Linnie Bags a Whopper

First topic message reminder :

I feel compelled to revisit the rifle sack story and Linnie-Mae’s involvement in the creation of that and try and establish a chronology for the time shortly before and after the sack appeared out front the TSBD held aloft with some sort of stick or rod by a detective.

Also to try and establish the moments just prior to and after Linnie-Mae’s divulging of the news of a suspicious case or sack carried by Oswald that morning to detectives at Ruth Paines house.

In my opinion the suspicious sack is a complete fabrication – a creation used to assist in the framing of Oswald.
Crucially Randle’s timing of her telling police at the Paines house of that suspicious sack is at or about the same time the sack was seen outside the front steps of the TSBD.

I have come to believe Linnie Mae had prior knowledge of the sack which was to be “discovered” at the TSBD. I believe the sack we see in the photograph held aloft by the detective was planted by person/s unknown and definitely not planted on the sixth floor.


Jack Dougherty could be that person.
 














On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited us
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.

Mick Purdy wrote:

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

Redfern if I'm not mistaken that is the timeline given for the bag being "discovered" inside the building. Quite separate to the pic outside the building at 3.00pm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

McAdams says twice that it was taken outside at 2:19 - he uses this to argue that police didn't have time to fake it.

I should use more reliable sources.

There should be no way Buell hears this first report to include Lee's name.
2:43 pm cst WBAP's David Daniel interrupts for word from Dallas Police of the arrest of "a 24-year-old man, Lee H. Oswald" in connection with the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. He's being questioned to see if he has any connection with JFK assassination. "Oswald was pulled screaming and yelling" from the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. After a pistol is taken from him during a scuffle, he's quoted as saying, "It's all over now."

Redfern wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

Redfern if I'm not mistaken that is the timeline given for the bag being "discovered" inside the building. Quite separate to the pic outside the building at 3.00pm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

McAdams says twice that it was taken outside at 2:19 - he uses this to argue that police didn't have time to fake it.

I should use more reliable sources.

lol.

Credit Lee Farley for the pictures.


Linnie Mae's Testimony file is empty. Why?

Mick Purdy wrote:Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag. 


No theres not but I'm laying money on the fact that Wes hung around long enough to know that the sack had been planted 


He has lied for 53 years about his whereabouts after the assassination....he is IMO not a victim in this.


He went MIA after the assassination and didn't really surface officially anyway until around 5-6.00pm. And don't forget Linnie Mae gave false statements to the police regarding his whereabouts too

A few months after his WC testimony, Frazier was interviewed by William Manchester. On page 355 of the paper back edition of Death of a President, is this passage: "Wesley Frazier, who had driven Lee Oswald and his rifle into downtown Dallas five hours earlier, calmly polished off his lunch in the Book Depository and then, realising that there could be no further work in the growing turmoil. drove back to Irving


Not sure if this is anymore reliable than anything else, but I am still struck by the similarities between what Oswald allegedly said in custody and Frazier was claiming about himself. Here, the comparison is in Frazier saying he left because he realized there could be no further work in the "growing turmoil".

Lunch: gave the same or very similar details of the lunch they brought AND how they brought it - both said a sandwich and an apple in a sack either beside them in the car or between their legs.

Both claimed to eat alone - Oswald in DR and Frazier in the basement. 

I have no idea what to make of such coincidences.

Mick Purdy wrote:

Redfern wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Redfern wrote:McAdams has the photograph of the bag outside the TSBD as being taken at 2.19pm. I've seen this elsewhere but don't know how it could be verified.

From an old thread on the Education Forum it seems Oswald's name was first being reported on TV about 2.40-2.45pm (ABC), 2.59 (CBS) and 3.20 (NBC), but the TSBD would have been mentioned much earlier.

Is there any reliable way of knowing when Frazier left the TSBD? He could have seen or heard about the discovery of the bag.

If you really suspected someone of killing the president, you'd surely phone the police straight away.

Redfern if I'm not mistaken that is the timeline given for the bag being "discovered" inside the building. Quite separate to the pic outside the building at 3.00pm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

McAdams says twice that it was taken outside at 2:19 - he uses this to argue that police didn't have time to fake it.

I should use more reliable sources.

lol.

And isn't that the mistake that all these guys make, assuming the cops would've faked everything , near as I can tell a lot of the stuff was put in front of their noses and they just followed the scent.....they were lazy and crooked it would've been a cakewalk to have them follow the trail that was laid out  imo

Mick Purdy wrote:

If I didn't know any better I'd swear it looks as though these two know one another. Linnie doesn't look the type to be messed with either.



Interesting too that her testimony file is empty. I wonder why.

I believe the bag was made by Day and Studebaker on the first floor sometime before 2pm. It was made as a wrapper with the intention to transport the rifle to the crime lab but Day got second thoughts. It later was moved, likely by Studebaker back to the 6th floor where it was "discovered". The stick inside the bag was likely the window sill piece removed for fingerprinting. In that aspect it explains why Montgomery was not concerned about stuff falling out the bag. They left the building at 3pm....a closeup of the watch shows this. Tony Fratini has put all the pieces together on this at Duncan's forum in the thread entitled CE142 What the flap...

As for Linnie May and Frazier I believe the time that Rose, Adamchek etc arrived was much earlier. Check the local cops timing.....there is no way they sat in a car waiting for 40 minutes for them to arrive.

Frazier also has missing time, he likely went home and was totally aware of his predicament. He may have even known while driving home listening to the radio. The plan was to send him to see the abusive step-father to buy time and cook up a story so he could avoid involvement.

Who knows how the bag story got planted with the brother and sister.

Colin Crow wrote:I believe the bag was made by Day and Studebaker on the first floor sometime before 2pm. It was made as a wrapper with the intention to transport the rifle to the crime lab but Day got second thoughts. It later was moved, likely by Studebaker back to the 6th floor where it was "discovered". The stick inside the bag was likely the window sill piece removed for fingerprinting. In that aspect it explains why Montgomery was not concerned about stuff falling out the bag. They left the building at 3pm....a closeup of the watch shows this. Tony Fratini has put all the pieces together on this at Duncan's forum in the thread entitled CE142 What the flap...

As for Linnie May and Frazier I believe the time that Rose, Adamchek etc arrived was much earlier. Check the local cops timing.....there is no way they sat in a car waiting for 40 minutes for them to arrive.

Frazier also has missing time, he likely went home and was totally aware of his predicament. He may have even known while driving home listening to the radio. The plan was to send him to see the abusive step-father to buy time and cook up a story so he could avoid involvement.

Who knows how the bag story got planted with the brother and sister.

Thanks Colin.  If the cops made it to carry the rifle, did it actually fit? Why aren't Buell and Linnie on board with making it the right size? Why did the cops fold it up when they decided to take it upstairs?

I think Oswald was telling the truth when he said Buell was thinking of another time. I think it's possible Oswald did take curtain rods the week before. See the Washing Machine Conspiracy thread - if I'm right, that would be where the idea for the bag came from - not to mention the idea to say it was curtain rods. It could still be that Day and Studebaker made the bag, but in this scenario it was made for the frame. The manner it was carried out may well have been over concerns about prints. Not sure they would be concerned in '63 about any forensic evidence falling out. At best, they may have expected some oil - but that would hardly drip out. 

While we're considering scenarios, I guess it's also possible that Buell and Linnie concocted the bag story and that got back to the TSBD. The bag was made for the purpose you put forward but when they heard that Oswald was supposed to have brought in a long package and it was not found... voila... now we have it, and up to 6 it goes.

There was a small piece of wood and some wax found in the bag, consistent with it carrying the wooden sill piece. It was made to transport the rifle fully assembled as a wrapper. Day and Studebaker had the rifle at the wrapping table before Day left. He admitted in No More Silence that he was concerned about preserving prints on the rifle but a paper wrapping might rub them off and decided against. I think that's exactly what happened. Once Day left Studebaker returned to the sixth floor with the wrapper as it had, briefly, contained the rifle and could be considered evidence. He likely placed it outside the SN where it was later found by Montgomery stuck between boxes.

The rest is likely Chinese whispers. The FBI gets it that night as it had been made to "transport the rifle". I wonder exactly the bag story as conveyed by Frazier and Randle was concocoted. Look at the missing time. Randle going to Paines and Frazier going to the hospital. What was said between them to avoid trouble for Buell?

Colin Crow wrote:There was a small piece of wood and some wax found in the bag, consistent with it carrying the wooden sill piece. It was made to transport the rifle fully assembled as a wrapper. Day and Studebaker had the rifle at the wrapping table before Day left. He admitted in No More Silence that he was concerned about preserving prints on the rifle but a paper wrapping might rub them off and decided against. I think that's exactly what happened. Once Day left Studebaker returned to the sixth floor with the wrapper as it had, briefly, contained the rifle and could be considered evidence. He likely placed it outside the SN where it was later found by Montgomery stuck between boxes.

The rest is likely Chinese whispers. The FBI gets it that night as it had been made to "transport the rifle". I wonder exactly the bag story as conveyed by Frazier and Randle was concocoted. Look at the missing time. Randle going to Paines and Frazier going to the hospital. What was said between them to avoid trouble for Buell?

Thanks fr the clarification Colin. It's an argument worth considering for sure.

Once they had the bag made and claimed it was the rifle bag, Frazier and Randle had no choice but to go along with it. I'm pretty sure Buell knew about the bag and a lot of that missing time Colin refers to was discussing what to say was in the bag according to Oswald. Curtain rods is a good story. The size also matters. It can't be the same size. If it is then Frazier risks driving the killer. A lot has been made of  Frazier and his sister not going along with the full story of the bag. Why they didn't just admit yep that's the bag. My belief is that had they done that it could create problems for Frazier as an accomplice. Saying it was a different bag gives credence to their bullshit story and puts the onus on the cops who fucking made up the bag. At the end of the day the only thing that mattered was that they got Buell and Linnie to say Oswald carried a paper bag with him that day. If they had said he didn't Buell was in trouble.

Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon. 

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

Redfern wrote:Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon. 

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

That's an interesting notion but I thought - and I could most certainly be wrong on the timing - that Buell had left the TSBD before the rifle was even found.

That's not to say that the DPD could not have created the "bag" earlier in anticipation of finding the rifle... or a piece of windowsill that had been broken off.

Terry W. Martin wrote:

Redfern wrote:Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon. 

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

That's an interesting notion but I thought - and I could most certainly be wrong on the timing - that Buell had left the TSBD before the rifle was even found.

That's not to say that the DPD could not have created the "bag" earlier in anticipation of finding the rifle... or a piece of windowsill that had been broken off.

If we can believe what is in Death of a President, Frazier claimed to have left after eating lunch and coming upstairs, seeing the chaos and realizing there'd be no more work that day (words also ascribed to Oswald during interrogation). Manchester notes that this was about 5 hours after driving with Oswald to work - which makes it about 1 pm and earlier than anyone else left (except for Oz).

They had telephones back in 1963. I'd love to see Linnies phone records just after 1pm that day. I'm almost sure they knew they had to account for the rifle that was found. I think the bag came before the curtain rod story.

It may be that Frazier was allowed to leave before 2pm. It was around this time that Day and Frazier were making the bag at the wrapping table.

No doubt Frazier was listening on the radio on the drive home. I believe he would go there first and talk with LMR. Then the strange decision to go to the hospital that was not far from their home. 

I think Ruth Paine felt that the cops arrived much earlier than they claimed. Likely about the time Oswald was mentioned by name as being arrested on the radio. Remember Ruth saying to the cops.....we were expecting you. Did LMR really go to the Paines' or did they visit her after Ruth told them of Frazier?

Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

Why is Randle's Testimony folder empty.
Why is that?

It's a reasonable question. there maybe an innocent explanation, or maybe not. 

It should not be empty.

Interesting that the first statement by LMR claims a longer package (often quoted by LNs).....only after that do brother and sister decide on 2 feet. Wonder if Buell convinced her to adjust downward to make it easier for him to argue "curtain rods".

Many people are under the impression that over the years Randle and Frazier kept the bag size to under or around 2 feet when telling their stories. 

But the fact is that they consistently when on camera, extend the bags length in a very visual way to around 3 feet or longer. 

Now whether that was deliberate or not is up for debate,

Mick Purdy wrote:Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

All good points, Mick. I did raise concerns about her and Wes on this forum some time ago. You have gone beyond my timid (I thought "careful" LOL)  questions and have made a hell of a case to back it up. It's really now just finding out how the actual physical bag ties in with Linnie's report to Adamcik. Lot's of possibilities. 

It is the politics of the family that I believe ties them to certain others that will become important as well.  It was their politics that got me wondering about them to start with. Dixiecrats.

Redfern wrote:Maybe this is a tad cynical, but does the 'fact' that Linnie Mae claimed perhaps as early as 3.30pm that she saw Oswald carrying a long package not hinge on the reliability of the testimony from Adamcik and Stovall?

The paper bag/curtain rods story was a critical part of the case against Oswald and police would have had a huge amount of leverage over Frazier and his sister, especially in light of his absence that afternoon. 

If police made the paper bag themselves, would Frazier have been aware before he left the TSBD?

Redfern,

Great point,

I have thought about this long and hard too. Its possible. The report was made after the fact.

Its possible as the report was probably written up as the story was evolving. I cannot discount that.

What make it more interesting is the report also contains two other pieces of info which have red flags on them too.

The "we were expecting you" line is in there and one of the 4 different scenarios of Frazier's arrest and detention is included too.

For now I'm going with the report albeit cautiously, I believe if I or we diss this report then where does that end, what is genuine what is not?

until we know any more I'll stick with the report, but I do so knowing parts of it may be contrived to support the official version

Mick Purdy wrote:Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

They had to frame him. Mick. They had little choice. If they don't Buell joins Oswald. Oswald was always being framed. That was the process throughout the arrest. Buell and Linnie played a part in it. Buell was shit scared back then as he is now. Especially with Prayer Man surfacing. Now he has to frame him again by saying he doesn't know who his mate Oswald is who is standing beside him.