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Linnie Bags a Whopper

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 11:43 am

See where I'm headed with this.

Lunch bag appears to have something inside it, Soda bottle does not.

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 12:37 pm

Mick, thanks for your thoughts. The notion that they wanted to hide the rifle may be off the track but we must remember that at the time the sack etc left the building Studebaker was in charge. Perhaps if they place the rifle on the paper when making it he thought it should be included as "evidence". Certainly the bag was not "discovered" on the 6th floor when Day was there. It makes no sense then to gather samples from the first floor wrapping area for a bag that was nonexistent at the time. There was no need for Studebaker to go down to the first floor with Day unless it was to assist with the wrapping of the rifle.

Here is the piece from No More Silence where Day talks of wrapping the rifle......

https://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Thu 09 Feb 2017, 7:21 pm

The Missing time

Rose, Stovall and Adamcik report (SVA) written on 24th (after Oswald's death?). Was not done individually. Adamcek did provide a separate statement.

All three were not on duty but arrive at police station around 2pm.
Claimed Oswald brought to homicide office at 2.15pm (actually 2pm). 
Fritz sims and Boyd arrive 2.30 (obviously it is sooner than this).
Instructed to go to Paines to search.
Drive to Paine's. (30 min?) this would make it a 3pm arrival.
Wait 30-40 min for Weatherford, Walters and Oxford to arrive. (Now at least 3.30pm)
Ruth greets them with "we were expecting you"

Michael arrived about 15 minutes later. (3.45pm?)

Ruth claimed she was expecting them when TSBD was announced. Michael says it was the mention of Oswald's name in connection with Tippet arrest at theatre. This was first mentioned at 2.43pm. Michael about 20 minute drive from work to house.
 
Mentions LMR arriving and talking of a package
Arrived back at city hall with Marina and the Paines just before 6 pm.

6.45 McCabe (Irving police) arrests Frazier at the hospital....Rose gets to Irving police station at 7pm.


Adamcik's Report

Arrived just after Oswald was brought in at 2pm. After a few minutes sent to Paine's.
Importantly only waited few minutes for deputies to arrive at Paines....not 40 minutes.
This puts their arrival at Irving around 2.30pm.
Adamcik was the one who talked to LMR - no mention of curtain rods...just him carrying a paper package or box.
Came back at 5.45pm to city hall.

Michael Paine version
Left work for the house after hearing Oswald's name mentioned (arrested at theatre) 2.43 ~25 minute trip.  Arrives just after 3pm.

Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive just after RSA......there is not a 30-40 minute wait for them.

The real timeline.....

Sometime between 1.30 and 2pm Frazier leaves TSBD for Irving. Arrives home before 2.30pm.
RSA told by Fritz to go to Irving a few minutes after 2pm (Oswald's arrival at homicide).
Arrive at Irving about 2.35pm.
Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive shortly after and they go to the house before 2.43pm....search the garage etc.
Michael Paine arrives just after 3pm.
Sometime between 3pm and 5.30pm LMR talks to Adamcik. Likely earlier than later, maybe 3.30-4pm (a guess).
Marina and Paine's leave for city all around 5.30 and arrive 6pm.
Frazier taken to Irving police station about 6.45pm

The questions are,
1. Why the deception of the 30-40 minute wait by Rose and Stovall?
2. How long was Frazier with LMR at Irving? Oswald's name announced just after he arrived home.
3. Did Frazier or Randle notice the cops waiting at the Paine's? They surely must have expected the cops to,be there soon as Ruth would tell them about Westley.
4. When did he go to the hospital? Did he leave for the hospital when LMR went to the Paine's?
5. The visit by LMR was after the removal of the paper sack from the TSBD.

The curtain rod story first appeared either some time late on the 22nd or 23rd. The brother/ sister/ stepfather had about 4 hours to develop a something to protect Westley. This may have been refined after the midnight polygraph.

Another thought....Frazier claimed he never saw Oswald take any packages of any kind prior to the 22nd. Either to or from work. What about his laundry that Marina did for him regularly when he visited? Did Westley not remember those packages?
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 12:04 am

Colin Crow wrote:Mick, thanks for your thoughts. The notion that they wanted to hide the rifle may be off the track but we must remember that at the time the sack etc left the building Studebaker was in charge. Perhaps if they place the rifle on the paper when making it he thought it should be included as "evidence". Certainly the bag was not "discovered" on the 6th floor when Day was there. It makes no sense then to gather samples from the first floor wrapping area for a bag that was nonexistent at the time. There was no need for Studebaker to go down to the first floor with Day unless it was to assist with the wrapping of the rifle.

Here is the piece from No More Silence where Day talks of wrapping the rifle......

https://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
I agree colin, it makes no sense to hide the rifle as police take it outside the building, just as muchas it makes no sense to make the wrapper / sack / bag to protect it.
And the qusetion for me remains, that at what point if the police made this sack did they carefully fold it up, very neatly only to unflod it again to cover the wooden strip.

The truth is we don't know what is really holding the sack up outside the building with Montgomery holding it aloft, unless I'm mistaken. 

As for Day and Studebaker going to the first, I'm not sure what you mean about "they had no need unless to assist with the wrapping of the rifle ". Was there a need really to go there to make a sack. What makes you so convinced about the making of this sack. 

I'll buy into anything and I don't discount much at all but the thought of two cops making up some sack to hide, the protect and then flip flop and use it to cover a wooden stick, but then again maybe enter it into evidence on the sixth or fifth or fourth for me is a strecth...not impossible and definitely not to be discounted but seems a stretch
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 12:10 am

Colin Crow wrote:The Missing time

Rose, Stovall and Adamcik report (SVA) written on 24th (after Oswald's death?). Was not done individually. Adamcek did provide a separate statement.

All three were not on duty but arrive at police station around 2pm.
Claimed Oswald brought to homicide office at 2.15pm (actually 2pm). 
Fritz sims and Boyd arrive 2.30 (obviously it is sooner than this).
Instructed to go to Paines to search.
Drive to Paine's. (30 min?) this would make it a 3pm arrival.
Wait 30-40 min for Weatherford, Walters and Oxford to arrive. (Now at least 3.30pm)
Ruth greets them with "we were expecting you"

Michael arrived about 15 minutes later. (3.45pm?)

Ruth claimed she was expecting them when TSBD was announced. Michael says it was the mention of Oswald's name in connection with Tippet arrest at theatre. This was first mentioned at 2.43pm. Michael about 20 minute drive from work to house.
 
Mentions LMR arriving and talking of a package
Arrived back at city hall with Marina and the Paines just before 6 pm.

6.45 McCabe (Irving police) arrests Frazier at the hospital....Rose gets to Irving police station at 7pm.


Adamcik's Report

Arrived just after Oswald was brought in at 2pm. After a few minutes sent to Paine's.
Importantly only waited few minutes for deputies to arrive at Paines....not 40 minutes.
This puts their arrival at Irving around 2.30pm.
Adamcik was the one who talked to LMR - no mention of curtain rods...just him carrying a paper package or box.
Came back at 5.45pm to city hall.

Michael Paine version
Left work for the house after hearing Oswald's name mentioned (arrested at theatre) 2.43 ~25 minute trip.  Arrives just after 3pm.

Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive just after RSA......there is not a 30-40 minute wait for them.

The real timeline.....

Sometime between 1.30 and 2pm Frazier leaves TSBD for Irving. Arrives home before 2.30pm.
RSA told by Fritz to go to Irving a few minutes after 2pm (Oswald's arrival at homicide).
Arrive at Irving about 2.35pm.
Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive shortly after and they go to the house before 2.43pm....search the garage etc.
Michael Paine arrives just after 3pm.
Sometime between 3pm and 5.30pm LMR talks to Adamcik. Likely earlier than later, maybe 3.30-4pm (a guess).
Marina and Paine's leave for city all around 5.30 and arrive 6pm.
Frazier taken to Irving police station about 6.45pm

The questions are,
1. Why the deception of the 30-40 minute wait by Rose and Stovall?
2. How long was Frazier with LMR at Irving? Oswald's name announced just after he arrived home.
3. Did Frazier or Randle notice the cops waiting at the Paine's? They surely must have expected the cops to,be there soon as Ruth would tell them about Westley.
4. When did he go to the hospital? Did he leave for the hospital when LMR went to the Paine's?
5. The visit by LMR was after the removal of the paper sack from the TSBD.

The curtain rod story first appeared either some time late on the 22nd or 23rd. The brother/ sister/ stepfather had about 4 hours to develop a something to protect Westley. This may have been refined after the midnight polygraph.

Another thought....Frazier claimed he never saw Oswald take any packages of any kind prior to the 22nd. Either to or from work. What about his laundry that Marina did for him regularly when he visited? Did Westley not remember those packages?
Adamcik was the one who talked to LMR - no mention of curtain rods...just him carrying a paper package or box.




But most importantly she said if we are to believe the report that the package or box was suspicious.

If this is true and accurate, then IMO ( if we believe no sack) we all must agree here that she had no right to make that asercion. not at this time before she could have possibly known of a rifle sack being discovered in at the TSBD


Thats key to my mind. Remember too, if the report is accurate then Linnie Mae had a crystal Ball. Wild guess, tin ass luck - go figure
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 12:24 am

There is no evidence that Day was aware of the 6th floor bag's (CE142) existence before he left the building. His testimony before the Commission is a deception. He claimed he left it with Studebaker and Hicks. Hicks did not arrive until after the bag left the building. 

The point is if Day decided to go back to the crime lab around 2pm, why did Studebaker go down to the 1st floor with him? Why did they take the rifle to the wrapping table and obtain samples before CE142 was even found? Day talks of having nothing to wrap the rifle with in No More Silence.....and the issues of rubbing prints. Effectively giving us the sequence that happened. Going to make a wrapper....then deciding against.

We know the wooden strip was removed and entered as evidence along with the bag, chicken lunch, pop bottle etc by Montgomery and Johnson....it is the obvious candidate for propping up the bag.

When it was sent to the FBI it contained no prints because it was made by Day and Studebaker.....imagine their reaction when the FBI announces Oswald's prints were found on it. It becomes the key link associating Oswald to the rifle that day.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 12:45 am

Mick Purdy wrote:
Colin Crow wrote:The Missing time

Rose, Stovall and Adamcik report (SVA) written on 24th (after Oswald's death?). Was not done individually. Adamcek did provide a separate statement.

All three were not on duty but arrive at police station around 2pm.
Claimed Oswald brought to homicide office at 2.15pm (actually 2pm). 
Fritz sims and Boyd arrive 2.30 (obviously it is sooner than this).
Instructed to go to Paines to search.
Drive to Paine's. (30 min?) this would make it a 3pm arrival.
Wait 30-40 min for Weatherford, Walters and Oxford to arrive. (Now at least 3.30pm)
Ruth greets them with "we were expecting you"

Michael arrived about 15 minutes later. (3.45pm?)

Ruth claimed she was expecting them when TSBD was announced. Michael says it was the mention of Oswald's name in connection with Tippet arrest at theatre. This was first mentioned at 2.43pm. Michael about 20 minute drive from work to house.
 
Mentions LMR arriving and talking of a package
Arrived back at city hall with Marina and the Paines just before 6 pm.

6.45 McCabe (Irving police) arrests Frazier at the hospital....Rose gets to Irving police station at 7pm.


Adamcik's Report

Arrived just after Oswald was brought in at 2pm. After a few minutes sent to Paine's.
Importantly only waited few minutes for deputies to arrive at Paines....not 40 minutes.
This puts their arrival at Irving around 2.30pm.
Adamcik was the one who talked to LMR - no mention of curtain rods...just him carrying a paper package or box.
Came back at 5.45pm to city hall.

Michael Paine version
Left work for the house after hearing Oswald's name mentioned (arrested at theatre) 2.43 ~25 minute trip.  Arrives just after 3pm.

Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive just after RSA......there is not a 30-40 minute wait for them.

The real timeline.....

Sometime between 1.30 and 2pm Frazier leaves TSBD for Irving. Arrives home before 2.30pm.
RSA told by Fritz to go to Irving a few minutes after 2pm (Oswald's arrival at homicide).
Arrive at Irving about 2.35pm.
Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive shortly after and they go to the house before 2.43pm....search the garage etc.
Michael Paine arrives just after 3pm.
Sometime between 3pm and 5.30pm LMR talks to Adamcik. Likely earlier than later, maybe 3.30-4pm (a guess).
Marina and Paine's leave for city all around 5.30 and arrive 6pm.
Frazier taken to Irving police station about 6.45pm

The questions are,
1. Why the deception of the 30-40 minute wait by Rose and Stovall?
2. How long was Frazier with LMR at Irving? Oswald's name announced just after he arrived home.
3. Did Frazier or Randle notice the cops waiting at the Paine's? They surely must have expected the cops to,be there soon as Ruth would tell them about Westley.
4. When did he go to the hospital? Did he leave for the hospital when LMR went to the Paine's?
5. The visit by LMR was after the removal of the paper sack from the TSBD.

The curtain rod story first appeared either some time late on the 22nd or 23rd. The brother/ sister/ stepfather had about 4 hours to develop a something to protect Westley. This may have been refined after the midnight polygraph.

Another thought....Frazier claimed he never saw Oswald take any packages of any kind prior to the 22nd. Either to or from work. What about his laundry that Marina did for him regularly when he visited? Did Westley not remember those packages?
Adamcik was the one who talked to LMR - no mention of curtain rods...just him carrying a paper package or box.




But most importantly she said if we are to believe the report that the package or box was suspicious.

If this is true and accurate, then IMO ( if we believe no sack) we all must agree here that she had no right to make that asercion. not at this time before she could have possibly known of a rifle sack being discovered in at the TSBD


Thats key to my mind. Remember too, if the report is accurate then Linnie Mae had a crystal Ball. Wild guess, tin ass luck - go figure
The RSA report was written on the 24th (by Rose and Stovall). Adamcik's separate Report mentions nothing of the LMR discussion. They had a bag made to contain the assembled rifle on the 22nd in evidence thanks to the DPD with Oswald's prints by the 23rd thanks to the FBI. The main problem was it needed a flap.....hence the rifle had to be disassembled.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 10:22 am

The point is if Day decided to go back to the crime lab around 2pm, why did Studebaker go down to the 1st floor with him? Why did they take the rifle to the wrapping table and obtain samples before CE142 was even found? Day talks of having nothing to wrap the rifle with in No More Silence.....and the issues of rubbing prints. Effectively giving us the sequence that happened. Going to make a wrapper....then deciding against.


How do we kow that CE142 had not been discovered but not reported.


As I said before Colin, not sure I'm on board with Day telling us his version of the wrapper sequence for the book No More Silence, call me a cynic.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 10:27 am

The questions are,
1. Why the deception of the 30-40 minute wait by Rose and Stovall?
2. How long was Frazier with LMR at Irving? Oswald's name announced just after he arrived home.
3. Did Frazier or Randle notice the cops waiting at the Paine's? They surely must have expected the cops to,be there soon as Ruth would tell them about Westley.
4. When did he go to the hospital? Did he leave for the hospital when LMR went to the Paine's?


All good points to my mind




5. The visit by LMR was after the removal of the paper sack from the TSBD.


Yes we can assume that, but only if we believe the reports - there is conflict between them on this issue.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 10:42 am

The real timeline.....





Sometime between 1.30 and 2pm Frazier leaves TSBD for Irving. Arrives home before 2.30pm.


We have conflicting statements regarding this . We don't really know where Wesley went. He is unaccounted until approximately 6.45pm and even then there are four conflicting reports on that time line


RSA told by Fritz to go to Irving a few minutes after 2pm (Oswald's arrival at homicide).


Agreed


Arrive at Irving about 2.35pm.


Probably, could have been either slightly earlier or slightly later


Walthers, Weatherford and Oxford arrive shortly after and they go to the house before 2.43pm....search the garage etc.


Agreed


Michael Paine arrives just after 3pm.


Not sure about this, I have 3.45pm as the timeline for his visit. Need to check


Sometime between 3pm and 5.30pm LMR talks to Adamcik. Likely earlier than later, maybe 3.30-4pm (a guess).




Mine's aguess too, but I'll go with sometime around 3-3.30pm






Marina and Paine's leave for city all around 5.30 and arrive 6pm.


Agreed


Frazier taken to Irving police station about 6.45pm




We dont know this for certain, there are four conflicting reports which tell a different version of his timeline for this.
At a guess I'd say the time for his arrest is close to the time of 6.45pm


At the top you've referred to this as the 'real' (empasis mine) timeline.




Not sure we can slate that at least not yet. 
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 10:50 am

There is no evidence that Day was aware of the 6th floor bag's (CE142) existence before he left the building. His testimony before the Commission is a deception. He claimed he left it with Studebaker and Hicks. Hicks did not arrive until after the bag left the building. 


This cuts both ways for me, there is no evidence he was unaware of a sack's existence. 


And I would still point to the sack held aloft outside the TSBD timestamped at 3.00pm. It is held by stick or rod which as far as I can tell is unidentifiable.


IN my opinion that sack is held aloft in exactly the same position as if it were being treated as evidence.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 10:55 am

Another thought....Frazier claimed he never saw Oswald take any packages of any kind prior to the 22nd. Either to or from work. What about his laundry that Marina did for him regularly when he visited? Did Westley not remember those packages?


Frazier lies continually. IMO he transported the curtain rod sack story from another occasion which really did take place.


And remember this too, We can be pretty sure Frazier drove Oswald to work every day, there is enough there in the various statements from TSBD workers to suggest that.


But the Irving gang weren't having any of that.....they lied
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 10:58 am

One concern is that I'm sure those cops were experienced in removing guns from crime scenes so I'm sure there would e some sort of standard involved - and ergo, no need to flip flop on whether to carry it out in a bag.

Both sides of the debate have issues not supported by the evidence as it stands.


Oswald should have bought one of these babies 

C
arrying a rifle discreetly is as simple as blending in. A variety of manufacturers offer discreet carry bags that look like ordinary backpacks or gym bags yet hold a long gun.
http://www.tactical-life.com/gear/6-discreet-carry-bags/#twfm16-bags-511



Some bits and pieces from google groups:

Bill: 60# kraft paper is not hard to come by......I have a roll....cost about $1.69 or some such low price.......depending on the yardage. The odd point is the width of the paper roll that was the "source" of the paper presented as being used. Most rolls are 24" wide.....the paper bag is made from a  "16"  piece.....which means the paper had to be specifically cut to form a 8" "bag".
-------------
Hi Martha: The construction of the bag is very "odd" to say the least. The sheet of paper before folding has a "unknown" pre assembly length. It is listed as being 8" wide folded, which means that it was approximately 16" wide unfolded....actually cut open. A 24" sheet of paper folded would make a "trifold" 8" bag but this bag only has a "bifold".....meaning it was cut to 16" folded over and taped together.

The difficult part to understand is the folding of the "bottom" of the bag. The problem is that we don't know exactly how much paper was "folded over". My estimate is 4.5 to 5".......BUT does that subtract from the overall length of 38" stated as the length of the bag...or is it additional paper? If it was "additional" paper whoever made the bag.....could have NOT FOLDED the bottom edge......but just TAPED IT SHUT making the overall length of the bag 42.5 to 43 inches in length which would have concealed the assembled rifle.

If the bottom of the bifolded 38" paper was folded over to create the bag... it's length would be reduced by the amount of folded over paper. That would make the bag roughly 33" in overall length.....(estimated 5" fold) or "34"........(estimated 4" fold) which will not allow for the CE 139 stock to be concealed in the bag.

The other problem is the bag's "seam" it is "off center" and requires a
great deal of effort to fold over the sheet of paper to end up with such a
seam. Three primary folds have to be made to the bag along it's length
the "center" to obtain the 8" width then each edge has to be folded over
to "met". The simple method would be to fold the paper in half take each
side and fold it over to the center and tape down the two edges down the
center of the bag.....but this bag has a offset strip of tape holding the
edges together. Either way there has to be some "overlap" of the paper
where the two edges meet........or the glue from the tape can stick to the
other side of the paper.......so if there is some "overlap" the volume of
the bag being created is reduced.

We need to actually examine the "bag"......but we can't.

--------------------------
A folded bag makes no sense unless you wanted to take it home - and neither Frazier nor Dougherty would need to do that. Oswald as sniper would. The only exception would be if Frazier or Dougherty had the rifle and needed the bag to bring it in. 

And then you get into the whole can of worms about where the rifle came from, who had it, and if not in the bag, how it got inside.

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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 11:03 am

One more from that google group discussion:

Post by Martha
IF the bag was made at the work bench TSBD - a pair of scissors would be a necessity, I would think. According to West - he was never far from his work station and not for any length of time. He never saw Oswald around his work table. (6 H 356-363)

Reply to above:
You can fold paper......insert a flat object such as a "ruler" and cut the paper along the "fold" if done properly to obtain a "straight"
tear......fold over typing paper insert a ruler and slide it up......you
will have a straight edge cut without scissors.
----------------
So maybe it was a ruler holding the bag up? Although I do think think the sill strip makes sense.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 11:23 am

Ed summed it up nicely when he said:

Was it found unfolded?

Why not refold it?

See where Im going here?

Cheers, Ed



We can dismiss this but it needs to be addressed.


The bag that we see in the pic with Montgomery has been folded.
Who folded that bag. The cops. Why?


If one was to conceal that bag looks to me like those folds are spot on for tucking that sack in under your jacket or shirt. Just a thought.


So why did the cops fold it if it was meant for concealing the rifle or protecting it.


Did they make the sack fold it up and then unfold it again. 


And until we can identify what exactly is holding that sack up in Montgomery's hand then we can't assume that it's the wooden strip.
It well could be but my opinion is we can't make that assumption.


I will go to my grave believing that bag is being held and treated as evidence in the Murder Of JFK.


I base that on my experience with covering murder and events such as these many years ago. 


I agree it would make sense if that is the wooden strip holding that sack up, but I'd be cautious about that claim because we do not know it is in fact the strip, it could be anything.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 11:25 am

Carrying a rifle discreetly is as simple as blending in. A variety of manufacturers offer discreet carry bags that look like ordinary backpacks or gym bags yet hold a long gun.


http://www.tactical-life.com/gear/6-discreet-carry-bags/#twfm16-bags-511


Too funny Greg.  


I like the long black bag myself...
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 11:44 am

Greg:


A folded bag makes no sense unless you wanted to take it home - and neither Frazier nor Dougherty would need to do that. Oswald as sniper would. The only exception would be if Frazier or Dougherty had the rifle and needed the bag to bring it in. 


This is imo a very, very important point.
Why was that sack folded? - Why. 
Cops? Possibly.


or


Frazier, Dougherty, Piper, or West?


How did that MC rifle get onto the sixth?
Dougherty is all but the only person who had that opportunity. 


Thats a fact. Unless of course a stranger was present.


Dougherty opened that warehouse up each and every morning prior to the others arriving.
Are we buying the retard story from Truly?


Think about this, No body would have placed the rifle on the sixth with the chance of its discovery any length of time before the President had passed the building. Not if the intention was to frame someone for the murder.


Unless someone can point to somebody else JD as near as I can tell is the only candidate for the throwdown MC rifle. Why not the bag. The framers would've known that the rifle would had to have been hidden in its conveyance into the TSBD. A sack?


If I'm right about the sack being held as evidence, then that too had to be placed there by someone to be discovered. JD?


To my mind the folds which are evident on the sack which Montgomery held are consistent with a sack which had been folded and concealed at some point. That to me makes sense. Its only my opinion but it seems logical to me.


And I'll beat that drum one last time, Linnie Mae approached Adamcik at about 3.30pm (timeline estimate only) and divulged her suspicions regarding Lee Oswald and a long sack or case.


This is extremely important imo, it is after the sack was discovered, but way before it was made public.


If Randle's story about the sack and Oswald that Friday morning is a load of BS, ( I believe it is) then this approach to Adamcik takes on a whole different
meaning. imho.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 1:43 pm

A few points Mick,

Maybe Studebaker (the sorcerer's apprentice) though he needed to take it with him back to the 6th after Day left as it had (briefly) been in contact with the rifle. He may have thought it could be considered as evidence because of that or maybe they wanted to protect the wooden strip. In his travel upstairs he folds the sack to make it easier to transport.

I think Adamcik mentioned they were packing the evidence in the car when LMR approached. This might indicate that it was well after 4 before she did.

As for Michael Paine, he stated as soon as heard of Oswald's arrest he headed over. Also the cops were pretty consistent that he arrived about 15 minutes after them. Just after 3pm seems like a good bet.

Note that Marina and Ruth did not hear mention of Oswald on the TV before the cops came. First mentioned at 2.43. Just after the time the cops arrived, no wonder they didn't hear it.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 3:03 pm

How about we start with this. According to West, there was next to zero chance Oswald could have made the sack. So who could have?

The cops - the cops did in fact make a "replica" at some stage. Why not the "original"?

Dougherty - in before everyone else and has no lunchtime alibi.

Piper - Out after everyone else and has a very dodgy alibi.

Jack Cason - could have had access any hour of the day, but that's all you can say.

Roy Truly - could have as above, but more likely to use lackeys.

Occhus Campbell - could have as above, but that's all you can say.

The after hours cleaners - not enough known about them, but theoretically possible.
--------------------------------
Personally,  I think it does come down to the cops or Dougherty. Points for and against for both. Maybe leaning slightly to Dougherty (on behalf of Truly), but that might change in an hour!

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 3:40 pm

Dougherty - in before everyone else and has no lunchtime alibi.


This stands out like dogs testicles to me.


anyone buyin' that retard story here.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 3:46 pm

Maybe Studebaker (the sorcerer's apprentice) though he needed to take it with him back to the 6th after Day left as it had (briefly) been in contact with the rifle. He may have thought it could be considered as evidence because of that or maybe they wanted to protect the wooden strip. In his travel upstairs he folds the sack to make it easier to transport.

You buying this story Colin. I know i"m not. 




I think Adamcik mentioned they were packing the evidence in the car when LMR approached. This might indicate that it was well after 4 before she did.


Possible, but I'd need to see that statement you're referring to 



As for Michael Paine, he stated as soon as heard of Oswald's arrest he headed over. Also the cops were pretty consistent that he arrived about 15 minutes after them. Just after 3pm seems like a good bet.


Again I have 3.45pm as the timeline for his arrival, so not sure what report you refer to


Note that Marina and Ruth did not hear mention of Oswald on the TV before the cops came. First mentioned at 2.43. Just after the time the cops arrived, no wonder they didn't hear it.




This is true and it makes me wonder. She knows full well shots have been fired from the TSBD and that the President is dead.....what to make of the report and her expecting them then Hey.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 4:41 pm

The comment about LMR arriving about the time they were packing into the car was in the RSA report of the 24th. They claimed Michael arrived at 3.45 but that includes the 30-40 minute error. 

Given the dimensions of the bag I believe it was made for the assembled rifle with an open end. It was a 3 layer fold, 8 8 and 6 inches. The official story that Oswald made it too short is nonsensical. If he did do that he could have easily used a seabag to transport it, throw a few clothes in and claim it was laundry from Marina.

Show me one piece of testimony that indicates Day was aware of the bag before he left the depository. He made the story up. Claimed he left it with Hicks who didn't arrive until after the bag had left. The apprentice was in charge of the crime scene for an hour or more. The whole finding the bag story is a mess. It was not there until after Studebaker printed the boxes, chicken lunch and pop bottle. It was found folded by Montgomery between boxes north of the SN.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 5:24 pm

The whole finding the bag story is a mess.


To be sure!


 It was found folded by Montgomery between boxes north of the SN.





Dropped by Studebaker?
 




It was found folded by Montgomery between boxes north of the SN.







Montgomery unfolded the sack?
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 5:28 pm

Show me one piece of testimony that indicates Day was aware of the bag before he left the depository. 


He made the story up. 


That would not be up to me Colin, the onus is on you to show how or why he made that story up.






Day talks of having nothing to wrap the rifle with in No More Silence.....and the issues of rubbing prints. Effectively giving us the sequence that happened. Going to make a wrapper....then deciding against.



You want to trust this guy. Really.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 10 Feb 2017, 5:49 pm

The comment about LMR arriving about the time they were packing into the car was in the RSA report of the 24th. They claimed Michael arrived at 3.45 but that includes the 30-40 minute error. 





G. F. ROSE - R. S. STOVALL - J. P. ADAMCIK 
REPORT ON INVESTIGATION OF THE PRESIDENT'S MURDER
On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited us



Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.



Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's



Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.
G.F. Rose
R.S. Stovall
J.P. Adamcik
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

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