Dallas Transit Transfer

Sun 14 Aug 2016, 6:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Anyone having trouble going through this thread can watch the old original one here at Bart's site:
http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc%20forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13122617-dallas-transit-transfers-.html

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Greg, Lee, All, good news.

I submit to you one complete book of Dallas Transit Company Shoppers Transfers!

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Img03410

As Lee Farley said "The bus transfer is the most curious item involved in this whole affair.
If he wasn’t on the bus then how did he get it? Why did it take the DPD two hours to find it?
How did they find out it was McWatters who punched it?"

First the transfers I have are issued for Sunday June 1959

Manufactured by the Southwest Globe Ticket Co. Dallas - Would become Globe

They are for the same route, Marsalis Bus 1213 would use these.

The book starts with transfer 019651 on top and run down to 019700.

Fifty tickets in a booklet.

Signature is of Vice Pres. would switch to Pres. in '63

I can do some tests with the transfers but they are cheap thin paper and would fold
and wrinkle instantly in a pocket and would just end up looking like this:

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Wrinkl11

Size of these transfers are rather small flimsy thin paper, I had expected a ticket like
an airline ticket.

The size is 7 1/2" x 2" for the booklet.

A ticket torn like 004459 is 4 1/2" long slightly shorter than the average shirt pocket of
4 3/4 - 5".

Ink pen for size comparison:

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Img03511

Note size of original 004459 next to a PO box key.

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Bustra12

Every Transfer has instructions printed on the back.

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Img03711

Which state "How to get shoppers free return trip ticket, upon boarding any inbound
transit vehicle between 10:00am and 2:00pm ask the operator for a shoppers transfer;
purchase $1 or more of merchandise in any one of the participating stores below;
pesent your salesslip and this transfer to the transfer desk in THAT STORE,
and receive your FREE RETUR RIDE TRANSIT TICKET, which must be used
before 4:01 or after 7:00pm

(see list of stores on picture) Watch your daily newspaper ads for names of
participating stores.

The back of the book of transfers, note booklets are numbered.

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Img03611

(Note:inside rear cover is blank) Question is what booklet number was LHO's
transfer from?

Was the receipt from the inside back cover of the booklet?

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Receip11

Here is the real question: Who wants to contact the archives and see if they
have transfer 004451 and the receipt. IF THEY DO then we must get a copy
of both sides of each item. If my theory is correct the receipt was written on
the blank back cover and the back of 004451 has instructions on it. I know
the archives has 004459, I called and had them check, but I did not ask for
a copy of the back! [ Rolling Eyes

] drats!

Usually with documents and evidence they photograph and copy each side,
just look at other evidence. WHAT is on the back/reverse of 004459?

Upon trying to see if its doable to tear transfers from the bottom of a book....
You would need to flip the book upside down to be able to tear from the bottom
of the book. Then you can not see where you are tearing. I know your saying well
you just peel back the transfer till what you want is showing, ie the 1 and 0,
then you fold and tear it. It just doesn't work, takes both hands, is inconvient
and pointless. You would open the booklet, place a guide(straight edge, finger,
what have you) across the 1 and 0 and tear. Simple and easy. Doing it backwards
is not. Only a small staple holds the booklet together, and each transfer is perforated.

What did the front office think about the backwards method? I guess it really doesn't
matter as to which exact transfer was given when but sure seems easier business
wise if its done in numerical sequence....but I digress.

"Concerning the transfer, I will leave you with this. We do know that the DPD
confiscated the book of transfers from Cecil McWatters. Whether it was definitely
the same book that Oswald's transfer was allegedly issued from is anyone’s guess
because the actual book was never photographed. We do know "a" book was taken
because a receipt was given for it. The receipt has the following written on the back
“Receipt for the book of transfers from which transfer was issued to Oswald the
accused assin of Pres, John F. Kennedy.” What is tantalising about this receipt is
what it was written on. What is even more tantalising is the number of the thing
it was written on. Receipt 004451. I’ll leave it up to everyone’s imagination to make
their own sense out of what this could potentially mean" ~Lee Farley
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17269

January 30, 2015 at 4:23 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

The photo copy of 004451 and the receipt, aka Exhibit No 9, look like they were
laid side by side and photocopied at the same time!
If this is the case, and I suspect I am correct, then the receipt is on the rear inside
cover and the reverse would show the booklet number that these transfers came from.
And the reverse of 004451 or 004459 would have the shoppers transfer instructions on
them.

Its a good day tater!

January 30, 2015 at 5:06 PM

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Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048

Ed, you sly dog. Great detective work.

Can we get a volunteer to make the phone call? If this pans out as expected...
it's not just a good day. It's a bloody little ripper.

January 30, 2015 at 6:21 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Thanks Greg,

I've looked at it ten ways to sunday and the receipt and 004451 appear to have
mirrored tear outs.
Or near mirrored tear outs.
Need best copy of No 9 from archives at least to make final that they are same
item or two items side by side.
If they are exactly mirrored tear out around the staple area then 'they'
may be one item.
IOW it could very well be the receipt was written on the back of 004451.
it does look as if they match..
So were they torn out exactly the same? I doubt it. But if 004451 was next to
rear cover (the receipt), or on the bottom and they both were torn out they
would look like what we see in exhibit No 9. see my overlay

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Transf11

Both overlaid to show match for tear out.
Could it still be two items? Anything is possible in this case.
Match also as said before may mean it is Transfer 004451 reverse side and that means
transfers were NOT printed with instructions on the back of the transfers in 1963.
I find
that hard to believe! It would be like a valet ticket without a disclaimer!!
Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Laugh

Looks like two items could not have been torn from a booklet in a similar fashion:
The rear cover and, the top transfer/first transfer (or a simply a transfer sequentially
numbered 8 transfers before 004459) as there would be 9 transfers worth of stub
between the rear cover and 004451 when they were torn this would interfere with
such a similar tear out shape. Of course 004459 would not be the last transfer in
any booklet 004460 could be, unless the booklet was used backwards.
This holds true even should Globe switched to booklets of ten transfers in '63
(not that I think they did)
This would hold true if Mcwatters only took ten transfers with him from a full booklet
(not that I think this happened or is at all likely).
So did Globe stop printing the instructions on the back of transfers?
Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Dry

Exhibit No 9 holds much to see!

Where exactly is the original transfer 004451, at the archives .... ?
Oh so we don't get duped we need archivist to have a mirror held so you can get
image of both front and back at same time. That way nothing can impune that evidence.

--

“Is everything a conspiracy? No. Only the important stuff.” Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition

PM is THE litmus test of intellectual integrity for researching this case.
Those who fall back on the fuxxy picture defense are not of a caliber to understand
the ins-and-outs of this case. ~ Terry Martin

January 30, 2015 at 7:40 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

We need front/rear image of each item, especially of "Oswald's transfer" 004459,
we do need to see the reverse side!!!
Most important as this will show if printed instructions exists on backs of 1963
transfers and answer questions raised.
004451 we need to see both sides in a mirror.
Receipt, same as above.

January 30, 2015 at 7:51 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Although the transfer supposedly found on LHO was small 4 1/2 x 2" of thin paper
it seems unlikely to be missed in a search of the shirt / pocket.
Possible, if the search of the shirt was conducted by Mr Magoo wearing winter mittens...

More likely is LHO was never on a bus, never had a transfer, never needed a transfer,
but one was supplied for him.

January 30, 2015 at 8:09 PM

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Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048

Sitting here nodding all the way through I as I read it.

January 30, 2015 at 8:17 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Thanks Greg!
Interesting we have never seen the back of the 'transfer' 004459.
I'm so damn interested to see what is on the reverse! Does anyone know if its
been seen? EVER? No one ever has asked for the back? It must be in an image
database somewhere
Most all archived documents are copied front and rear, even when there is nothing
on the reverse.
They should have this ready to go for us. Hehehe
Again I want to see it in a mirror, so we don't get fooled again, to quote a
great rock song.

January 30, 2015 at 8:30 PM

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Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048

bump (we need a volunteer to phone the achives)

January 31, 2015 at 8:34 AM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_381.pdf

The Back of 381a or a photocopy of 004459

January 31, 2015 at 5:36 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Bustra13

January 31, 2015 at 6:14 PM

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Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1104

Sans reverse instructions on 004459, one can safely say 004451 is "the receipt"
and Globe did stop printing Shopper Transfers instructions on the reverse side.

Next is testing. I can complete a detailed experiment where I will match LHO's
movements and actions alledged and see how well a shirt pocket protects a
flimsy transfer from crinkles, wrinkles, folds, creases and dog ears.

January 31, 2015 at 6:36 PM

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Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048

Ed Ledoux at January 31, 2015 at 6:36 PM

Sans reverse instructions on 004459, one can safely say 004451 is "the receipt"
and Globe did stop printing Shopper Transfers instructions on the reverse side.

Next is testing. I can complete a detailed experiment where I will match LHO's
movements and actions alledged and see how well a shirt pocket protects
a flimsy transfer from crinkles, wrinkles, folds, creases and dog ears.

Ed,

they may have stopped printing on the back cos most using it would be elderly
and I'd assume an occasional complaint would be made about the print being
too small to read. My guess is that between 1959 and '63 they posted the
instructions inside the bus in largish print.

There are a couple of issues for... first obviously arises if 51 and 59 came
from same book...

The other issue seems to be that all transfer tickers were printed as
"shopper's transfer" but could only be used as a shoppers transfer with
McWatters punch mark. Without the punch-mark, it was just your ordinary
run-of-the-mill transfer - but with it, it is now a SHOPPER'S TRANSFER.

Was going to copy and paste McWatters' testimony on this, but it is truly excruciating.
But the sense I get is that Mcwatters himself all but rules ticket 59 out as being given
to Oswald - because as above - the punch mark transforms it into a shopper's transfer.
McWatters' does say you have to specifically ask for a shoppers transfer
(presumably otherwise you just get it without the punch hole). Once it has that
punch hole, it is useless unless you go spend a buck. Oswald just wanted to get home
- not go shopping. And McWatters actually tells them it is in the majority of cases
only old ladies who ask for them.

McWatters had absolutely no reason to punch that ticket. If Oswald was on that bus,
all he needed was the ticket. With that punch hole - he COULD NOT JUST
GO AND HOP ANOTHER BUS.

At least, that is what I get from it. The punch hole

Screw it.

I'll post the testimony afterall.. see what you guys can make of it... Smile

Mr. McWATTERS - I really don't know because I didn't, see, I didn't know
anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this
time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers,
in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back
to where they came from in other words, and that time of the morning, because
when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going
to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.
-----------------------------------
Mr. BALL - Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer.
Does that have any significance?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if
they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which
they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all
the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's
worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little
white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides
you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in
other words.
When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where
it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer
to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the
store, get it exchanged for their return fare.
Mr. BALL - In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word
"Shopper's Transfer"?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. BALL - And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer
can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your
punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is correct, yes, sir.

If I am right, that punch hole has just proved Oswald was not on the bus.

January 31, 2015 at 7:56 PM

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Terry Martin
Moderator
Posts: 1143

Another marvelous example of using the WC itself to destroy the opinions of the WC.

It always has been its own worst critic.

January 31, 2015 at 9:43 PM

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Greg
Site Owner
Posts: 2048

Terry Martin at January 31, 2015 at 9:43 PM

Another marvelous example of using the WC itself to destroy the opinions
of the WC.

It always has been its own worst critic.

Terry, I can't believe I never saw it before, but sometimes it takes a thread
as excellent as this to make you focus.

Here is the killer blow from McWatters again and given the Fez treatment,
for no other reason than I'm feeling a bit fezzy,
but I'll get over it - if they want a Shoppers;
well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which
they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any
more than other than--all the stores

January 31, 2015 at 11:00 PM

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Wed 30 Jan 2019, 2:52 pm

Transfer woukd be marked AM up to 12:45.
After that PM.
But Cecil is smart and knows he cant possibly give a am transfer for his Marsalis run.
He gets downtown and to transfer areas about 12:38 so whats the sense of individually punching each ticket, when you can punch the whole booklet LAKEWOOD and PM and set them to tear off the cutter at 1.
Easy and efficient, gives transferee a few extra minutes and makes his job a snap.
Cheers, Ed

Wed 30 Jan 2019, 5:17 pm

So if Oswald really did hop on the McWatters Marsalis bus as claimed by the WC then would not his transfer/ticket be puncHed AM?

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 6:42 am

Cecil doesnt waste another booklet and time to prepare it so he can hand out 12:45 am transfers to no one. He does not get asked for them or drop off transferees till nearly 12:45 and as such does the easiest thing, hands out 1pm transfers a little before 12:45.
Win win for all aboard bus 1213

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 10:48 am

Got it Ed, many thanks.

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:41 pm

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:44 pm

Ed wrote:

Cecil McWatters worked that line for 2 years and he always PRE-PUNCHED his two books of tickets when he got them.
He pre-punched one book Marsalis PM and one book Lakewood PM.
He did not Individually punch each transfer.
He did individually tear them at the specified area.
There is no punch on the receipt or 004451 in the PM or LAKEWOOD areas therefore 'it' is not from Cecil Mcwatters bus.

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

Ed wrote:

Representative FORD - The day that you punched this particular transfer. November 22?
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.
Representative FORD - You punched them the same that day as you did every other day?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it.
Representative FORD - Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice?
Mr. McWATTERS - The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one, back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.
Representative FORD - This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately?
Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock.

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:51 pm

Ed wrote:

Okay to sum up, 004451 is an odd duck. It has no marks. Cecil did not punch it PM, which he would have if it came from Cecils bus as Cecil said he "punched it before I left the end of the line" and it should also have been punched Lakewood. Therefore the receipt and transfer 004451 can not be from Cecil McWatters bus and Marsalis run 1213.
This throws 004459 under the bus.

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:53 pm

Ed wrote:

004459 is a fake from a booklet Cecil never had or used.
Cecil would only recognize his mark, and would think it was from him it was issued.
But we see no marks on 004451 and that means it was not from a booklet used by Cecil on Nov 22 1963.
We have been so easily duped into thinking it was a real transfer when Cecil gave us the answer in '64.
It is no mystery who presented 0004451 on us its Elmer L. “Sonny” Boyd, and Richard Milton Sims via Fritz' instructions.
Sims who gave us this:
Mr. Sims. "Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls."
How do you go from wrapper to hulls in the confined space on the SN? Or even on the outside of the SN.
He is speaking of the chicken wrapper left on a box a few windows down. Not a gun case in the corner!

Anyways "Mr. Sims. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently—this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05."

Closer inspection 4:05 does appear to be the time on the envelope in CE 381 for transfer 004459

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 5:13 pm

Ed wrote:

Transfers from such a bus could be torn 12:30 or 12:45.
12:30 AM transfers could be issued from a pre-punched book for this early run.
12:45 PM transfers would not be issued from an AM pre-punched booklet, but could be from drivers PM pre-punched booklet.

If so they would need to use those transfers to board Cecils bus for the Jones Bledsoe Suitcase Lady debacle to happen. Yes?
For suitcase lady, that ride would need to be short and she would exit with a transfer, possibly to another bus, per Bledsoe.

An AM transfer does not match up with 004451 booklet of course because it was issued by the 12:10 Lamar driver not Cecil.
those transfer punches would not match back up.
An PM transfer could match up with 004451 booklet if punches matched with punch on the index list the supervisor had with Cecils punch and badge #, but we are NOT shown this index master list of punch marks and drivers badge numbers... Neutral

The "bus schedule" that Cecil provides is more than a year old and does not have a place on it that identifies Cecil as having made this document, no badge number, nothing on it says that this was from Cecil other than he brought it in and said he had been doing that particular run two years straight.
Could be why CE 378 is not a Mcwatter exhibit.
The 2:35 is supposed to be the number of hours he works. Not a time.... Rolling Eyes

He starts at 12:11 and drives till 2:11.
Boldly it says - Turn Signs Marsalis At 2:11
Then he is at Paulus at 2:20
So I would assume reaching St Paul @ 2:35pm by not killing a minute. Then what? Discharge all pasengers? Swap drivers? Keeps me thinking he did more than 2:35 worth of driving.

FORD Steps In,
Mr. McWATTERS - This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that with an "L"? L = Lady who got off bus

Mr. McWATTERS - Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?M = Man got off & transfer

Representative FORD - And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - Will you mark that "0"? O = Teenager/Jones

Representative FORD - Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr. McWATTERS - Right here.
Representative FORD - On the step?
Mr. McWATTERS - On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
Representative FORD - Mark that "P." P = Pres.ShotMan/Temple

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 5:19 pm

Ed wrote:

I think Oswald was "lured" to the shoestore by Brewer.
I bet he called and said he had a shoe sale going on. I mean Brewer had to pay for that new car somehow, right.
But when Oswald came by and saw the high prices through the window he freaked out running away from Brewer and hiding in the Theater.
Oswald was heard as they dragged him away saying that yes yes I killed whom ever you say just get me away from that shoe salesman, or words to that effect. Witnesses at the scene saw several others hiding in the balcony from Brewer but they were escorted out the back and driven downtown where the real deals on classic footwear are and you can get a shoppers transfer even if you didn't ride a bus!

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 5:21 pm

Ed Ledoux
Moderator
Posts: 1106

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz_5KLrvBLk

Wade is telling about the cab, he says that LHO got off the bus and caught a cab, in Oak Cliff....
Wade says it again....Oak Cliff
I hear Oak Cliff both times clearly.

This is where the Darryll Click story supposedly starts when Wade said Oak Cliff the newspaper transcribed it as Daryll Click.
Or that is the story.

Sinister connotations were evoked by the attribution to the district attorney of the statement that a taxicab driver named Darryl Click drove Oswald from downtown Dallas to the area of his roominghouse in Oak Cliff. It has been correctly ascertained that no such taxicab driver existed in Dallas. On the other hand, the district attorney, who was quoted in a newspaper transcript as making the statement, never made the statement nor did any one else. Audio tapes of the district attorney's press conference make clear that the person who transcribed the conference rendered a reference to the "Oak Cliff" area of Dallas as a person, "Darryl Click". This error in transcription is the sole source for the existence of a "Darryl Click" as a taxicab driver. ~warren Report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59Y_Ok5aH4

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 5:22 pm

Lee Farley reply to Ed:

Ed said:
And this i find MOST curious
Mr. JENNER - Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----
Mrs. PAINE - No, the shoes were for Marina.
Mr. JENNER - Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?
Mrs. PAINE - Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.
Brewer is in it up to his eye balls I tell you!!!

Brewer wasn't the only shoe salesman of interest on Jefferson Boulevard. There was a much more interesting one a couple of blocks west.

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 5:24 pm

Lee Farley:

In the interview by Rose and Kelly, Lowery stated he worked undercover for the FBI for 19 years in the Communist Party in Texas. He joined the Party in San Antonio and rose to the rank of Secretary-Treasurer of the State apparatus. Lowery was also heavily involved with the American GI Forum from it very beginning and stated that although it wasn't a Communist front organisation it was at one time dominated by Communists. He claimed never to have met Lee Oswald but became apprehensive when he learned that Oswald had been apprehended armed with a pistol in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson Boulevard, Oak Cliff, Dallas on 11/22/63. He felt that Oswald was probably on his way to kill him in reprisal for exposing the Party in Texas. Lowery was a shoe salesman who worked at a store called the Shoe Haven at 620 West Jefferson Boulevard which was approximately three blocks west of the Texas Theater and also three blocks away from Hardy's Shoe Store where another shoe salesman called Johnny Brewer worked.

Lowery was such an important informer for the FBI that on September 23, 1963, he testified at an open Justice Department hearing in Washington and "surfaced as an FBI spy" on the front page of newspapers on the 26th of September in Dallas.

It is also of note that during the open Justice Department hearing both Lowery and Rosalie Urquizo of San Antonio testified against John W. Stanford Jr.. Stanford was represented during the hearing by none other than John Abt.

Lowery did say that the only time Oswald could have been in the same room as him was at the YMCA in Oak Cliff because the CP held meetings there occasionaly.

Lowery was paid $2500 a year by the FBI for working undercover and he received increments of about $200 a month in cash from the local Dallas office. We shall recall that this is the same amount that Waggoner Carr claimed that Oswald was getting each month. Lowery recalled that SA James Hosty was his control in Dallas and paid him on street corners or park benches. Special Agents Harlan Brown and Ed Kuykendall were other agents with whom he dealt.

When interviewed in 1978 Lowery was employed as manager of the shoe section of Margo's La Mode, a women's shoe store at 1708 Elm Street, Dallas, just a few blocks north of the TSBD.

Thu 31 Jan 2019, 5:25 pm

Ed wrote:

The timing of 4:05 for the finding of the transfer ticket just doesn't work... I think it was "backdated" and here's why...

The envelope gives the impression it was sealed at 4:05.
Envelope would have to be back dated if Sims and Boyd ran the transfer up to Fritz and then showed Mcwatters at 6:20 for second showup.

No questions were asked about a bus ticket immediately after for the Markham show-up, In fact, in the following interrogation, tey get their first real clue about how he got away... because this is when Roger Craig makes his appearance. We know the cops took this lead seriously because Curry was still under the impression this was the most likely means of transsport when interviewed saturday evening.
Right, by following the news reports and statements of Wade, Curry, et al, we see how and when the story evolved.
He even said they were looking for the driver. Yes, he wanted to talk with a Negro driving a car. Eventually he found one, Whaley.
There is no way they take Craig seriously if they have a bus ticket found on the suspect. 6:30 is the show-up for McWatters. It is not until the interrogation after that in which any questions are allegedly asked about a bus... that interrogation began ast 7:55.
Correct, they then have Whaley enter the story on Saturday.
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184999/

I know there is other evidence suggesting the ticket was found at 4:05,  Please explain what other evidence points to a 4:05 finding of the transfer??? but how solid is that evidence really? If it could have been faked, it was because Craig's appearance and the initial acceptance of the Rambler story plus no bus questions before 7:55 show it was "found" no sooner than the appearance of McWatters.
Here is something else that looks a little odd to me... the bus ticket has been added in under a different hand
Looks like printing is similar, it is all printed as it is all evidentiary, like Ring, etc.

I'll try this - any flaws - point out and shoot 'em down.  Okay lets go!

Oswald tells them (per Kelley report etc) that he left by bus, obtained a ttransfer and hopped another bus to go to the TT. Or maybe he said he just took a bus to the TT.
This is not mentioned to the press and is later covered up due to the fact that it gets him off the hook for Tipit shooting,
Then came Roger Craig's story. This assumes top billing as getaway because, unlike bus -> bus, this can be used against him re Tippit - and conspiracy was still on the table... so one more person (the driver) was not an ussue. Correct, idea is that he is heading to Jefferson and Marsalis to use the transfer is stopped on the way and shoots Tippit. This does not work for a guy riding a bus to the movies. Yes conspiracy was very much in play with BWF, Molina, Givens and various others being accused of just such.

Next came the report of the young man laughing maniacally on McWatters bus. It is assumed this must have been Oswald. They grab Mcwatters Wait they grab McWatters before really talking to Bledsoe? You know how this sounds?and realise from his punch that Oswald was on a different bus. Possible LHO was on a different bus but did not need or get a transferSolution, they take one of Cec's tickets, punch it with Cec's punch Ahhh his transfers would have been punched already, they just needed to tear the transfer were they thought it would have been torn and get him to confirm it is a ticket from his bus and must be one of the two transfers he gave out. , which I would like to agree with the Bus driver of that route, but without the booklet we are left to wonder why an assumption would need to be made by anyone including Cecil. He just needed to check the booklet to know for certain. Did he? Thanks to the Ball and Belin show we may never know what happened to the evidence this whole bus ride is predicated on. If his book had no F'in transfers missing then he sure as hell did not give any out. If the whole book was empty then Cecil is a moron or a lier as he would have been passing out transfers as fast as he was getting passengers.
Assuming he only gave out two we are still stuck with an out of sequence issuance of a transfer.  Then the line-up. Ces is confused. The maniacal laughing man is not there. But wanting to help, he picks Oswald as the closest in looks. Except that is turned into a possitive ID.
This scenario is made possible by what looks like evidence of two tickets in the hands of the DPD.
One ticket is listed on the property receipt of pocket litter taken from Oswald at arrest (it is not otherwise identified by a number, route or anything else)  Yes! Just a Dallas bus transfer for 11/22.

- the other is sealed in an evidence envelop to send to the lab with the time backdated to 4:05 to disguise the fact that it came from McWatters bus. 4:05 is the story and they are sticking to it no matter what else anyone says. Could be anything in an envelope and marked 4:05 at anytime so why mark an envelope that way?

Having now put Oswald on Cec's bus, they must get him off - else there is no hope of getting him to Tippit on time... enter the taxi and Whaley. Or better yet enter the transfer, ans a need to go to the Dallas Transit Company and start fishing.

After all this, they then - in the reports they would later write - have Osawld admittng - against his own interests - that yes he was on that bus and in that cab. That's how desperate they had become. Agreed, pre-counsel statements which LHO would know better than giving any information or even confirming information presented to him by DPD, because cops are allowed to lie to a suspect to get them to confess, or divulge further information. Classic tactic would be putting BWF in a room and LHO in another and going back and forth saying the other has squealed.

There is no way Oswad was going to be allowed to have a trial. Did Ruby live to see trial? Fritz, was indeed, signaling Ruby with his hand to move in and had left plenty of room for him to do it... against the plan he himself had formulated to keep oswald safe during the transfer. Yes you don't need to wave people away whom were not there, unlike the car which should have been parked by the door already. So after all the delays they couldn't even get the car in the right spot . Again the DPD showed lack of care for the President and a subject under their control. They lost both to gunfire in a single weekend. As Mark Lane said the Dallas Police did not distinguish themselves that day, 11/22 or any other day since.

I bet the ticket listed in property was not pristine... If a ticket made it to property it was pristine as it did not come from Oswald,
it came from a booklet Cecil had on the bus.
If LHO took an Oak Cliff bus he did not necessarily need a transfer to get to the TT. And any transfer would be used to accomplish the transfer to another bus, the transfer thus taken by the driver of the bus he boarded.
If a transfer was taken off Oswald by Sims it went into Fritz's desk drawer never to be seen again...and was replaced with one from Cecil's bus.
LHO would of had no use for a transfer though that I can fathom.
Only purpose getting on a bus and asking for a transfer you don't plan using, is to show what time you had been on the bus. An instant alibi.
This would be the crazy Ivan like we see in soviet sub tactics. Walk one way for a while, get the dog to follow, then double back to see who is following, then hop in a cab/bus. This only happens when a tail is in place. To ditch the tail. Wonder how many cabs were hailed by men on Nov 22 with cameras saying "Follow that bus!"?

Only thing the transfer did was transfer LHO out of a car and onto a bus.

Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:11 am

Credit Bart:

Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 High_res

Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:16 am

Ed wrote:

What Do You Need Me To Say Whaley" changed his story more than a cabbie in a conspiracy. Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Biggrin

He flip flopped on where he dropped the rider. At the address he wrote down? {Past it? Before it?}
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340509/m1/1/
vs
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/whaley3.htm
He said he dropped passenger in the 500 block. That is where the fare was written for. That is what he said in his affidavit.
Yet he changed this to droping off his fare in the 700 block.
The mudding of the water with Neely Street being brought up and used as a landmark is subterfuge...and thus suborning perjury was exercised.

Heck Whaley had Oswald wearing two jackets, a striped shirt, and a expanding bracelet with Lee on it...seriously.
Too good to be be true never applies better than here for Whaley's testimony. He lied about this under oath.
I am sure he was pressured to aid the framing of an escaping Oswald and thus the timing of Oswald's supposed murdering of Tippit.
He was no hero. His death a shame, he never had a chance to tell the truth,,,,but his fare was ordinary and not a one Lee Harvey Oswald.
Whaley's fare was over and done by the time Oswald would have left the building.
Whaley was a dupe or worse. I can call Whaley a liar because its been proven that is what he was. Lying for the right reasons doesn't make those lies correct or even allowable in a court of law. Yet suborning perjury is what was allowed from William H Whaley and commission counsel.

It astounds me these lies are still upheld by the Media (Mainstream) and often repeated.

Oswald was never in Whaley's cab.

Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:24 am

Oswaldo Nova
Member
Posts: 5

http://www.c-span.org/video/?321541-1/discussion-kennedy-assassination-records

Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:26 am

Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:27 am

Ed wrote:

Yes very good find.
Notice how delicate the paper is and how she carefully picks it up. This does not support the notion of it surviving in LHO's pocket during the scuffle and arrest and brutal treatment.
The transfer is excuplatory. It proves LHO's innocence in the Tippit murder. All this would have been forthcoming at trial.
LHO would have shown a bright spolight on the corrupt Dallas police and Distric Attorney's office.
If LHO went to trial, the DPD, Will Fritz and Henry Wade would be the ones on trial.
Pity Lee did not survive DPD custody.

Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:29 am

Ed Ledoux at March 16, 2015 at 10:22 AM

[url=http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc forum/www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13122617-dallas-transit-transfers-a7f1.html?page=14]http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13122617-dallas-transit-transfers-?page=14[/url]

When I was looking at it I thought it was a school assignment, write to someone in the newspaper. Good Timmy you picked the Bus Man.
But then I read the article is about who is next to give the WC testimony. Thus Cecil is due up next.
And Cecil McWatters is underlined.

Its a pretty idle threat if there was one, I mean there just happens to be another article on that page about a bus crash.
Seems very literate of the illiterate writer to include that portion if it was a veiled threat. No underlining of the bus crash , etc.
And You Next Maybe seemd like a kid wanting to share the article and ask if he was next.

A threat would be YOU MAYBE NEXT and an arrow to the bus crash...though it does not state if the Bogata death road Bus driver survived.

Although a Markham relative could be reponsible. Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Laugh

But lets not pass up the most important part of the article,

"An FBI agent - whose name was not released - identified a container that was found in the book building - evidently the one that held the rifle..."
"...Mrs. Randle saw them leave since she lives near a house where Oswald was staying...." Dallas Transit Transfer - Page 5 Wink

Makes me think Linnie was saying the opposite of what she told the WC. She told the WC she did not see them leave. The article gives me the impression that Linnie saw Wes pick up Lee at the Paines from a "distant" observation rather than the story she and Wes gave. Poor Essie Mae had to be coached as to what to say and still got the hands empty/carrying a bag part...drats. Well two outa three ain't bad.
Could be nothing, but Linnie swears she never saw Wes and Lee leave.
Yet Linnie gives that curious description of a Package Covered in Brown Paper.
A gun carton is usually how a gun is shipped in the mail or even when purchased new in a store.
Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday---I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.
Mr. BALL. And did they box them up?
Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes.
Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased.
Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?
Mr. CASTER. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there---and Mr. Roy Truly. The only people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository workers there in the shipping department
Mr. BALL. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there?
Mr. CASTER. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter.
Mr. BALL. In the warehouse?
Mr. CASTER. We were there in the hall--just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right.
Mr. BALL. And did you take the guns out of the carton?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle them?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody else handle the guns?
Mr. CASTER. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive.
Mr. BALL. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it.
Mr. CASTER Well, it couldn't have been more than to minutes.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that?
Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that?
Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home.
Here we have Rose telling us what Linnie Mae Randle said to Adamcik about the bag.
[url=http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/rokc forum/jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/14/1462-002.gif]http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/14/1462-002.gif[/url]
"It was Long Wrapped in Paper or a BOX"

What did Adamcik tell the WC about Linnie and the bag/box?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box.
Of course Wes had plenty of time to go home or elsewhere, he had left the TSBD without waiting around for the roll call. A roll call he not only was not listed on he also hung around for "a few minutes after"...yeah sure got a witness Wes?
Then where Wes? He stutters a bit when asked about this. He has to stop a think, then says he did NOT go directly home...What does that mean? Did he go Indirectly home?
He may have gone home, talked to Linnie, made up a story which he told her and she bought it, and then headed to the hospital.
Linnie would throw off the cops with a game of 'Where's Wesley', similar to Where's Waldo minus the stocking cap.
This will slow or stall for enough time till Wes gets to the hospital, by telling the DPD to go to a Dallas hospital rather than stop by the Irving one.
How Linnie would not know which hospital the old man was in is another mystery. Perhaps he was transferred? Of course if your transferred the transferring hospital would know whom you are and where they transferred you to.
Was Linnie never asked about this error?
The cops, Rose Stovall Adamcik, make it sound like they got back to DPD made a call to Parkland.
Parkland says something like they don't have a patient by that name I assume from what the Rose Stovall Adamcik officers claim, so they assume I assume that Wes went to the Irving Medical Center and call it next.
They get lucky, the second try, and find the patient and thus Where is Wes.
Good guess work, or Parkland said they transferred that patient to Irving medical?

It could very well be Wes gave Lee a ride home.
Perhaps to a back alley Beckley safehouse.
Wes does have missing time.
Is also missing from that roll call list.
Lee needed a lift to Oak Cliff or to the Texas Theater.
Enter Wes.
Lee and Wes both "don't think there will be any more work" so they both leave.
Put two and two together...

Was the bus and cab story a cover for Wes the driver?