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Question Concerning Time

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Martin Hay on Thu 09 Jan 2014, 5:14 am

Ok, I have a question that's related to the overall theme of this thread but if the moderators think it would be better posted elsewhere then please do move it.

My question is, is there a record of the Davis sisters call to the police? Their testimony indicates that they heard the shots, rushed to the door, saw a gunman leave, and immediately called the police. But I don't recall ever seeing a record of this call. And it seems to me that the time this call took place would almost definitively answer the question of whether or not Oswald had time to get to the scene.

Anyone know?

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 12:18 am

Martin,

From the horses "mouth"   http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart.
Now, multiply this by two since the police department was operating on two radio frequencies. For convenience they were referred to as Channel 1 and Channel 2. Calls for police service or information as well as interdepartmental messages were placed through the police communications office. Telephone clerks trained for the task handled the initial contacts. Telephone calls which required that an officer be sent to render a service were transcribed by hand on "call sheets" to inform the radio dispatcher as to the location and nature of the service request. The telephone clerk inserted the call sheet into the nearest time clock, causing the call sheet to be stamped with a "call received" time. The operator then sent the call sheet to the dispatcher by way of a conveyer belt which passed continuously between operators sitting opposite each other at the telephone stations. The conveyer belt terminated at the radio operator's console. The radio operator, upon receiving a call sheet, would select the officer appropriate to handle the call, dispatch the call to that officer, and stamp the call sheet with a "call dispatched" time. When the officer assigned a call had rendered the necessary service, he would inform the dispatcher that he was "clear." The dispatcher would then stamp the call sheet to obtain a "call cleared" time, and inform the officer of his clearing time. On November 22, 1963, the regular business of the department was conducted on Channel 1, and radio traffic associated with the President's visit was conducted on Channel 2. Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14. Time intervals of less than one minute were never used. Likewise, the time stated in periodic station identification time checks was not always exact. During quiet intervals, station time checks were usually on time. However, radio operators did not interrupt radio traffic in progress just to give a station check. Accordingly, an operator might give, say, the 10:30 check as 10:30 when it was actually 10:29 or perhaps 10:31 or later. On another occasion, that same operator might state, "10:31 KKB 364," the correct time even though he was at least a minute late.
In a later chapter more definition will be given to estimating time as exactly as possible under the circumstances. The reader may then decide whether those methods and assumptions are acceptable. For now, however, a brief statement with regard to "time" during the assassination period is as follows:

Channels 1 and 2 were in close synchronization, with Channel 2 announced time running approximately 15 seconds ahead of Channel 1. Accordingly, where a determination was necessary, a 15-second adjustment is used. Therefore, Channel 1 plus 15 seconds equals Channel 2 time: Channel 2 less 15 seconds equals Channel 1 time.
There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.
By noting the stated times and the duration of messages in the minutes preceding the incident of the open microphone, I have, for practical purposes, fixed the time for the start of the five-minute open mike episode at 12:29:10 p.m. (Channel 1 time). Time statements broadcast later confirm this as a rational assumption. (See PART II, CHAPTER FIVE for technical details demonstrating this confirmation.) Since it is important to have a zero-base from which one might project future time points, a decision was necessary. In using the start of the five-minute interval, and 12:29:10 (Channel 1) as the zero-base, with subsequent time factored thereon, "time" would at least be constant if not absolutely accurate. If not absolutely accurate, time statements cannot be more than a second or two off. The reader is encouraged to reach an independent decision based on the transcriptions of the radio transmissions contained in the Appendix.


Also: Murray Jackson:Tippit murder
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20366


For further searches:
DAVIS, VIRGINIA RUTH MRS. CHARLES DAVIS
Sources:Warren Report (7, 167-8, 171, 651-2); WC 3 (343,346-7); WC 4 (217); WC 6 (454-68); WC 7 (153-4,157, 250); WC 24 (206, 298); CD 205, p. 207; CD 630(f); CD 897 (234); Accessories After the Fact, Meagher (258, 276, 430); Rush to Judgment, Lane (187, 198, 201); Nov. 22: You Are the Jury, Belin (82-3, 85, 88-94, 112, 210, 293, 399, 401, 466, 485); Whitewash, Weisberg (120-3, 152); Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy? Joesten (114)

DAVIS, BARBARA JEANETTE (MRS. TROY LEE DAVIS)
Sources:WC Report (7, 167-68, 171, 174-75, 651-52); WC Vol. 3 (342-50); WC Vol. 4 (217); WC Vol. 6 (456, 458, 461, 463-64, 466); WC Vol. 7 (153-54, 156-57, 250-51); CD 205, p. 207; CD 630; Whitewash, Vol.I, Weisberg (120-23, 152); Rush to Judgment, Lane (198, 201); Accessories After the Fact, Meagher, (258, 271-272, 274-275, 430); Day Kennedy Was Shot, Bishop (417, 434); The Assassinations, Scott & Hoch (23, 59, 60, 77, 79-80, 83-84, 252)
Mary's
Comments:
Heard shots that killed Tippit. The above phone number was in Crafard's notebook listed to Leora Miller. (??)

MILLER, LEORA -----
Sources:WC Vol 24, p. 403; CD 4, p. 497
Mary's
Comments:
Her name and number in Larry Crafard's notebook. Her phone number was also listed to Barbara Jeannette Davis. (???)


http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Contents.pdf
Has a list with Crafard notebook listed under Andrew Armstrong
Could someone check the number in Crafard Notebook against Davis phone number!

Are these important call sheets with time stamps from 11/22 gone the way of the Oswald Sea bags?
I will look again tomorrow...

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/33/3300-001.gif

Ambulance for Oswald, call sheet:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer
/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=141762


http://books.google.com/books?id=7jrKTKDhvfkC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=dallas+police+department+dispatch+call+sheet&source=bl&ots=WltQaJMZls&sig=-36V99JE1kCoX1J553wGu6HEOqc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3p_OUvHTE5DxoATJ_oHgAQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dallas%20police%20department%20dispatch%20call%20sheet&f=false

Next page of Bug's book states the DPD were flooded with call sheets!

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Martin Hay on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 7:04 am

Thanks, Ed.

I wonder if anyone has ever looked for these call sheets before? I guess we shouldn't really expect to find them.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 9:26 am

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Cooper%20John%20Sherman/Item%2023.pdf

No problem Martin,
If the call sheets were never saved I could understand as the dispatcher had a daily call sheet log and kept a tally of calls missed etc. But this was no ORDINARY missed call. Seems Bugliosi is putting all his eggs in a basket with no bottom. Seems the incoming call sheet would be a better way of establishing a time than their, off by several minutes, radio reports.
Where are the daily logs for the call sheets even if the individual sheets were routinely tossed out (again doubtful)
As you can see the records were kept to at least admonish those who missed a radio call from a call sheet.


Plenty of info from 11/24 but scant from the more important day of 22nd when both a DPD officer and a President were shot and killed!

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338062/m1/1/


Last edited by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 9:44 am

Another missed call sheet:

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337475/m1/51/


From Edforum:

Myers discusses this at page 101 of With Malice and the time-stamp by Hughes was indeed 1.18. The call to Hughes was relayed by "the Dallas police", no name or other ID, and no indication of the time the DPD received the call.

On page 90 of WM Myers says that one DELVIS TAYLOR, working for the DPD, took the phone call from LJ Lewis (made from the Reynolds car dealership on Jefferson) and wrote a call sheet which he dropped in a conveyor belt that went to dispatcher, Murray Jackson. As incredible as it may seem, there is no indication that Taylor time-stamped the call sheet. If that call sheet ever surfaced in the record, then Myers for one did not come across it.
...
An earlier thread on this forum discusses the case of MARGIE BARNES, "a secretary in the communications center of the Dallas Police Department Radio Patrol Division" who was not at work that day because she received an unexpected invitation to JFK's Trade Mart luncheon. According to the LA Free Press, Barnes's job included receiving emergency calls, and presumably that would include time-stamping the call sheets. It may be that this DELVIS TAYLOR was the stand-in for Ms. Barnes. Some observers think that Ms. Barnes's absence from work that day may have been the result of something more than coincidence, but I don't know what to make of it. Here is the link:
http://educationforu...h...c=7517&st=0



From what I gather most of the time stamps we have are when the call was cleared. This could mean the various calls, be it ambulance, funeral, etc are given a time when the action is completed, or cleared.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:47 am

James C Bowles, the Dallas Police Departments Communications Supervisor in 1963 wrote this concerning the police dispatch recordings from 11/22 and the subsequent handling of them by the FBI:

"I have no reason to suspect that the FBI did anything with them [recordings] because the conversation on the tape is wholly consistent with what people who were actively present remembered from that day. No one determined anything. But here you would have to impeach the integrity of the FBI and their laboratory if you want to question whether or not there was an alteration of the tapes."

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:32 pm

Impeach I will!

Now compare the 2 in the time of death in this report to all other 2's on that page.
It is different and made by a different typewriter.


http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/tippit_j_d/tippit_j_d.pdf

Would appear 1:05 is the time they "corrected" wink wink

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:59 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Impeach I will!

Now compare the 2 in the time of death in this report to all other 2's on that page.
It is different and made by a different typewriter.


http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/tippit_j_d/tippit_j_d.pdf

Would appear 1:05 is the time they "corrected" wink wink
Ed, FWIW, it does look different. 

The only thing is, there doesn't appear to be any trace of tampering - unless the top of that 5 is skinny because it accidentally got brushed?  

White-out was available then - direct from inventor's home in Dallas... Mike Nesmith's mom...

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:57 pm

Nesmith!
Hey Hey They Monkey'd with it Greg!
Gotta love his "Elephant Parts", funny stuff.

Could be white-out, the old school way was simply to place a small square of paper over the offending digit or letter and copy it. Then line it up in a typewriter to add the corrected digit/letter.
That 2 just isn't from the same typewriter.
 The loss of image in the beginning of word "INFORMATION" leads me to believe it is a copier trick.
It probably read 1:15 or even 1:05 as I have seen elsewhere.

~Ed

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:27 pm

It is also the only 2 that extends above the top level of other numbers.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:48 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Nesmith!
Hey Hey They Monkey'd with it Greg!
Gotta love his "Elephant Parts", funny stuff.

Could be white-out, the old school way was simply to place a small square of paper over the offending digit or letter and copy it. Then line it up in a typewriter to add the corrected digit/letter.
That 2 just isn't from the same typewriter.
 The loss of image in the beginning of word "INFORMATION" leads me to believe it is a copier trick.
It probably read 1:15 or even 1:05 as I have seen elsewhere.

~Ed
You're probably right, Ed.

But I think the cops (or some other interested party) did resort to white-out in another instance. The license plate on the car parked at Walker's. There is a photo showing what appears to be white-out covering it (the plate) - before someone decided to try and scrape it off and left a hole in the photo...

I did a little research on white-out a few years back when I first saw those photos. Imagine my surprise when I discovered it initially was only available in Dallas...

But I don't want to hijack this.

The 5 with the thin top bothers me. Trouble is there are no other 5s to compare it to.
--------------
I'll have to check out Elephant Parts -- don't recall it at all...

_________________
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 9:31 pm

You can compare the 5 in the WH-5133 telephone number to the thin 5 Greg.

Yes the strange 2 is larger and does extend above the other text unlike any other 2 in the document Traveller.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by greg parker on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 10:26 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:You can compare the 5 in the WH-5133 telephone number to the thin 5 Greg.

Yes the strange 2 is larger and does extend above the other text unlike any other 2 in the document Traveller.
You're right again, Ed.

Firstly, the more I look at those 2s, the clearer the differences become.

Secondly, the phone number seems to bear out my concerns over the "5". In the phone number, the "1" and "5" appear to be the same size, whereas the "5" in the body of the report appears to be smaller than the other numbers. I am cognizant of the fact there may be perfectly rational and simple explanations for that. The "2" issue does seem more cut and dry.

_________________
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ray Mitcham on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 12:59 am

The bottom of the "2" is also above the level of the bottom of the other numbers.

(Many moons ago, I used to sell typewriters, and it appears to me that the letter has been inserted afterwards as it is the only number which is not aligned to the others.)

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 3:49 am

Item impeached.
~Ed

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 5:20 am

I blew the image up 400% and cropped to better compare/contrast the numbers.
 
The 2s:
 

 
The 5s:
 


The 2 looks funny. I'm not sure about the 5.

Superb attention to detail, Ed.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 6:15 am

At least they tried harder than they did on this one, Ed.  The problem with the document below is regardless of which time is used, 1:00 PM, 1:05 PM, 1:10 PM or 1:15 PM, Tippit was either pronounced dead 15, 10 or 5 minutes before he was shot or he was pronounced dead 30 seconds after he was shot.






Last edited by Lee Farley on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 8:59 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 7:22 am

Lee Farley wrote:
It could even be 1:05 as well, Lee. You'd think the person who typed this up would have seen the time they typed was gibberish and corrected it to make it readable before it left his/her hands. But then, that would've violated the official policy of opacity, wouldn't it.

Impeach!

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 7:37 am

Even Tippit's death certificate states he was pronounced dead before he was shot.

The time of injury is 1:18pm.  The time of death is 1:15pm.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 7:42 am

Stan Dane wrote:
Lee Farley wrote:
It could even be 1:05 as well, Lee. You'd think the person who typed this up would have seen the time they typed was gibberish and corrected it to make it readable before it left his/her hands. But then, that would've violated the official policy of opacity, wouldn't it.

Impeach!

I've edited my post to include the other options, Stan.  I also noticed my dyscalculia rearing its head again.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 8:15 am

Lee Farley wrote:Even Tippit's death certificate states he was pronounced dead before he was shot.

The time of injury is 1:18pm.  The time of death is 1:15pm.

Have you seen Tippit's death certificate? I searched for a long time and was never able to find it.

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 8:18 am

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1164&sid=27741793

Photo posted below


Last edited by Lee Farley on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 8:21 am


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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Colin Crow on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 8:35 am

To me it seems the original was 1.00 and then changed to 1.15.

Obviously everyone in Dallas only filled out times in 15 minute intervals. Eg Whalley. Smile

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Re: Question Concerning Time

Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 9:40 am

Have a read through this page of Roger Warner's and Elmer Moore's December 1, 1963, United States Secret Service report on the assassination of JFK and the Tippit murder and ask yourself if what happened on this page occurred:



Then how on earth could they have made this mistake if the dispatch recordings are the same as the ones we have today?



The USSS had copies of the original recordings and still came to the conclusion that Tippit was shot at approximately 1:00 PM.


Last edited by Lee Farley on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 10:20 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Question Concerning Time

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