycophant. Unless the jockey's from Bumfuck.

Paul McGurkenfarklein wrote:

greg parker wrote:Carmine,

I think basically what Paul is asking is, if "stranger in the crowd" is your first choice, who would be your second?

You take all the fun out of it, Greg, when you put it that way. You need a beer before the race starts.

What in tarnation! I'm a hearin' "beer," an "fun," "stranger in the crowd," and "second choice." Well, ole Stan's got sumpin' ice cold for y'all! "Second Choice Beer" by Strangers in the Crowd! 
 

Terry W. Martin wrote:My money's on Neurotic Sycophant. Unless the jockey's from Bumfuck.

From what I hear, all the jockeys from Bumfuck ride knobs.

Okay. I think we've got the Cup sorted out. You guys in the US don't know how to live. Victorians get a freakin' public holiday for this race.