Linnie Bags a Whopper

I feel compelled to revisit the rifle sack story and Linnie-Mae’s involvement in the creation of that and try and establish a chronology for the time shortly before and after the sack appeared out front the TSBD held aloft with some sort of stick or rod by a detective.

Also to try and establish the moments just prior to and after Linnie-Mae’s divulging of the news of a suspicious case or sack carried by Oswald that morning to detectives at Ruth Paines house.

In my opinion the suspicious sack is a complete fabrication – a creation used to assist in the framing of Oswald.
Crucially Randle’s timing of her telling police at the Paines house of that suspicious sack is at or about the same time the sack was seen outside the front steps of the TSBD.

I have come to believe Linnie Mae had prior knowledge of the sack which was to be “discovered” at the TSBD. I believe the sack we see in the photograph held aloft by the detective was planted by person/s unknown and definitely not planted on the sixth floor.


Jack Dougherty could be that person.
 














On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited us
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.

Great question Mick!

The cops were stuck accounting for a rifle in a book store.
How did it get there and when, must have consumed them from 1:50 to about 2:45pm

Dougherty I believe was on the sixth floor during the motorcade.

Perhaps with Piper too.

The cops dragged the lunch sack up from 5th floor.

The rifle sacks insertion into the story at the TSBD must be due to Wesley and Linnie having talked to each other. Either Wes went "directly home" or called her from the hospital.
That was when she went to the Paine's and told the Cops there about Lee and a sack or carton Lee supposedly carried.
How did the cops at the Paine's let their fellow cops at the TSBD know this vital clue?
Did they radio in an APB bag description?
Call headquarters about a suspected sack?
Send back one of those pigeons Baker saw as a message carrier?

How did Montgomery get the Linnie Randall story to make a sack  and how did they f'up the length?

Why didn't she just call police? ...Suspicious enough yet not.

Wesley having worked with curtain rods before is the kicker.

What job was it he un-wrapped rods?

Where was this department store he was previously employed?

Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.



he said, “I need to go out to Irving,” and he said that Marina
had made him some curtains for his apartment. He stayed over in an apartment in Dallas
during the week and would go home with me like on Friday. So, he was going out to
pick up the curtain rods where he could hang the curtains in his apartment.


What department store and where did BWF work at?
What else did that department store sell besides curtain rods?

Ed. Ledoux wrote:
What else did that department store sell besides curtain rods?

Seems like it must have done a trade in baloney sandwiches...

Died a little!

Would a bag of 27 inches be long enough for curtain rods?

Oswald allegedly said Frazier was thinking of a different time when he had curtain rods. I think that's a possibility. I Think it was the weekend before when Oz is looking at an apartment and Ruth is phoning about a washing machine for Marina.
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t283-the-washing-machine-conspiracy

We also know from the HSCA interviews of Shields and Jarman that it was thought that Oswald rode to work every day with Frazier.

Here is Jarman:

Maxwell: Did he associate with any particular person there?


Jarman: No one but -- I can't think of the dude's name, the one that brings - that brought him to work all the time. 
---------------
Maxwell: And you didn't see him [Oswald] anymore after that?


Jarman: No. And the dude he used to ride with Wesley -- I can't think of his name.


Maxwell: Does he still work in the book department [sic]? 


Jarman: Wesley, no. I don't think he's here now --


Maxwell: Did they come to work there together?



Jarman: Yes, he always brought Oswald to work.

Yes Greg, 

In this small exchange so much is said.

Jarman's interview helps us to believe that what Sheilds told the HSCA about Givens yelling out "where's your ride" all the more believable.

It says, at least to me, that Givens did ask that question because Wes had driven Oswald to work every day.

Mick Purdy wrote:Yes Greg, 

In this small exchange so much is said.

Jarman's interview helps us to believe that what Sheilds told the HSCA about Givens yelling out "where's your ride" all the more believable.

It says, at least to me, that Givens did ask that question because Wes had driven Oswald to work every day.

And extrapolating from that, the reason for him going there a day early had to be invented to cover up the fact he was there every day.

The reason given was BS - that Lee had not gone there the previous weekend and so went a day earlier than normal cos he missed Marina (or according to Frazier, to pick up those curtain rods).  

But it was a good lie all round for the frame because now it looked like Oswald made a special "out of routine" trip in order to get his rifle.

greg parker wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:Yes Greg, 

In this small exchange so much is said.

Jarman's interview helps us to believe that what Sheilds told the HSCA about Givens yelling out "where's your ride" all the more believable.

It says, at least to me, that Givens did ask that question because Wes had driven Oswald to work every day.

And extrapolating from that, the reason for him going there a day early had to be invented to cover up the fact he was there every day.

The reason given was BS - that Lee had not gone there the previous weekend and so went a day earlier than normal cos he missed Marina (or according to Frazier, to pick up those curtain rods).  

But it was a good lie all round for the frame because now it looked like Oswald made a special "out of routine" trip in order to get his rifle.

Which in turn brings us to this thread,

Linnie Mae lied to police about Oswald and the sack at or around 3.30pm-thereabouts. That is way before any interrogation or coercion of either Wesley or Randle would have taken place.

To my mind this proves she is a witting participant in the framing of LHO

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Great question Mick!

The cops were stuck accounting for a rifle in a book store.
How did it get there and when, must have consumed them from 1:50 to about 2:45pm

Dougherty I believe was on the sixth floor during the motorcade.

Perhaps with Piper too.

The cops dragged the lunch sack up from 5th floor.

The rifle sacks insertion into the story at the TSBD must be due to Wesley and Linnie having talked to each other. Either Wes went "directly home" or called her from the hospital.
That was when she went to the Paine's and told the Cops there about Lee and a sack or carton Lee supposedly carried.
How did the cops at the Paine's let their fellow cops at the TSBD know this vital clue?
Did they radio in an APB bag description?
Call headquarters about a suspected sack?
Send back one of those pigeons Baker saw as a message carrier?

How did Montgomery get the Linnie Randall story to make a sack  and how did they f'up the length?

Why didn't she just call police? ...Suspicious enough yet not.

Wesley having worked with curtain rods before is the kicker.

What job was it he un-wrapped rods?

Where was this department store he was previously employed?

Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.



he said, “I need to go out to Irving,” and he said that Marina
had made him some curtains for his apartment. He stayed over in an apartment in Dallas
during the week and would go home with me like on Friday. So, he was going out to
pick up the curtain rods where he could hang the curtains in his apartment.


What department store and where did BWF work at?
What else did that department store sell besides curtain rods?

Yes Ed,

Wesley Had to meet up with Linnie-Mae be fore she dropped the dime on Lee. And that would suggest that Frazier either planted the sack or he was the messenger.

This brings me to our friend Jack Dougherty, If Frazier did not plant the sack then I would contend JD did, or even Piper. My guess would be JD. Pure speculation of course

Ed

The cops were stuck accounting for a rifle in a book store.
How did it get there and when, must have consumed them from 1:50 to about 2:45pm

Dougherty I believe was on the sixth floor during the motorcade.

Perhaps with Piper too.

The cops dragged the lunch sack up from 5th floor.

The rifle sacks insertion into the story at the TSBD must be due to Wesley and Linnie having talked to each other. Either Wes went "directly home" or called her from the hospital. 
That was when she went to the Paine's and told the Cops there about Lee and a sack or carton Lee supposedly carried. 
How did the cops at the Paine's let their fellow cops at the TSBD know this vital clue? 
Did they radio in an APB bag description? 
Call headquarters about a suspected sack? 
Send back one of those pigeons Baker saw as a message carrier? 




This is slowly coming together Ed.




Wes makes a sack at home either with or without Linnies knowledge.
Couldn't do it at work could he?


Probably Thursday night.


Lee waits for his ride at the Paines house as per usual Friday morning sometime around 7.15-7.20am and Randle W collects him and takes him in to the TSBD telling him Wes is running late.


Wes heads off at about 7.40-7.45 am. with a brown paper sack.


Lee is dropped off at or near the rear entrance of the TSBD by Bill Randle


Lee is witnessed by JD at the rear entrance and Givens in the Domino room around 7.45am.




Sheilds and Givens sights Frazier on his own at 8.05 in the parking lot near Houston Nth warehouse
telling them after being asked where his rider was , that he has dropped him off at the building.


Frazier walks into the TSBD rear entrance at around 8.10am with the hidden sack on his person.


He will give this sack to JD to plant on the fifth just before the assassination takes place.


Moments after planting the sack, JD will go from the fifth to the sixth and plant the throwdown MC rifle which Piper witnesses and runs from the scene.


JD and Wes will cross paths post assassination, this will be covered up by JD testifying he is running around looking for Truly and Wes will tell authorities he was down in the basement eating lunch.


Once Wes has confirmation from JD that the sack has been left in place on the fifth floor he drives to meet with Linnie to let her know jobs done.




Randle tells Wesley to lay low, knowing he will be a person of interest with the police as soon as she divulges the sack story to them.



Randle drives to the Paines house to drop the dime on Lee and gives police false information regarding Wes's whereabouts




pure speculation of course

Mick, I think you're on to something but may need a tweak.

Not sure why he would plant the sack on the 5th and the rifle on the 6th. Unless I'm missing something. 

Also, according to Tony Frattini, Montgomery is photographed with the bag at 3pm - and Linnie Mae was spilling her guts no earlier than 3:30 (according to the joint DPD report).

However, if you remove their alleged 40 minute wait, the timing is perfect. (that's assuming Tony is right with his time of the Montgomery photo.

hang 5 while I search for something I vaguely recall that might help.

Here it is. From Adamcik's testimony.

Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get there.


The report, which has Adamcik's name on it was actually just authored by Rose and Stovall. In fact, he refers to the WC t the "Rose-Stovall" report once or twice - but not in this instance. They said it was a 40 minute wait. Adamcik says "a few minutes". If that is correct, we are getting closer to having times coordinated with the "finding" of the sack.

Mick Purdy wrote:Not sure why he would plant the sack on the 5th and the rifle on the 6th. Unless I'm missing something. 


No your missing nothing. Not sure whether the sack was planted on the fifith either, sixth will do though.


re the 40 minute time difference I actually don't think thats a huge issue. Ill keep digging but I know I've seen docs which suggest the Randle blabbing to the cops was extremely likely to have been earlier. 


Either way in my mind they would have discovered the sack anywayif it had been laid out flat and Linnie Mae just gave them the low down. IMO


I'll keep digging but I'm not so sure I'm that far off base here, using all of the work thats already been done here at ROKC.

I'm also sure you're not far off base. Either Frazier made the bag at home, or Piper or Dougherty made it before or after normal hours on site - or there was no bag - then Adamcik phoned in the lead that a paper sack might have carried the murder weapon and the cops themselves made it. That last scenario is really the one that requires precise timing. It may also be the most problematic, but not to the point where it can be written off.

On the other hand, the bag does look like it had been folded up which is a problem for Wes making it at home because the folds tend to look like they were made after the bag was made. But maybe he did fold it until he needed it the next morning? Or was it folded like that when it was "found"?

It could also be that JD plants the bag and Linnie-Mae tells Adamcik about it. The bag is found, but ignored as important until Linnie-Mae's info seeps through to the rest of the DPD? In that case - yep - timing is not an issue at all.

I guess all I'm saying is that there are a few possibilities within the framework you're looking at.

I do like JD as the evidence planter. I think he could have been duped into it maybe on the pretext that they were playing a joke on Oswald (or whoever).

On the other hand, the bag does look like it had been folded up which is a problem for Wes making it at home because the folds tend to look like they were made after the bag was made. But maybe he did fold it until he needed it the next morning? Or was it folded like that when it was "found"?


I contend that Wes carried that bag folded inside his shirt or jacket on his way into the TSBD

greg parker wrote:Here it is. From Adamcik's testimony.

Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get there.


The report, which has Adamcik's name on it was actually just authored by Rose and Stovall. In fact, he refers to the WC t the "Rose-Stovall" report once or twice - but not in this instance. They said it was a 40 minute wait. Adamcik says "a few minutes". If that is correct, we are getting closer to having times coordinated with the "finding" of the sack.

Thats it Greg many thanks,

Thats why many researchers believe they actually were at the Paine's house a lot earlier than the Rose-Stovall report suggests.....and that gives the Randle Blabbing and the discovery of the sack in at the TSBD a much more likely fit. IMO

McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

This is according to Colin Crow
 

Day was absent for some time when he left the 6th floor after dusting the rifle. The lunch sack and pop bottle were dusted after the men had finished at the spot where the rifle was spotted. Hicks assisted them but did not arrive until about 3pm. Note that the bags, chicken and pop bottle were removed from the TSBD by Montgomery and Johnson at 3pm.

There is also this from the Nov22 site:

The earliest known photograph of the bag dates from about three hours after the police had entered the building. William Allen of the Dallas Times Herald photographed Detective Montgomery on the front steps of the TSBD, holding the bag; see Richard Trask, Pictures of the Pain, Yeoman Press, 1994, p.552.
http://22november1963.org.uk/tsbd-sixth-floor-paper-bag-genuine



Which means it was a little later than 3:30.


I wonder if McAdams has made a typo and meant 3:19?


That's about midway between Crow and Trask.

Barto has covered this off previously. with an esquisite close up of the wacth on Montomery's hand ...the guy holding the sack outside the TSBD.....it says its 3.00pm

I just need to find that pic and we have the time stamp.

It was posted by Bart on the old forum it is a valid timestamp.

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

Redfern if I'm not mistaken that is the timeline given for the bag being "discovered" inside the building. Quite separate to the pic outside the building at 3.00pm

greg parker wrote:

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

This is according to Colin Crow
 

Day was absent for some time when he left the 6th floor after dusting the rifle. The lunch sack and pop bottle were dusted after the men had finished at the spot where the rifle was spotted. Hicks assisted them but did not arrive until about 3pm. Note that the bags, chicken and pop bottle were removed from the TSBD by Montgomery and Johnson at 3pm.

There is also this from the Nov22 site:

The earliest known photograph of the bag dates from about three hours after the police had entered the building. William Allen of the Dallas Times Herald photographed Detective Montgomery on the front steps of the TSBD, holding the bag; see Richard Trask, Pictures of the Pain, Yeoman Press, 1994, p.552.
http://22november1963.org.uk/tsbd-sixth-floor-paper-bag-genuine



Which means it was a little later than 3:30.


I wonder if McAdams has made a typo and meant 3:19?


That's about midway between Crow and Trask.

To reiterate, there is a pic posted by Bart in close up of Montgomery's watch and it says 3.00pm for the pic outside

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm.


Bart has proven that the pic of Montgomery is at 3.00pm so McAdams is incorrect