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Linnie Bags a Whopper

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:43 pm

greg parker wrote:Mick,

an early arrival at the Paines may also account for how the cops got to boarding house so quick.

On Linnie... how far again was it between the Pain and Randle houses? Would she really drive that short distance, or did she arrive from somewhere else?
Driven from somewhere else. There is no way she drove from her house. She had a car or at least Bills on loan for the day. (he had other business elsewhere)

No she had come from a place other than the family home. 

Ed's timeline makes a lot of sense - at least to me, it seems to make the jigsaw pieces fit a little more seamlessly.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 3:49 pm

She also stated on the day of the assassination that the bag was "approximately 3 feet by 6 inches" (Commission Document 5, p. 320).

and:


Detective Stovall testified that she told him "that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle is what she said" (7H191 emphasis added).
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 7:32 pm

Maybe she dropped her brother at the hospital after he came home. I don't think there is enough time to get her to the Paine's by 2.30. Oswald was first mentioned by the media at 2.43. It is possible she arrived before 3.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 7:58 pm

Colin Crow wrote:Maybe she dropped her brother at the hospital after he came home. I don't think there is enough time to get her to the Paine's by 2.30. Oswald was first mentioned by the media at 2.43. It is possible she arrived before 3.
The importance of that depends on who mentions Oswald first - her or Adamcik. She could claim any reason at all for pulling up at the Paine's initially.

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 9:51 pm

Agree Greg. Those reports/statements were likely not written until late on the 22nd at the earliest. I believe the curtain rod story was concocted after the assassination by brother and sister (and maybe step-father).
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 10:47 pm

Edit:


In my opinion, Randle drops the dime on Oswald after she hears the news of Oswalds arrest on the radio around 2.40pm, (edit) - or more likely after she's heard on the news that the shots have come from the TSBD which would've been prior to 2.40pm

Keep in mind she had absolutely no reason to go to the police out of any suspicion of a sack. There was no sack. It is my belief she did not see Oswald that morning. I don't believe Frazier saw Oswald either.

No, this was much more than sisterly love imo


Last edited by Mick Purdy on Sat 25 Feb 2017, 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Fri 24 Feb 2017, 11:46 pm

Mick Purdy wrote:In my opinion, Randle drops the dime on Oswald after she hears the news of Oswalds arrest on the radio around 2.40pm.

Keep in mind she had absolutely no reason to go to the police out of any suspicion of a sack. There was no sack. It is my belief she did not see Oswald that morning. I don't believe Frazier saw Oswald either.

No, this was much more than sisterly love imo
That's what it really comes down to: if there was no bag, then Linnie and Buell are implicated in setting Oswald up.

I believe there is anything that could not be predicted in the background: politics and religion. 

Brother in Marvin was Mayor of Irving, then in a second run at the office in 2005, he was defeated via a campaign labeling him a former segregationist. 

Marvin in Nov 2016: 



The family were Dixiecrats and Baptists.

The Randles attended the First Baptist Church in Irving. The First Baptist Church pops up repeatedly in online discussions and websites as Christian Zionist in nature. They are basically rooting for WWIII which they believe will be when Jesus returns...

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Sat 25 Feb 2017, 9:09 am

Read the bottom two paragraphs about AW Criswell of the First Baptist Church in Dallas... the Big Brother of the Irving branch...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3886&relPageId=18&search=criswell

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“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 25 Feb 2017, 10:04 am

Thanks Greg,

I've made the comment before now, but I really believe that the Randle household was not as it seemed.

I have no problem identifying Randle, Frazier and possibly others from the family as likely being involved in framing Oswald.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 25 Feb 2017, 11:27 am

Thanks Greg for bring our attention to the First Baptist Church and Criswell.
This is important.

I ask people not to be fooled by the suburban warm fuzzy feel the Randles emitted publically.
That includes Bill and Linnie Mae

The Randle's imo are a family who should be looked at very closely when evaluating their possible involvement in helping to Frame Oswald.

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 25 Feb 2017, 2:29 pm

greg parker wrote:Read the bottom two paragraphs about AW Criswell of the First Baptist Church in Dallas... the Big Brother of the Irving branch...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3886&relPageId=18&search=criswell

Hunt was baldly pro-business and anti-regulation. He despised communism, the United Nations and John F. Kennedy.
As Kennedy, a Roman Catholic, was pursing the Democratic presidential nomination in 1960, Hunt secretly financed the printing of 200,000 copies of an anti-Catholic sermon by the Rev. W.A. Criswell, the influential pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas. Criswell argued that if a Catholic became president, the pope would dictate American policy.
 
http://ece.dallasnews.com/news/jfk50/reflect/20131012-extremists-in-dallas-created-volatile-atmosphere-before-jfks-1963-visit.ece
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 26 Feb 2017, 10:13 am

From Greg Parker:



We know very little about William Randle... but let's put together what little we have.
 
He was born in Dallas to a British couple.
 
He was a deacon in the First Baptist Church from 1955 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=131275226)
 
He worked for his brother Marvin's company "Irving Table Top"
 
Marvin was involved in Dixicrat politics and had a stint as mayor of Irving in the 1970s. A second tilt at that office was derailed by a concerted campaign accusing him of racism and fraud when last in public office
 
On the day of the assassination, William randle and fellow employee, Berry Caster, drove to Austin and booked into their hotel room at 700pm.
 
Mrs John O Thompson who managed the hotel with her husband, phoned the Austin FBI office on November 23 due to things William randle had said to them, including that (1) his wife worked at the same building as Oswald (causing Linnie's name to be added to Revill's list temporarily); that (2) he was acquainted with Oswald and; (3) that there had been rumors circulating in Dallas that Kennedy would be shot"on account of the Veteran's Administration Offices being moved out of Dallas".
 
Looking at those things individually:
 
I believe number one was simply Mrs Thompson misremembering what she had been told. What William no doubt told her was that his wife's BROTHER worked at the same building... not that his wife did...
 
Number two imo, is unlikely to have been the result of any similar misunderstanding.
 
It is very hard to imagine how number three could not have been any sort of misunderstanding. The fact is that such rumors did circulate. The DPD had specific intelligence about it. I know this because back when I first started on this case and had more time, I immersed myself in the evidence as much as I could - and that included opening and reading every single DPD file here. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html After reading what Randle had allegedly said, I returned to the DPD files to locate the releveant document --- only to find that the whole friggin folder has gone walkabout and is currently MIA.
When you go to it - it ain't there. Folder 2 has disappeared! http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box8.htm
 
Aug, 1963.
Dallas: The Dallas Real Estate board said it was “unalterably opposed” to the proposed move of the Veterans Administration regional office to Waco. The VA said it was moving the office because its Dallas landlord would not guarantee to abide by all federal anti-discrimination regulations.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/jfk50/this-week-1963/20130810-aug.-11-17-bootleggers-get-boot-from-feds-in-east-texas.ece
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 26 Feb 2017, 10:21 am

W. A. Criswell.

http://jsr.fsu.edu/Volume10/Freeman.pdf

First Baptist Church.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 26 Feb 2017, 10:30 am

https://www.wacriswell.com/sermons/1965/america-and-russian-communism/


That has been typical of the entire left-wing, socialist, communist world that I have seen throughout Europe.  As the ambassador to Moscow for the United States said, "However the communists may differ, they all agree on this one thing: an implacable hatred for America and the American way of life."  I read for two weeks the English language newspapers and magazines of the Soviet.  They never deviate.  There is never a kind word about our country or our people.  There is never a syllable of appreciation for what we are seeking to do for an oppressed world.  But every line, and every sentence, and every syllable, and every word is one of blasphemous accusation and denunciation.







 Bill Randle was a Deacon of the First Baptist church from 1955 : 
 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=131275226
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 04 Mar 2017, 10:42 am

A list of neighbors interviewed as to whether they saw Oswald walking to the Randle residence that morning: Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.  Autry Lewis the only person who (decades later) claims to have seen him and who was not interviewed at the time. 




Linnie Mae as near as I can see is the only person confirmed by the authorities to have seen Lee walking to their house with a large package or sack the morning of the assassination. 


The only one! 


The fact that the neighbours were interviewed for the record is proof that the authorities tried to consolidate that story but failed to do so.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 04 Mar 2017, 11:12 am

Through William Randle’s connections with the First Baptist church in Irving as a deacon, it would have meant according to various reports from around that time the Irving household beliefs would have most likely have been pro segregation and more importantly anti-communist


One can imagine how easy it might have been to influence people with those beliefs. It's not a stretch to think it is possible for those same people to have been seduced into a plan to help frame a man who had been portrayed as a Russian defector and a communist.

The fact that both Ruth Paine and Linnie Mae Randle understated their relationship considerably through various reports and testimony is highly suspicious in my view.

They have both contradicted themselves on the matter of their friendship more than once.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by steely dan on Sat 04 Mar 2017, 11:45 am

Mick Purdy wrote:A list of neighbors interviewed as to whether they saw Oswald walking to the Randle residence that morning: Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.  Autry Lewis the only person who (decades later) claims to have seen him and who was not interviewed at the time. 




Linnie Mae as near as I can see is the only person confirmed by the authorities to have seen Lee walking to their house with a large package or sack the morning of the assassination. 


The only one! 


The fact that the neighbours were interviewed for the record is proof that the authorities tried to consolidate that story but failed to do so.

Linnie needed to be able to see through the car port wall and the car itself. Wes helped out by parking the car 180 degrees to the way he normally parked it so the car door with the dodgy lock was facing his sister.....and the car port wall.

Nothing to see here, Mick. Wink
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 04 Mar 2017, 12:25 pm

steely dan wrote:
Mick Purdy wrote:A list of neighbors interviewed as to whether they saw Oswald walking to the Randle residence that morning: Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.  Autry Lewis the only person who (decades later) claims to have seen him and who was not interviewed at the time. 




Linnie Mae as near as I can see is the only person confirmed by the authorities to have seen Lee walking to their house with a large package or sack the morning of the assassination. 


The only one! 


The fact that the neighbours were interviewed for the record is proof that the authorities tried to consolidate that story but failed to do so.

Linnie needed to be able to see through the car port wall and the car itself. Wes helped out by parking the car 180 degrees to the way he normally parked it so the car door with the dodgy lock was facing his sister.....and the car port wall.

Nothing to see here, Mick. Wink
Nothing whatsoever Steely,  Shocked Laughing


and whats more the fact that the authorities officially searched for corroboration to Randle's story is confirmation at least to my tiny brain that the long rifle sack carrying commie story originated not from coersion from the authorities but from Randle herself. The fact they have on record those interviews with the various neighbours and what they didn't see that morning in my opinion is all the proof we need to know exactly where the story comes from.

We have at least three various reports and other testimony supporting Randle divulging the Long suspicious sack with Lee story early Friday afternoon, along with the above.

It all adds up to a frame in my calculations. And not to protect anybody for what it's worth IMO
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Jake Sykes on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 2:06 am

Mick, do I have your research and thoughts correctly understood if I say that apparently Linnie May concocted the bag story to the DPD in Irving, the DPD got wind of that fact back at the TSBD, and that is why a bag, one way or the other, was coughed up out of the TSBD after the fact?

As I mull over the above (assuming I have it right) it occurs to me it helps explain something puzzling about Wes, which is that he has always maintained there was a bag, that it had length, but was short enough to fit under Lee's arm and was not a gun.

It is as though he wants Lee to have a package something like Linnie May describes, but then again, he doesn't want him to have that package. 

Wes protecting his sister against a false story that she told could explain this. He could not call his sister a liar and at the same time he had no desire to unnecessarily implicate himself or Oswald either, especially since he has said he does not believe Oswald did it in his more recent statements, as I recall.

Maybe you've touched on this before, but your theory strikes me in this way as an explanation for what is a conflicted story that he tells about that infamous package.

This might also explain why Wes has softened on the package story in recent years. Maybe the imperative of protecting Linnie May in this way has faded, but not gone away completely. Can't read his mind of course.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Jake Sykes on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 3:01 am

Obsessing on it now, I ask myself how did the initial DPD interview with Linnie go? 
(hypothetical) 
Linnie: He was carrying a sack. (actually the lunch sack with a cheese sandwich and an apple)
DPD: Did it look like a gun? (leading the witness, applying pressure. If she says no, it will look like a cover-up)
Linnie: Well, it could have, I don't know.
DPD: How big was it etc?
Linnie may feel she must provide information that will 'satisfy' the cops and at least leave open the possibility that it was a gun.
When did Wes first speak of a sack? After the interview and after he had a chance to talk to Linnie May? I'm sure it's been covered already. Sorry that I'm lame on this. Just throwing out thoughts.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 11:17 am

Jake Sykes wrote:Mick, do I have your research and thoughts correctly understood if I say that apparently Linnie May concocted the bag story to the DPD in Irving, the DPD got wind of that fact back at the TSBD, and that is why a bag, one way or the other, was coughed up out of the TSBD after the fact?

As I mull over the above (assuming I have it right) it occurs to me it helps explain something puzzling about Wes, which is that he has always maintained there was a bag, that it had length, but was short enough to fit under Lee's arm and was not a gun.

It is as though he wants Lee to have a package something like Linnie May describes, but then again, he doesn't want him to have that package. 

Wes protecting his sister against a false story that she told could explain this. He could not call his sister a liar and at the same time he had no desire to unnecessarily implicate himself or Oswald either, especially since he has said he does not believe Oswald did it in his more recent statements, as I recall.

Maybe you've touched on this before, but your theory strikes me in this way as an explanation for what is a conflicted story that he tells about that infamous package.

This might also explain why Wes has softened on the package story in recent years. Maybe the imperative of protecting Linnie May in this way has faded, but not gone away completely. Can't read his mind of course.






Mick, do I have your research and thoughts correctly understood if I say that apparently Linnie May concocted the bag story to the DPD in Irving, the DPD got wind of that fact back at the TSBD, and that is why a bag, one way or the other, was coughed up out of the TSBD after the fact?




You are on the same page for sure.


I know Colin has done a lot of research about the TSBD and the sack and he has his own thoughts on this which differ to mine. So I mean no disrespect when I post my theory here.


Having said that, the timeline for my theory is key. Thanks to some recent work posted by Ed, I think I have a fit for my scenario.


I do subscribe to the theory that Randle (Linnie) was a key player with ties to Ruth Paine in the framing of Lee.
In my view we can believe that she did approach Adamcik  in Irving a lot earlier than first thought about the suspicious sack, her brother and Lee.


I firmly believe that a sack was planted by persons unknown in at the TSBD, (the same sack we see Montgomery holding aloft outside the building at 3.00pm)
Again, I'm not buying into the coercion of Randle by the DPD to manufacture the sack story. I don't buy that!


Too many reports and testimony support the fact that she did approach them (DPD) in Irving with the sack story. This coupled with the DPD's search of witnesses (neighbours) to corroborate Randles statements about the sack that had been allegedly transported by Lee to the Randle's that Friday morning is IMO proof in itself of the story having originated from Randle herself and not from any coercion from the DPD. Why interview the neighbours if the DPD concocted the story and forced Randle to go along. Why? 


They did interview the neighbours and they got zero result....      so why? A futile pointless exercise if the story orginated from the cops


I believe they were genuinely trying to corroborate the Randle story of Lee and the sack on Friday morning.


If I'm right then Randle is up there with Ruth Paine as far as dumping on an innocent man.


You raise a very good point Jake, regarding Wes. You already know my thoughts about that morning and the drive into work....the parking lot nonsense imo is a lie, and I think I've gone a long way to make the case for that in the Rider thread.


If as I suspect, Wes was on his own in the parking lot that Friday morning then he's go some explaining to do and if I'm right about Randle then the sum total of my thoughts can only lead to one conclusion.


You've definitely got me thinking, Randle could be much more involved in this than I originally thought. And it would explain Fraziers at times bizzare behaviour regarding the assassination. Greg has written before, that Wes was viewed by his sister as a dopey hick from Huntsville. I wonder now if that might be spot on. Maybe Randle was calling the shots and Wes was just along for the ride.


Randle and Paine both underplayed, understated and contradicted themselves regarding their relationship. It's in the record, in their statements and testimony.
I wonder why that might be.

And one last thing, we see in the photos of the sack that it had been folded, neatly folded into a size which could easily allow the sack to be hidden under clothing.
Why had that sack been folded for what purpose?

Thanks to Ed, I now have a theory which is plausible, possible and persuasive.

In my world, Wes did not drive Oswald to work as claimed. (Bill Randle did). Frazier was on his own in the parking lot, as witnessed by Shields and Givens.
Oswald was in the DR (TSBD) @ 7.45am as per Shanklins report.
Frazier hid under his clothing the Friday morning the same Paper sack Montogomery held aloft at 3.00pm. JD planted that folded sack somewhere on the upper floors of the TSBD.

Randle, had foreknowledge of the paper sack and its intended discovery. Randle armed with this knowledge approached the DPD in Irving at around 2.30pm.
Randle told Adamcik of Oswald and a suspicious package/sack large enough to carry a rifle.

3.00pm The sack made its way outside the TSBD with Montgomery holding it aloft and unfolded.

Of course I could be way off the mark, and I could have this completely arse about.....they're just thoughts. I believe the Randles and their Irving First Baptist connections are key to understanding how its entirely possible Linnie Mae was up to her neck in this.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 12:16 pm

Jake Sykes wrote:Obsessing on it now, I ask myself how did the initial DPD interview with Linnie go? 
(hypothetical) 
Linnie: He was carrying a sack. (actually the lunch sack with a cheese sandwich and an apple)
DPD: Did it look like a gun? (leading the witness, applying pressure. If she says no, it will look like a cover-up)
Linnie: Well, it could have, I don't know.
DPD: How big was it etc?
Linnie may feel she must provide information that will 'satisfy' the cops and at least leave open the possibility that it was a gun.
When did Wes first speak of a sack? After the interview and after he had a chance to talk to Linnie May? I'm sure it's been covered already. Sorry that I'm lame on this. Just throwing out thoughts.
Jake, great Hypothetical,


Linnie Mae told Adamcik that it was a suspicious sack which was large enough to carry a rifle. That was at around 2.30pm Friday 22nd. WTH! Thought the sack held curtain rods.  Shocked

When asked on that Friday to state how long the sack was she insisted it was 3' 6" long. I say she was not coerced to make that statement. For reasons stated above.

As for Wes and his knowledge of the sack, and when he learned of it's existence, I say he knew about it Thursday evening when he made it at home from materials taken from his place of work.

The First Baptist clan from Irving Dallas did not quite get along with little commie bastards back in '63

All speculation of course. Laughing
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 6:44 pm

Mick, just one thing... it wasn't the DPD who interviewed the neighbors, it was the FBI on Dec 1.

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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by greg parker on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 7:06 pm

Mick's theory, if accurate, does fit a pattern. Apologies in advance if I have any of this wrong - am going from memory.

FBI-CIA inform DPD of MC shenanigans. Oswald denies. Evidence produced by Ruth Paine which was missed in multiple previous searches.

Ruth Pain informs of the existence of a photo showing Oswald with a weapon (a presumption on my part because she was interpreting the conversation between Marina and Marguerite about such a photo). Mike Paine informs of the alleged address at Neely St. Meanwhile Marina destroys photo. Then photo/s turn up after being missed in initial search. Oswald denies photo - denies Neely St.

Porter Bledsoe informs Oswald rode a getaway bus. Ticket discovered on Oswald despite not being found in previous search.

Oswald accused of being Walker shooter by German newspaper. Alleged Walker letter handed in by Ruth Paine after not being found in multiple earlier searches.

Oswald alleged to have traveled to and from Walker home by bus with the carbine concealed under a coat per Marina. Marina knew, and would have told authorities early on, that Oswald had transported his shotgun in Minsk to the store in which he bought it, in order to resell it prior to returning to US (source Oswald's Ghost). The Minsk story got transplanted and used for the Walker shooting.

There are probably other examples... but the pattern is... the accusation is made with evidence conveniently following.

The bag may have been planted prior to the assassination, or the police could have made it specifically due to Linnie's story, or could have made it initially for another purpose, then applied it to Linnie's story.

Imo, the actual bag would only be needed if Oswald is captured alive.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



https://www.thenewdisease.space
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

Post by Colin Crow on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 7:35 pm

I think you are right Greg. The information was massaged to fit the storyline. That's why we have so much conflicting/altered/missing information.

The lack of establishing an accurate chronology was crucial to the WC. If they did much of the case evaporates.
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Re: Linnie Bags a Whopper

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