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Question Concerning Time

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Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Wed 01 Jan 2014, 11:25 pm

What is the general consensus concerning the approximate time that Lee Oswald was put in handcuffs at the Texas Theater?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 12:39 am

I believe at approximately 1:50 pm. According to both WCE705 and WCE1974, Jerry Hill reports at about 1:51 pm that they have apprehended Oswald.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 1:26 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:I believe at approximately 1:50 pm. According to both WCE705 and WCE1974, Jerry Hill reports at about 1:51 pm that they have apprehended Oswald.

1:50pm assumes he was kept in the theater for less than 30 seconds.

What other time stamps do we have?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 6:45 am

Lee Farley wrote:What other time stamps do we have?

Lee,

I'll do some digging later on today and tomorrow and get back to you. In the meantime, hopefully others can jump in.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 7:31 am

The best time stamp we have in relation to the arrest is the clock that appears in the homicide and robbery offices that we see in the footage of Oswald first being taken in.  The time on the clock is 2:00pm



Is it conceivable that Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater at 1:50pm, then within 30 seconds of arrest was bundled into the cop car, taken from West Jefferson Boulevard in Oak Cliff to City Hall in downtown Dallas, removed from the car in the basement, and taken to the Homicide & Robbery Bureau - in 9 minutes?

There is a very specific reason why I'm asking this question about the time of arrest but before I go into that can I ask if people believe from arrest in the theater to arrival in Fritz's office took less than 10 minutes?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Redfern on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 8:17 am

Nelson took 7 minutes to get from Marsalis at R L Thornton to Dealey Plaza.

However, City Hall was at least half a mile further east through the heart of Dallas.

A 1.50 pm arrest time would seem to be the very latest that was possible. The first radio message concerning the Texas Theater was only shortly before 1.46.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 9:08 am

Thanks, Red,

Let me elaborate a bit.  I've gone through the TT events multiple times over the past few years.  Greg will agree that both he and I (with Duke Lane) dragged a nit comb through the theater arrest.

One thing always bothered me.  The timings.  

Working backwards we have an arrival at the H&R office of Fritz at 2:00pm.

We have a call from Gerald Hill at 1:51pm telling dispatch they have a suspect.

We have an official arrest time of 1:50pm.

We have the first TT radio call at 1:46pm.

So working between the radio call at 1:46pm to the official time of arrest at 1:50pm is four minutes enough?

And if 1:50pm was the official time of arrest - why was it written officially as 1:40pm on this document?



And, let's just play around with this for a moment, if the arrest did take place at 1:40pm then what are the implications?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 10:51 am

The odds are overwhelming that this police report is in error as to the 1:40 PM arrest time. You'd have to overhaul an entire causal nexus to agree with it. Beginning with a 1:44 radio call from Hill that he's preparing to shake down & search the Abundant Life Temple. And Ron Reiland's footage of the wallet being examined by Westbrook, Barrett and Owens, which is also time-stamped at 1:44.

It's only approximately 3.8 miles from the Texas Theater to City Hall. The squad car went there via Zangs Boulevard, and it would have been easy to achieve speeds in excess of 60. So if they pulled away from the Theater at 1:53, with sirens blaring, it would have been easy to reach DPD HQ by 1:58.

Postal's 1:45 phone call led to Oswald being escorted into the Homicide Office at 2:00

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 2:38 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:The odds are overwhelming that this police report is in error as to the 1:40 PM arrest time. You'd have to overhaul an entire causal nexus to agree with it. Beginning with a 1:44 radio call from Hill that he's preparing to shake down & search the Abundant Life Temple. And Ron Reiland's footage of the wallet being examined by Westbrook, Barrett and Owens, which is also time-stamped at 1:44.

It's only approximately 3.8 miles from the Texas Theater to City Hall. The squad car went there via Zangs Boulevard, and it would have been easy to achieve speeds in excess of 60. So if they pulled away from the Theater at 1:53, with sirens blaring, it would have been easy to reach DPD HQ by 1:58.

Postal's 1:45 phone call led to Oswald being escorted into the Homicide Office at 2:00

Considering the worst that Oswald had done to bring the authorities down on him, according to the complainant, was to act nervously in the lobby of a shoe store and to enter a theatre without paying, this was quite a high level response. I count in the arresting force a captain, three detectives, a lieutenant and three sergeants out of a force of sixteen. And all of these men responding to a complaint at the Texas Theatre with the POTUS being shot in downtown Dallas just over an hour before this.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 4:37 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:The odds are overwhelming that this police report is in error as to the 1:40 PM arrest time. You'd have to overhaul an entire causal nexus to agree with it. Beginning with a 1:44 radio call from Hill that he's preparing to shake down & search the Abundant Life Temple. And Ron Reiland's footage of the wallet being examined by Westbrook, Barrett and Owens, which is also time-stamped at 1:44.

It's only approximately 3.8 miles from the Texas Theater to City Hall. The squad car went there via Zangs Boulevard, and it would have been easy to achieve speeds in excess of 60. So if they pulled away from the Theater at 1:53, with sirens blaring, it would have been easy to reach DPD HQ by 1:58.

Postal's 1:45 phone call led to Oswald being escorted into the Homicide Office at 2:00

That's cool, Richard.

So what time do we believe Brewer saw Oswald enter his store's lobby?

I'll have a few more questions as we go through especially the 1:44 timestamp of the Reiland footage.  I am slightly confused due to Westbrook being present there with Owens.  This thread is going to delve into the police dispatches and when it does we are all going to be pulling our hair out.


Last edited by Lee Farley on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 8:02 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by dwdunn(akaDan) on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 5:17 pm

Trav makes an important point; we have to assume the alacrity & size of the arresting force was due to the suspect being wanted in the Tippet murder without at that time there being any reason (I say with a straight face) to believe the suspect was involved in Pres. Kennedy's murder.

So we have a firm timestamp of 2 PM for Oswald in custody arriving at Fritz's office. "We have a call from Gerald Hill at 1:51pm telling dispatch they have a suspect." (Under arrest presumably, and wanted in connection to the murder of Ofc. Tippet presumably. And also presumably indicating to dispatch that they are en route with the suspect.) What was the content of the radio message regarding the Texas Theater? If that was the first indication about ANYTHING regarding the TT (in other words, a message about arriving or en route to the theater, or advising officers TO REPORT TO the theater), then it would just be ridiculous to think you could go from radio report to arrival at the theater to talking to Johnny B to checking out the place and the patrons to identifying/locating Oswald to arresting him in under 4 minutes flat. I doubt even the Gestapo was ever that good.

The 1:40 PM time for the arrest would make more sense if it was written as an indication of when arresting officers arrived at the theater, resulting in the subsequent arrest of the suspect, which a reporting officer might do. In other words, the actual arrest being "how it turned out" once the police arrived; about 10 minutes to having the suspect in actual custody sounds about right: 1) arrival at the theater & talk with helpful Johnny; 2) combing the aisles, checking out patrons, etc; 3) approach to Oswald & arrest attempt; 4) getting Oswald in physical custody ( handcuffed) & "cooling off" after a struggle; 5) report to dispatch that suspect is in custody and en route to HQ.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 8:30 pm

I have asked Richard whether he has an approximate time that Oswald appeared in Johnny Brewer's store lobby area and I would ask other member's whether they have any thoughts. Official time-frames put the Brewer sighting between 1:36pm-1:37pm.

To establish this approximate time, given the following statement from Johnny Brewer, we also need to establish when the description of the Tippit suspect was broadcast on public radio:

“He [Brewer] said he also heard a radio broadcast describing the suspect and the man he observed in the store foyer resembled this person.  In other words, he was in his early 20’s, short stature, weighing 145 to 150 pounds, about 5’ 9” or 5’ 10”.”

Bear in mind that the police radio log has Officer Roy Walker broadcasting the first description of the Tippit suspect over the police radio between 1:28pm-1:29pm.  So when did the description pass into the hands of the media for Johnny Brewer to hear it on the radio prior to Oswald entering his shop lobby?  The entire time frame rests on the answer to this question.


Last edited by Lee Farley on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 9:35 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 9:32 pm

From Paul Bentley’s report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald:

“At 1:40 pm on November 22, 1963, Captain G. M. Doughty and Sgt. W Barnes received a phone call to Tenth and Patton Streets reporting the shooting of Officer J. D. Tippit.  As they were preparing to leave City Hall, I asked Captain Doughty if I could go with them and I was told that I could.  We proceeded to the location and after we had been there about five (5) minutes a call came out that the shooting suspect was in the Texas Theater.”

If we examine Bentley's time-frame we have to accept that upon receiving the call at City Hall at 1:40 pm he, Doughty and Barnes descended from the City Hall offices, then got into a police car in the basement, left City Hall over to the scene of the Tippit shooting and that they arrived there in one (1) minute if, as Bentley says, they were at the Tippit scene for five (5) minutes before they heard the 1:45-1:46 pm call about the suspect entering the theater.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 9:43 pm

Hardly a reliable source of information but certainly a source that promotes the official events, Wikipedia has this entry concerning Julia Postal's phone call from the Texas Theater:

"Shoe store manager Johnny Brewer testified that he saw Oswald "ducking into" the entrance alcove of his store. Suspicious of this activity, Brewer watched Oswald continue up the street and slip into the nearby Texas Theater without paying. He alerted the theater's ticket clerk, who telephoned police [199] at about 1:40 pm."

199 - Testimony of Julia Postal 7 H 11.


The interesting thing about 'time' when we look at the events from the point of Oswald allegedly entering Johnny Brewer's lobby to the point of his arrest in the theater is that during the Warren Commission testimony of Johnny Brewer, Julia Postal and Warren Burroughs not one of these incredibly important witnesses was asked about the time that the events they took part in took place.


The nearest we get to anybody from the Warren Commission being concerned about the timings involved is when they asked Johnny Brewer the following questions and he has a very convenient moment of forgetfulness:


Mr. BELIN - Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do? 
Mr. BREWER - Than I walked toward the theatre. 
Mr. BELIN - At an average pace, or above average? 
Mr. BREWER - I don't know. 
Mr. BELIN - You don't remember? About how long after you got to the theatre did the police come in, if you can remember? 
Mr. BREWER - I don't remember that either. 
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember about what time it was when the police came in? 
Mr. BREWER - No. 


I've been at this too long to not be suspicious of this type of tactic from the Warren Commission lawyers.  The timing of these events was fundamental to the investigation and the topic was completely avoided.  These are simple questions:

"What time did you see the man enter your lobby, Mr. Brewer?"
"What time did Mr. Brewer approach you about the man entering the theater, Miss Postal?"
"What time did you call the police, Miss Postal?"
"What time did Mr. Brewer approach you, Mr. Burroughs?"

Yet they were never asked.

Brewer's forgetfulness concerning the time that the police turned up is incredibly strange to me because if the other testimony that him and Postal gave is accurate then we are talking about a period of time that lasted approximately ten (10) minutes if, that is, we can get the time stamp of when the earliest opportunity Brewer had to hear an Oswald description on public radio.  If there is no way Brewer could have heard this description on public radio then he either:

a) Heard no description of the suspect and lied in his statement
b) Heard the description on another type of radio or through other means

Prior to the police descending on the Texas Theater we have another event that also has question marks over its timing, and a lot more besides.  The Library false alarm with Adrian Hamby.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 12:02 am

Lee, the following from Bill Drenas article on the Top Ten Records sighting of Tippit.

"One of the first reports of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff was on Dallas radio station KLIF at 1:33 P.M"

Trying to find my DPD transcript with no success at the moment.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 12:42 am

Colin Crow wrote:Lee, the following from Bill Drenas article on the Top Ten Records sighting of Tippit.

"One of the first reports of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff was on Dallas radio station KLIF at 1:33 P.M"

Trying to find my DPD transcript with no success at the moment.

Thanks, Colin.  The timing of which fits the Brewer events but we need to establish whether a suspect description was also publicly broadcast as per the FBI statement of Brewer and also establish the source of Drenas' KLIF claim.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 12:58 am

Lee Farley wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Lee, the following from Bill Drenas article on the Top Ten Records sighting of Tippit.

"One of the first reports of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff was on Dallas radio station KLIF at 1:33 P.M"

Trying to find my DPD transcript with no success at the moment.

Thanks, Colin.  The timing of which fits the Brewer events but we need to establish whether a suspect description was also publicly broadcast as per the FBI statement of Brewer and also establish the source of Drenas' KLIF claim.

The KLIF citation is "National Archives".

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 1:33 am

Colin Crow wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:Lee, the following from Bill Drenas article on the Top Ten Records sighting of Tippit.

"One of the first reports of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff was on Dallas radio station KLIF at 1:33 P.M"

Trying to find my DPD transcript with no success at the moment.

Thanks, Colin.  The timing of which fits the Brewer events but we need to establish whether a suspect description was also publicly broadcast as per the FBI statement of Brewer and also establish the source of Drenas' KLIF claim.

The KLIF citation is "National Archives".

Cheers, Colin.

Brewer said he was listening to KLIF that afternoon and if we take the official time of the Tippit murder into account (1:15 pm) then it took approximately 18 minutes for the news to filter through to the radio stations that an Officer had been shot.  One minute after that 1:33 pm KLIF radio report the first Tippit suspect description was broadcast over the police radio timed on the logs between 1:34 pm and 1:35 pm by Patrolman H. W. Summers:

"I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complexted, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt, and (. . . ?). Last seen running on the north side of the street from Patton, on Jefferson, on East Jefferson. And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand."


So, taking Dale Myers time of 1:36 pm as the point in time when Oswald walked into Johnny Brewer's lobby and we can safely say that Brewer DID NOT hear any description of the Tippit suspect over KLIF (or any other radio station) in relation to the Tippit murder, UNLESS he was listening to a police radio.  And if Brewer was listening to a police radio that afternoon then the appearance of "Oswald" in his store just over one minute after the police dispatch is just asking me to swallow too much.  Consider also that the description given by Summers was not the description given by Brewer when he was interviewed by the FBI because the only thing that came close was Brewer saying the person in his lobby was 5' 9" or 5' 10":


“He [Brewer] said he also heard a radio broadcast describing the suspect and the man he observed in the store foyer resembled this person.  In other words, he was in his early 20’s, short stature, weighing 145 to 150 pounds, about 5’ 9” or 5’ 10”.”

Next step: was Brewer meaning that he had heard a description of the JFK assassin on the radio and if so what time, if any, was one broadcast?


Last edited by Lee Farley on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 3:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 3:36 am

Brewer and the IBM men

Some of the more seasoned JFK researchers will well be aware of the interview that Johnny Calvin Brewer gave to the author of No Case to Answer Ian Griggs. 

In that interview Brewer said something remarkable that was never mentioned in any of his statements with the DPD or the FBI and certainly wasn't mentioned when he gave his Warren Commission testimony.

Brewer claimed that in his shop, at the moment Oswald allegedly entered the lobby, were two other men.  Brewer told Griggs that they worked for IBM.  He claimed to have known them for quite a while but unfortunately could not remember their names.  When Oswald appeared and Brewer began following him, these "IBM men" stayed behind in his store.  When Brewer got back to his store the "IBM men" were gone and they had quite conveniently closed up shop for him.

There may be some small clues in Johnny Brewer's testimony that could mean something not least the following:

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear over the radio that the President had died? 
Mr. BREWER - I heard a rumor. They said that----one of the Secret Service men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor. 


The reason I am quite suspicious of the above Warren Commission quote is not because it sticks out like a sore thumb. No.  It is because of the possible presence of "Secret Service" agents at the library false alarm at the exact time that Oswald is entering Johnny Brewer's lobby.  In Detective Marvin Bukh's report of December 3rd he claims:

"We next heard the call regarding the suspect being in the Branch Library on Jefferson. We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated that the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously."


At the time of these events Brewer was never invited to a police lineup to identify Oswald.  He mentioned nothing about other people being in his store who were also privy to this situation.  His story conflicts in many areas with that of Julia Postal.  And let's not forget this; the day before he appeared before the Warren Commission he was given a promotion by his company with a bigger store, more responsibility and, of course, a bigger salary.  Impeccable timing.

I will next post the strange story of Adrian Hamby and the demands made of him by "Secret Service" agents prior to the lock down of the library.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Redfern on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 4:14 am

David Von Pein has posted links to recordings of KLIF, KRLD* and other radio and TV channels during the assassination.

The KLIF recording is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mo2pl59XDU

The first - very brief - mention of a police officer being killed in Oak Cliff is at 2.11.23-33. I think this corresponds to 1.41 pm but there are few time checks and the tape might have been recording at too quick a speed. 

* Just in passing, is the KRLD recording contemporaneous or was this the one that had bits re-recorded or added?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:27 am

Redfern wrote:David Von Pein has posted links to recordings of KLIF, KRLD* and other radio and TV channels during the assassination.

The KLIF recording is here:



The first - very brief - mention of a police officer being killed in Oak Cliff is at 2.11.23-33. I think this corresponds to 1.41 pm but there are few time checks and the tape might have been recording at too quick a speed. 

* Just in passing, is the KRLD recording contemporaneous or was this the one that had bits re-recorded or added?
The KBOX recording is the one that had bits re-recorded or added.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:38 am

FWIW, I had reckoned in 2009 when I wrote my book that Brewer saw someone in his lobby at "approximately 1:35"

It never sat right that the DPD would wait until December 6 to obtain an affidavit from Brewer. Plenty of opportunity to iron out troublesome details.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Redfern on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:58 am

Paul Klein wrote:The KBOX recording is the one that had bits re-recorded or added.

Thanks.  The KRLD Youtube tape sounds as if it has been edited - I'm trying to match the timing of known events with when they appear on the tape.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:25 am

Redfern wrote:
Paul Klein wrote:The KBOX recording is the one that had bits re-recorded or added.

Thanks.  The KRLD Youtube tape sounds as if it has been edited - I'm trying to match the timing of known events with when they appear on the tape.
I first heard the KBOX recording while watching 3 Shots That Changed America. It paused just before the shots occurred. I started a post in a JFK forum seeking further information and received a PM from none other than Gary Mack advising me that parts had been re-recorded for a radio special.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:35 am

It's been a while since I've been into the police dispatch transcripts and those of you who have used them in the past know there are different versions.

For the sake of accuracy the first Tippit suspect description was put out over police radio, according to the transcripts, at 1:22pm:

"White male about 30, 5'8", black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks."

This description was repeated by dispatcher and then repeated again at 1:24 pm.

So the first police broadcast was 1:22 PM and not 1:33 PM as I stated in a previous post.

I must say though, I do have doubts that 1:22 PM is conceivable if the official story maintains that the shooting was only called through by the witnesses using the radio between 1:16 PM and 1:17 PM and then the dispatcher spends 3 minutes getting the shooting location wrong.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

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