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Linnie Bags a Whopper
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Mick_Purdy
greg_parker
Ed.Ledoux
TerryWMartin
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Mick_Purdy- Posts : 2426
Join date : 2013-07-26
Location : Melbourne Australia
Linnie Bags a Whopper
Fri 03 Feb 2017, 4:53 pm
First topic message reminder :
I feel compelled to revisit the rifle sack story and Linnie-Mae’s involvement in the creation of that and try and establish a chronology for the time shortly before and after the sack appeared out front the TSBD held aloft with some sort of stick or rod by a detective.
Also to try and establish the moments just prior to and after Linnie-Mae’s divulging of the news of a suspicious case or sack carried by Oswald that morning to detectives at Ruth Paines house.
In my opinion the suspicious sack is a complete fabrication – a creation used to assist in the framing of Oswald.
Crucially Randle’s timing of her telling police at the Paines house of that suspicious sack is at or about the same time the sack was seen outside the front steps of the TSBD.
I have come to believe Linnie Mae had prior knowledge of the sack which was to be “discovered” at the TSBD. I believe the sack we see in the photograph held aloft by the detective was planted by person/s unknown and definitely not planted on the sixth floor.
Jack Dougherty could be that person.
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.
I feel compelled to revisit the rifle sack story and Linnie-Mae’s involvement in the creation of that and try and establish a chronology for the time shortly before and after the sack appeared out front the TSBD held aloft with some sort of stick or rod by a detective.
Also to try and establish the moments just prior to and after Linnie-Mae’s divulging of the news of a suspicious case or sack carried by Oswald that morning to detectives at Ruth Paines house.
In my opinion the suspicious sack is a complete fabrication – a creation used to assist in the framing of Oswald.
Crucially Randle’s timing of her telling police at the Paines house of that suspicious sack is at or about the same time the sack was seen outside the front steps of the TSBD.
I have come to believe Linnie Mae had prior knowledge of the sack which was to be “discovered” at the TSBD. I believe the sack we see in the photograph held aloft by the detective was planted by person/s unknown and definitely not planted on the sixth floor.
Jack Dougherty could be that person.
G. F. ROSE - R. S. STOVALL - J. P. ADAMCIK
REPORT ON INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S MURDER
On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited usREPORT ON INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S MURDER
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.
G.F. Rose
R.S. Stovall
J.P. Adamcik
R.S. Stovall
J.P. Adamcik
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:11 am
What did Adamcik tell the WC about Linnie and the bag/box?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box.
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box.
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Ed.Ledoux- Posts : 3361
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 4:07 pm
I think Day understates the case that "no one has identified this bag to the Dallas Police Department."
Identical paper means it was made around lunch time and placed near the snipers nest ....folded
or
It was made by the DPD.
Folded.
Unfolded.
and carried out on a stick
Colin_Crow- Posts : 322
Join date : 2013-08-03
Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 4:55 pm
And they just happened to get the samples from one of four possible paper and tape dispensers.....fortunate.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:46 pm
No takers for made off site, and placed their by JD then?
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 6:30 pm
If placed there by JD Mick, why not put it where it was said to be found? Only a bored Mongomery discovered it by accident. I do think JD was part of the floor crew....maybe he was the porter who took assassins up or discovered them on the 6th? If I was going to get the rifle to set up Oswald I'd take his seabag to leave there. There were two in Paine's garage.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 7:40 pm
Colin, do you believe there were shots fired from the TSBD? I don't believe there were and therefore no assassins in the building. Only framers.Colin Crow wrote:If placed there by JD Mick, why not put it where it was said to be found? Only a bored Mongomery discovered it by accident. I do think JD was part of the floor crew....maybe he was the porter who took assassins up or discovered them on the 6th? If I was going to get the rifle to set up Oswald I'd take his seabag to leave there. There were two in Paine's garage.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:25 pm
Paul, I think that the trajectories indicate the TSBD or Daltex or both. Other things like Euins, Baker's actions etc indicate either shots, blanks or firecrackers. At least one shot from the rear hit Kennedy in the back.
- GuestGuest
Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:20 am
Cheers Colin. I'm glad you didn't mention Brennan. IMO escorting assassins to and from the 6th floor is not a good plan. The risks are many. If there were shots it'd be from someone already up there.Colin Crow wrote:Paul, I think that the trajectories indicate the TSBD or Daltex or both. Other things like Euins, Baker's actions etc indicate either shots, blanks or firecrackers. At least one shot from the rear hit Kennedy in the back.
greg_parkerAdmin- Posts : 8368
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:30 am
Let me qualify this by saying I have nil, zero, zilch expertise in working out trajectories or in ballistics.Colin Crow wrote:Paul, I think that the trajectories indicate the TSBD or Daltex or both. Other things like Euins, Baker's actions etc indicate either shots, blanks or firecrackers. At least one shot from the rear hit Kennedy in the back.
I base this on other evidence - i.e. that yes, shots fired from both. I think Dougherty fired a shot from the 6th floor and I have deep suspicions about the Deltex.
My speculation is that Dougherty was the party who planted certain evidence and fired a shot that he was told was a blank and that it was all part of a joke being played on Oswald.
_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise.
Lachie Hulme
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott
https://gregrparker.com
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:50 am
Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.greg parker wrote:Let me qualify this by saying I have nil, zero, zilch expertise in working out trajectories or in ballistics.Colin Crow wrote:Paul, I think that the trajectories indicate the TSBD or Daltex or both. Other things like Euins, Baker's actions etc indicate either shots, blanks or firecrackers. At least one shot from the rear hit Kennedy in the back.
I base this on other evidence - i.e. that yes, shots fired from both. I think Dougherty fired a shot from the 6th floor and I have deep suspicions about the Deltex.
My speculation is that Dougherty was the party who planted certain evidence and fired a shot that he was told was a blank and that it was all part of a joke being played on Oswald.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:59 am
You may be right Paul. But the evidence to me suggests that Dougherty was as loyal as all get-out to Truly for giving him a job when no one else would and I think if he were to be asked to help play a practical joke on the relative newbie, he'd do it, shot included or not. Put another way - if there was any shot from up there, it was Dougherty.Paul Francisco Paso wrote:Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.greg parker wrote:Let me qualify this by saying I have nil, zero, zilch expertise in working out trajectories or in ballistics.Colin Crow wrote:Paul, I think that the trajectories indicate the TSBD or Daltex or both. Other things like Euins, Baker's actions etc indicate either shots, blanks or firecrackers. At least one shot from the rear hit Kennedy in the back.
I base this on other evidence - i.e. that yes, shots fired from both. I think Dougherty fired a shot from the 6th floor and I have deep suspicions about the Deltex.
My speculation is that Dougherty was the party who planted certain evidence and fired a shot that he was told was a blank and that it was all part of a joke being played on Oswald.
Dougherty is not the suspect if he has left a trail of crumbs leading to someone else.
_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise.
Lachie Hulme
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott
https://gregrparker.com
- GuestGuest
Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:26 am
I agree he'd be the shooter if there were one but it's irrelevant really. He set Oswald up one way or another. Someone had to. Like you say he was loyal too. He wasn't the prime suspect. That was part of the framework. Very simple to do even without having to fire a shot. Dump a rifle and some shells and pretend nothing happened.greg parker wrote:You may be right Paul. But the evidence to me suggests that Dougherty was as loyal as all get-out to Truly for giving him a job when no one else would and I think if he were to be asked to help play a practical joke on the relative newbie, he'd do it, shot included or not. Put another way - if there was any shot from up there, it was Dougherty.Paul Francisco Paso wrote:Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.greg parker wrote:Let me qualify this by saying I have nil, zero, zilch expertise in working out trajectories or in ballistics.Colin Crow wrote:Paul, I think that the trajectories indicate the TSBD or Daltex or both. Other things like Euins, Baker's actions etc indicate either shots, blanks or firecrackers. At least one shot from the rear hit Kennedy in the back.
I base this on other evidence - i.e. that yes, shots fired from both. I think Dougherty fired a shot from the 6th floor and I have deep suspicions about the Deltex.
My speculation is that Dougherty was the party who planted certain evidence and fired a shot that he was told was a blank and that it was all part of a joke being played on Oswald.
Dougherty is not the suspect if he has left a trail of crumbs leading to someone else.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:31 am
You may be right Paul. But the evidence to me suggests that Dougherty was as loyal as all get-out to Truly for giving him a job when no one else would and I think if he were to be asked to help play a practical joke on the relative newbie, he'd do it, shot included or not. Put another way - if there was any shot from up there, it was Dougherty.
Dougherty is not the suspect if he has left a trail of crumbs leading to someone else.
I don't know if Dougherty fired a shot or not Greg, Ed has put a very persuasive case forward suggesting no shots were fired from the TSBD.
Putting that to one side however, JD should have been considered as having played some role, much more closely than he was.
He is as far as I can tell the only caucasion who had the opportunity to plant evidence on the sixth when it was safe to do so.
Like you say Truly seemed to deflect attention away from Dougherty after the assassination. The retard description is a classic piece of this imo.
Dougherty is not the suspect if he has left a trail of crumbs leading to someone else.
I don't know if Dougherty fired a shot or not Greg, Ed has put a very persuasive case forward suggesting no shots were fired from the TSBD.
Putting that to one side however, JD should have been considered as having played some role, much more closely than he was.
He is as far as I can tell the only caucasion who had the opportunity to plant evidence on the sixth when it was safe to do so.
Like you say Truly seemed to deflect attention away from Dougherty after the assassination. The retard description is a classic piece of this imo.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:34 am
Paul:
Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.
Paul, I've always thought that too. It's astounding he wasn't treated in the same way as Oswald or Frazier.
But then again it shouldn't amaze us at all. They had their man.
Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.
Paul, I've always thought that too. It's astounding he wasn't treated in the same way as Oswald or Frazier.
But then again it shouldn't amaze us at all. They had their man.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:43 am
Ruth Paine testified that Linnie Mae had said:
“they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked."
Despite Linnie Mae's denial in her own testimony that she was aware of any possible vacancy, the Warren Commission Report went with Ruth Paine's version:
"One of the neighbors present, Linnie Mae Randle, said that her brother had recently been hired as a schoolbook order filler at the Texas School Book Depository and she thought that the depository might need additional help."
“they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked."
Despite Linnie Mae's denial in her own testimony that she was aware of any possible vacancy, the Warren Commission Report went with Ruth Paine's version:
"One of the neighbors present, Linnie Mae Randle, said that her brother had recently been hired as a schoolbook order filler at the Texas School Book Depository and she thought that the depository might need additional help."
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:00 pm
Colin
If placed there by JD Mick, why not put it where it was said to be found? Only a bored Mongomery discovered it by accident. I do think JD was part of the floor crew....maybe he was the porter who took assassins up or discovered them on the 6th? If I was going to get the rifle to set up Oswald I'd take his seabag to leave there. There were two in Paine's garage.
Colin, I agree the sack story is a mess. I'm probably trying to simplify things way too much.
Again we're left to join dots and speculate, it's infuriating.
IMO he is pretty much the only person who could've planted any evidence just prior to the assassination.
His alibi is weak and shaky and we know Truly protected him in the aftermath.
I also believe that "where it was said to be found" is another one of those pieces which is up for discussion.
Where it was said to be found.
My question is and I know theres no easy answer but who said where it was found and by whom?
You can see where I'm headed here, it is no different to any other statements from Law enforcement officers on this case IMO.
I cannot prove or determine JD planted the sack, I accept that.
What I do know is he was in Truly's pocket, opened the warehouse before others arrived each day, had ample opportunity to take paper from the warehouse and had every opportunity to plant evidence just prior to the assassination.
I know these things don't make it so, but they make a case for extreme suspicion.
Who's to know in reality where the confounded sack was found, are we to rely soley on those police officers accounts.....maybe.
Its possible the cops made it but imo just as possible that JD got the materials and either made the bag himself or gave the materials to Wes to make the sack at home....not impossible and definitley plausible.
IMO JD planted that MC rifle, he is most likely the only person who could have. IMO he would've been doing so under Truly's orders. Whether he planted the sack is in question, I agree.
If placed there by JD Mick, why not put it where it was said to be found? Only a bored Mongomery discovered it by accident. I do think JD was part of the floor crew....maybe he was the porter who took assassins up or discovered them on the 6th? If I was going to get the rifle to set up Oswald I'd take his seabag to leave there. There were two in Paine's garage.
Colin, I agree the sack story is a mess. I'm probably trying to simplify things way too much.
Again we're left to join dots and speculate, it's infuriating.
IMO he is pretty much the only person who could've planted any evidence just prior to the assassination.
His alibi is weak and shaky and we know Truly protected him in the aftermath.
I also believe that "where it was said to be found" is another one of those pieces which is up for discussion.
Where it was said to be found.
My question is and I know theres no easy answer but who said where it was found and by whom?
You can see where I'm headed here, it is no different to any other statements from Law enforcement officers on this case IMO.
I cannot prove or determine JD planted the sack, I accept that.
What I do know is he was in Truly's pocket, opened the warehouse before others arrived each day, had ample opportunity to take paper from the warehouse and had every opportunity to plant evidence just prior to the assassination.
I know these things don't make it so, but they make a case for extreme suspicion.
Who's to know in reality where the confounded sack was found, are we to rely soley on those police officers accounts.....maybe.
Its possible the cops made it but imo just as possible that JD got the materials and either made the bag himself or gave the materials to Wes to make the sack at home....not impossible and definitley plausible.
IMO JD planted that MC rifle, he is most likely the only person who could have. IMO he would've been doing so under Truly's orders. Whether he planted the sack is in question, I agree.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:04 pm
Linnie even denied the "might need additional help"Mick Purdy wrote:Ruth Paine testified that Linnie Mae had said:
“they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked."
Despite Linnie Mae's denial in her own testimony that she was aware of any possible vacancy, the Warren Commission Report went with Ruth Paine's version:
"One of the neighbors present, Linnie Mae Randle, said that her brother had recently been hired as a schoolbook order filler at the Texas School Book Depository and she thought that the depository might need additional help."
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open.
I am assuming that Paine got innterviewed first and this question was based on Ruthie's statement.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:51 pm
We haven't even got a photo of him. We know fuck all about him. He was treated differently.Mick Purdy wrote:Paul:
Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.
Paul, I've always thought that too. It's astounding he wasn't treated in the same way as Oswald or Frazier.
But then again it shouldn't amaze us at all. They had their man.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 3:16 pm
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964... Linnie Mae March 11, see below
Posted February 16, 2010
Neighbors saw nothing
December 1st was a busy day for Odum and McNeely. They also interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts. All were neighbors of the Paines and Randles. None had seen Oswald as he trudged over from the Paine residence to the Randle house on the morning of the assassination - carrying a long, bulky package or otherwise.[13] This begs the question though, as to why Oswald would risk being seen by neighbors carrying the package which, according to police, resembled a rifle case - especially if he intended using it for assassinating Kennedy later that day. One possible answer (but by no means the only) can be found in what Harry Holmes and Gus Rose said to author Larry Sneed during interviews for the book, No More Silence.
Holmes: Oswald told Fritz that the curtain rods weren't for his room, he had brought them in for a co-worker who needed some. Although some accounts say Oswald told Fritz the bag contained his lunch, he in fact told Fritz (in Holmes' presence) that the bag contained curtain rods for a co-worker.
Rose: Frazier said he didn't think the package had contained curtain rods. He suggested that Oswald leave it in the car, but Oswald refused, saying "No, I need it here." [14] If Oswald had such a package, and did "need it here [inside the TSBD]", it might indicate it contained a rifle he planned to use later with deadly intent. It may also indicate that it was curtain rods he was bringing in for an unknown fellow employee. In that regard, Holmes and Rose may just have independently corroborated each other.
The car door conundrum
In her very first statement on what she had witnessed, Linnie Mae made no mention of which car door Oswald had placed his package. She merely stated, "I saw him put it in Wesley's car". In her FBI statement made the following day, she declared she had seen him place it "in the back seat area".
By the time the FBI reinterviewed her on Dec 1, she was able to go into more detail, saying that she had seen Oswald open "the right rear door of the car" and, presuming he was getting in, turned to go back to the sink "after" hearing the car door being shut.
It was during her March 11, 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission that she finally admitted the truth. After initially repeating her earlier claims of seeing Oswald place the package in the right back seat area, she was drawn back to it later under questioning by Senator Cooper. To Cooper, she responded, "what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched it in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked". [15] In other words, she did not see Oswald place the package in the right back seat area of the car. It was an assumption on her part. Other evidence presented here suggests either Oswald carried it in his lap the whole way – as had been the case previously, or he initially carried it that way but then threw it in the backseat at Frazier’s suggestion.
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jf...-randle-t24.htm
And what friend he worked with might need curtains for his new place?
A friend who would be living with his extended family.
A friend who told a tale about a bag and curtain rods along with his sister...oops there I've given it away.
Would not BWF be the most likely friend employee to have need of a new place?
Perhaps to be nice Marina knitted some curtains for the guy whom drove Lee home and to workevery day.
If it was a gift or such to Wes then I can see it disappear while Wes is unaccounted for. The Marina made curtains get switched for rods for Lee.
I know they searched the Paine residence for curtain rods and there were some , but did they ever look at Wesley for rods or bags other than check for the rifle and take Wesley's Enfield into custody(did they confiscate his rifle yes?) Did the search party have search warrant and was anything besides an Enfield on it?
Linnie would know if Buell needed curtains for his new place, it wouldn't be a story made of whole cloth.
Cheers, Ed
Greg Parker
Posted February 16, 2010
Neighbors saw nothing
December 1st was a busy day for Odum and McNeely. They also interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts. All were neighbors of the Paines and Randles. None had seen Oswald as he trudged over from the Paine residence to the Randle house on the morning of the assassination - carrying a long, bulky package or otherwise.[13] This begs the question though, as to why Oswald would risk being seen by neighbors carrying the package which, according to police, resembled a rifle case - especially if he intended using it for assassinating Kennedy later that day. One possible answer (but by no means the only) can be found in what Harry Holmes and Gus Rose said to author Larry Sneed during interviews for the book, No More Silence.
Holmes: Oswald told Fritz that the curtain rods weren't for his room, he had brought them in for a co-worker who needed some. Although some accounts say Oswald told Fritz the bag contained his lunch, he in fact told Fritz (in Holmes' presence) that the bag contained curtain rods for a co-worker.
Rose: Frazier said he didn't think the package had contained curtain rods. He suggested that Oswald leave it in the car, but Oswald refused, saying "No, I need it here." [14] If Oswald had such a package, and did "need it here [inside the TSBD]", it might indicate it contained a rifle he planned to use later with deadly intent. It may also indicate that it was curtain rods he was bringing in for an unknown fellow employee. In that regard, Holmes and Rose may just have independently corroborated each other.
The car door conundrum
In her very first statement on what she had witnessed, Linnie Mae made no mention of which car door Oswald had placed his package. She merely stated, "I saw him put it in Wesley's car". In her FBI statement made the following day, she declared she had seen him place it "in the back seat area".
By the time the FBI reinterviewed her on Dec 1, she was able to go into more detail, saying that she had seen Oswald open "the right rear door of the car" and, presuming he was getting in, turned to go back to the sink "after" hearing the car door being shut.
It was during her March 11, 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission that she finally admitted the truth. After initially repeating her earlier claims of seeing Oswald place the package in the right back seat area, she was drawn back to it later under questioning by Senator Cooper. To Cooper, she responded, "what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched it in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked". [15] In other words, she did not see Oswald place the package in the right back seat area of the car. It was an assumption on her part. Other evidence presented here suggests either Oswald carried it in his lap the whole way – as had been the case previously, or he initially carried it that way but then threw it in the backseat at Frazier’s suggestion.
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jf...-randle-t24.htm
And what friend he worked with might need curtains for his new place?
A friend who would be living with his extended family.
A friend who told a tale about a bag and curtain rods along with his sister...oops there I've given it away.
Would not BWF be the most likely friend employee to have need of a new place?
Perhaps to be nice Marina knitted some curtains for the guy whom drove Lee home and to work
If it was a gift or such to Wes then I can see it disappear while Wes is unaccounted for. The Marina made curtains get switched for rods for Lee.
I know they searched the Paine residence for curtain rods and there were some , but did they ever look at Wesley for rods or bags other than check for the rifle and take Wesley's Enfield into custody(did they confiscate his rifle yes?) Did the search party have search warrant and was anything besides an Enfield on it?
Linnie would know if Buell needed curtains for his new place, it wouldn't be a story made of whole cloth.
Cheers, Ed
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 3:18 pm
So very true.....Paul Francisco Paso wrote:We haven't even got a photo of him. We know fuck all about him. He was treated differently.Mick Purdy wrote:Paul:
Even taking a shot from up there is risky. JD is the prime suspect in any other case. I don't believe there were any shots from the TSBD. There is no firm evidence for this other than sketchy testimony.
Paul, I've always thought that too. It's astounding he wasn't treated in the same way as Oswald or Frazier.
But then again it shouldn't amaze us at all. They had their man.
It's worth repeating and stating the bleeding obvious, they had their man by early Friday afternoon. I think it's fair to say it was cast in stone. In the end they did not care about the likes of Braden, Craford, Frazier, Lovelady, Truly, Dougherty, Paine both Michael and Ruth, Marina or the Randles and so the list goes on. If they did Dougherty would have been held and for good reason. But we all know he wasn't and that says enough about the crooked investigation just as much as anything else does.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 3:38 pm
And what friend he worked with might need curtains for his new place?
A friend who would be living with his extended family.
A friend who told a tale about a bag and curtain rods along with his sister...oops there I've given it away.
Would not BWF be the most likely friend employee to have need of a new place?
Perhaps to be nice Marina knitted some curtains for the guy whom drove Lee home and to workevery day.
If it was a gift or such to Wes then I can see it disappear while Wes is unaccounted for. The Marina made curtains get switched for rods for Lee.
I know they searched the Paine residence for curtain rods and there were some , but did they ever look at Wesley for rods or bags other than check for the rifle and take Wesley's Enfield into custody(did they confiscate his rifle yes?) Did the search party have search warrant and was anything besides an Enfield on it?
Linnie would know if Buell needed curtains for his new place, it wouldn't be a story made of whole cloth.
Cheers, Ed
Like the cut of your cloth Ed,
very nice work, again!
A friend who would be living with his extended family.
A friend who told a tale about a bag and curtain rods along with his sister...oops there I've given it away.
Would not BWF be the most likely friend employee to have need of a new place?
Perhaps to be nice Marina knitted some curtains for the guy whom drove Lee home and to work
If it was a gift or such to Wes then I can see it disappear while Wes is unaccounted for. The Marina made curtains get switched for rods for Lee.
I know they searched the Paine residence for curtain rods and there were some , but did they ever look at Wesley for rods or bags other than check for the rifle and take Wesley's Enfield into custody(did they confiscate his rifle yes?) Did the search party have search warrant and was anything besides an Enfield on it?
Linnie would know if Buell needed curtains for his new place, it wouldn't be a story made of whole cloth.
Cheers, Ed
Like the cut of your cloth Ed,
very nice work, again!
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 5:37 pm
never the right questions asked like when Lee came to the door did he have anything in his hands..?
I also have trouble with Linnie reporting this as she did and then what?
She drove off?
To where?
She winds up back at home... with the preacher man?
Did she go to the preacher man?
Then back home.
The cops bring Buell back and they agree to check his rifle and ammo under his bed or was it in the closet?
When they rousted Molina they had a warrant.
Did Molina own a Mauser or was there another patsy whom they were hoping to pin the tail on the donkey, err rifle on the assassin.
So no warrant for the patsy's driver.
A guy whom did see a package as did his sister yet told or said nothing to anyone. Had a rifle as described by reports as matching the murder weapon. Went missing after work. Said he hears Lee Oswald named as a suspect so he hauls ass to his step fathers bedside... maybe he knew someone in/at Huntsville penitentiary that could help Wes out. Or a dying mans wish to save his 'son' would motivate a preacher man, I guess.
Is this cite correct Greg?
CORRIGENDUM
Cite 14
The correct (and complete) quote from Sneed's book is “Somebody in the room at that point asked him what was in the paper bag that he had the next morning when he rode to work with another employee. ‘Well, that was my lunch’. That’s what he told us. ‘Your lunch? Why did you carry a lunch in a big old bag like that’? ‘Well’, he said ‘you don’t always get a bag that just fits your lunch; you take what you can get.’ He was that quick, no mincing around, no trying to make up something. He was then asked, ‘Well, where did you carry it’? ‘I carried it in my lap.’ he said, ‘just like I always carry my lunch’ and the driver said, ‘Throw it over in the back seat’. That’s what he said about it! According to the man who drove him to work the next day he had a rather long brown paper wrapper which might have been a bag. The driver asked him, ‘What’s that?’ as Oswald threw it over the back seat. Oswald told him, ‘That’s some curtain rods.’ I’ve noticed in some of the literature that it was for his room, but he told Captain Fritz previously that it was curtain rods which he was bringing because he didn’t need them. As they were getting out of the car, he supposedly said that the curtain rods were for a fellow at work. In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.
I also have trouble with Linnie reporting this as she did and then what?
She drove off?
To where?
She winds up back at home... with the preacher man?
Did she go to the preacher man?
Then back home.
The cops bring Buell back and they agree to check his rifle and ammo under his bed or was it in the closet?
When they rousted Molina they had a warrant.
Did Molina own a Mauser or was there another patsy whom they were hoping to pin the tail on the donkey, err rifle on the assassin.
So no warrant for the patsy's driver.
A guy whom did see a package as did his sister yet told or said nothing to anyone. Had a rifle as described by reports as matching the murder weapon. Went missing after work. Said he hears Lee Oswald named as a suspect so he hauls ass to his step fathers bedside... maybe he knew someone in/at Huntsville penitentiary that could help Wes out. Or a dying mans wish to save his 'son' would motivate a preacher man, I guess.
Is this cite correct Greg?
CORRIGENDUM
Cite 14
The correct (and complete) quote from Sneed's book is “Somebody in the room at that point asked him what was in the paper bag that he had the next morning when he rode to work with another employee. ‘Well, that was my lunch’. That’s what he told us. ‘Your lunch? Why did you carry a lunch in a big old bag like that’? ‘Well’, he said ‘you don’t always get a bag that just fits your lunch; you take what you can get.’ He was that quick, no mincing around, no trying to make up something. He was then asked, ‘Well, where did you carry it’? ‘I carried it in my lap.’ he said, ‘just like I always carry my lunch’ and the driver said, ‘Throw it over in the back seat’. That’s what he said about it! According to the man who drove him to work the next day he had a rather long brown paper wrapper which might have been a bag. The driver asked him, ‘What’s that?’ as Oswald threw it over the back seat. Oswald told him, ‘That’s some curtain rods.’ I’ve noticed in some of the literature that it was for his room, but he told Captain Fritz previously that it was curtain rods which he was bringing because he didn’t need them. As they were getting out of the car, he supposedly said that the curtain rods were for a fellow at work. In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 6:02 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:Like the cut of your cloth Ed,
very nice work, again!
Your jib ain't bad either Mick.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 6:33 pm
In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.Ed. Ledoux wrote:never the right questions asked like when Lee came to the door did he have anything in his hands..?
I also have trouble with Linnie reporting this as she did and then what?
She drove off?
To where?
She winds up back at home... with the preacher man?
Did she go to the preacher man?
Then back home.
The cops bring Buell back and they agree to check his rifle and ammo under his bed or was it in the closet?
When they rousted Molina they had a warrant.
Did Molina own a Mauser or was there another patsy whom they were hoping to pin the tail on the donkey, err rifle on the assassin.
So no warrant for the patsy's driver.
A guy whom did see a package as did his sister yet told or said nothing to anyone. Had a rifle as described by reports as matching the murder weapon. Went missing after work. Said he hears Lee Oswald named as a suspect so he hauls ass to his step fathers bedside... maybe he knew someone in/at Huntsville penitentiary that could help Wes out. Or a dying mans wish to save his 'son' would motivate a preacher man, I guess.
Is this cite correct Greg?
CORRIGENDUM
Cite 14
The correct (and complete) quote from Sneed's book is “Somebody in the room at that point asked him what was in the paper bag that he had the next morning when he rode to work with another employee. ‘Well, that was my lunch’. That’s what he told us. ‘Your lunch? Why did you carry a lunch in a big old bag like that’? ‘Well’, he said ‘you don’t always get a bag that just fits your lunch; you take what you can get.’ He was that quick, no mincing around, no trying to make up something. He was then asked, ‘Well, where did you carry it’? ‘I carried it in my lap.’ he said, ‘just like I always carry my lunch’ and the driver said, ‘Throw it over in the back seat’. That’s what he said about it! According to the man who drove him to work the next day he had a rather long brown paper wrapper which might have been a bag. The driver asked him, ‘What’s that?’ as Oswald threw it over the back seat. Oswald told him, ‘That’s some curtain rods.’ I’ve noticed in some of the literature that it was for his room, but he told Captain Fritz previously that it was curtain rods which he was bringing because he didn’t need them. As they were getting out of the car, he supposedly said that the curtain rods were for a fellow at work. In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.
Spot on and thats important.
Keep em' coming Ed.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper
Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:56 pm
Yep.Ed. Ledoux wrote:never the right questions asked like when Lee came to the door did he have anything in his hands..?
I also have trouble with Linnie reporting this as she did and then what?
She drove off?
To where?
She winds up back at home... with the preacher man?
Did she go to the preacher man?
Then back home.
The cops bring Buell back and they agree to check his rifle and ammo under his bed or was it in the closet?
When they rousted Molina they had a warrant.
Did Molina own a Mauser or was there another patsy whom they were hoping to pin the tail on the donkey, err rifle on the assassin.
So no warrant for the patsy's driver.
A guy whom did see a package as did his sister yet told or said nothing to anyone. Had a rifle as described by reports as matching the murder weapon. Went missing after work. Said he hears Lee Oswald named as a suspect so he hauls ass to his step fathers bedside... maybe he knew someone in/at Huntsville penitentiary that could help Wes out. Or a dying mans wish to save his 'son' would motivate a preacher man, I guess.
Is this cite correct Greg?
CORRIGENDUM
Cite 14
The correct (and complete) quote from Sneed's book is “Somebody in the room at that point asked him what was in the paper bag that he had the next morning when he rode to work with another employee. ‘Well, that was my lunch’. That’s what he told us. ‘Your lunch? Why did you carry a lunch in a big old bag like that’? ‘Well’, he said ‘you don’t always get a bag that just fits your lunch; you take what you can get.’ He was that quick, no mincing around, no trying to make up something. He was then asked, ‘Well, where did you carry it’? ‘I carried it in my lap.’ he said, ‘just like I always carry my lunch’ and the driver said, ‘Throw it over in the back seat’. That’s what he said about it! According to the man who drove him to work the next day he had a rather long brown paper wrapper which might have been a bag. The driver asked him, ‘What’s that?’ as Oswald threw it over the back seat. Oswald told him, ‘That’s some curtain rods.’ I’ve noticed in some of the literature that it was for his room, but he told Captain Fritz previously that it was curtain rods which he was bringing because he didn’t need them. As they were getting out of the car, he supposedly said that the curtain rods were for a fellow at work. In short, Homes was quoting Frazier - not Oswald - in reference to having brought curtain rods for a fellow worker.
_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise.
Lachie Hulme
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
Me
"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." Don Jeffries
"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott
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