Linnie Bags a Whopper

First topic message reminder :

I feel compelled to revisit the rifle sack story and Linnie-Mae’s involvement in the creation of that and try and establish a chronology for the time shortly before and after the sack appeared out front the TSBD held aloft with some sort of stick or rod by a detective.

Also to try and establish the moments just prior to and after Linnie-Mae’s divulging of the news of a suspicious case or sack carried by Oswald that morning to detectives at Ruth Paines house.

In my opinion the suspicious sack is a complete fabrication – a creation used to assist in the framing of Oswald.
Crucially Randle’s timing of her telling police at the Paines house of that suspicious sack is at or about the same time the sack was seen outside the front steps of the TSBD.

I have come to believe Linnie Mae had prior knowledge of the sack which was to be “discovered” at the TSBD. I believe the sack we see in the photograph held aloft by the detective was planted by person/s unknown and definitely not planted on the sixth floor.


Jack Dougherty could be that person.
 














On November 22, 1963, the date of the assassination of the President, Detectives G. F. Rose and R.S. Stovall arrived at the homicide Office at approximately 2:00 PM. This was as soon after the killing as we could get to the office. We were in the office about 10 or 15 minutes when at approximately 2:15 PM, Lee Harvey Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office. We (Rose and Stovall) talked to him briefly, obtaining his ID and name, and at about 2:30 PM Capt. Fritz, R. M. Sims, and E.L. Boyd came into the office. Capt. Fritz instructed Detectives Rose and Stovall to get one additional man and to go Irving, Texas, meet the County Officers and make a search of the house at 2515 West 5th, Irving. This was the house where Lee Oswald's wife lived with Ruth Paine, and Oswald stayed there on week ends. We took Detective J. P. Adamcik and immediately drove to 2515 West 5th, Irving and parked about one-half block from the Paine Home to await the arrival of the County Officers, after approximately a 40-minute wait, Detectives Harry H. Weatherford, E. W. (Buddy) Walthers, and J.L. Oxford of the Dallas County CID arrived. We instructed them of our mission and drove to the front of the Paine home. Detectives Adamcik and two of the County Officers went to the back door, and one county officer and Stovall and Rose went to the front door - time approximately 3:30 PM. Upon stepping onto the front porch, we heard the TV and see two people sitting in the living room. Ruth Paine answered our knock on the door. She was very cordial, and her first statement after we presented our ID, was "Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." She invited us
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 2
to make a search of her home at which time we began a methodical search of the house, for a list of items we took from the house see the attached property list. At approximately 3:45 PM Michael Ralph Paine walked up the walkway and entered the house without knocking. He told Ruth Paine "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right on over to see if I could be of any help to you." He also told her that he had just walked off the job. At the suggestion of Marina Oswald, wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, we also made a search of the garage, which is attached to the Paine home. Mrs. Oswald was asked about her husband's rifle, and she stated that he kept it in the garage wrapped in a blanket. She was speaking in Russian, and Ruth Paine was interpreting for us. She pointed to a rolled-up blanket laying on the garage floor, and said, "That is where he keeps his rifle". (in Russian, interpreted by Ruth Paine) Also see attached Property List. After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating for evidence into our car and into the car of the Dallas County Sheriff's office. About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there.
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 3
We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and ge informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, the proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's
Rose-Stovall-Adamcik - Page 4
sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

They had to frame him. Mick. They had little choice. If they don't Buell joins Oswald. Oswald was always being framed. That was the process throughout the arrest. Buell and Linnie played a part in it. Buell was shit scared back then as he is now. Especially with Prayer Man surfacing. Now he has to frame him again by saying he doesn't know who his mate Oswald is who is standing beside him.

I don't disagree Paul with the fact they (Frazier and Randle) had to frame Lee.

What we do disagree on is their wittingness, and as stated before thats fine. Thats healthy IMO. its what this forum is so good at.

Colin Crow wrote:I believe the bag was made by Day and Studebaker on the first floor sometime before 2pm. It was made as a wrapper with the intention to transport the rifle to the crime lab but Day got second thoughts. It later was moved, likely by Studebaker back to the 6th floor where it was "discovered". The stick inside the bag was likely the window sill piece removed for fingerprinting. In that aspect it explains why Montgomery was not concerned about stuff falling out the bag. They left the building at 3pm....a closeup of the watch shows this. Tony Fratini has put all the pieces together on this at Duncan's forum in the thread entitled CE142 What the flap...

As for Linnie May and Frazier I believe the time that Rose, Adamchek etc arrived was much earlier. Check the local cops timing.....there is no way they sat in a car waiting for 40 minutes for them to arrive.

Frazier also has missing time, he likely went home and was totally aware of his predicament. He may have even known while driving home listening to the radio. The plan was to send him to see the abusive step-father to buy time and cook up a story so he could avoid involvement.

Who knows how the bag story got planted with the brother and sister.

G'day Colin,

The only problem I have with this version is I'm having trouble understanding (not unusual by the way) or comprehending Day and Studebaker making a sack to transport the rifle. Why?  Making that sack on the first floor before 2.00pm with all the commotion and goings on with all the people there. 

But then also deciding that same sack will not be used to transport the rifle but will be planted as evidence on the sixth floor.

Now I'm not for one minute suggesting it could not have happened this way, I'm having some reservations though about the flip flop on what the bag was initially intended for and what it ended up being used as.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:They had telephones back in 1963. I'd love to see Linnies phone records just after 1pm that day. I'm almost sure they knew they had to account for the rifle that was found. I think the bag came before the curtain rod story.

Paul so would I.

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

They had to frame him. Mick. They had little choice. If they don't Buell joins Oswald. Oswald was always being framed. That was the process throughout the arrest. Buell and Linnie played a part in it. Buell was shit scared back then as he is now. Especially with Prayer Man surfacing. Now he has to frame him again by saying he doesn't know who his mate Oswald is who is standing beside him.

I don't disagree Paul with the fact they (Frazier and Randle) had to frame Lee.

What we do disagree on is their wittingness, and as stated before thats fine. Thats healthy IMO. its what this forum is so good at.

They had their motives. That much we can also agree on. They also did a good job on him. Curtain rods proved to be genius.

Colin Crow wrote:Interesting that the first statement by LMR claims a longer package (often quoted by LNs).....only after that do brother and sister decide on 2 feet. Wonder if Buell convinced her to adjust downward to make it easier for him to argue "curtain rods".

Good point Colin.

How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

greg parker wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

All good points, Mick. I did raise concerns about her and Wes on this forum some time ago. You have gone beyond my timid (I thought "careful" LOL)  questions and have made a hell of a case to back it up. It's really now just finding out how the actual physical bag ties in with Linnie's report to Adamcik. Lot's of possibilities. 

It is the politics of the family that I believe ties them to certain others that will become important as well.  It was their politics that got me wondering about them to start with. Dixiecrats.

Yes you did Greg, 2009 to precise.

Your research on the subject was the catalyst for my delving into Frazier and Randle's story.

There are many reasons why I believe they are involved. 

It was your research all those years ago about the politics of the Randle family which helped me to understand why it was more than possible that the Randles along with Frazier could easily have been complicit, all is not what it seemed at that household. Not at all. 

I happen to believe like the second floor encounter the chess pieces pertaining to that Friday morning at the Randle household, the sighting of Lee trudging over to the house with the long sack and the drive into work along with the absurd Car parking lot story were moved furiously about by Wes and Linnie to suit themesleves and cover certain things up.

And finally, regarding the bag and its appearance outside the TSBD 3.00pm. I'd much rather go with the version of the discovery of a bag folded or not unwittingly by the police at around 2.30-2.50pm instead of two detectives on their own intiative or with orders from above making it and planting the sack and having it discovered by others. If as I believe the shells /Hulls? and the rifle were planted by person/s unknown then I believe the bag was also planted by same.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:Frazier claims leaving TSBD anytime between 1.00pm and 2.00pm.

He has changed his story completely about what he did immediately after the assassination.

He lied about what he did in that first  hour for the record.

Stovall Rose and Adimcak's report says that Linnie Mae drove up to the Paine's House and approached them and told them of a suspicious sack or case.

Linnie Mae Randle had ample opportunity to adjust her admissions to authorities without offending the official version.

She never did need to tell them she saw Oswald place the package on the back seat of We's car to uphold the official script, She never did have to tell them that she could see the parcel being place there through the slats of the car port. She never did have to tell them anything other than she saw him with a long package IMO. She has for years been overlooked by many mainstream researchers as to her possible involvement in the framing of Oswald IMO.

To ignore the possibility of either Randles or Frazier's involvement in framing Lee is to ignore every single document, report, statement or affidavit which suggests otherwise. IMO

They had to frame him. Mick. They had little choice. If they don't Buell joins Oswald. Oswald was always being framed. That was the process throughout the arrest. Buell and Linnie played a part in it. Buell was shit scared back then as he is now. Especially with Prayer Man surfacing. Now he has to frame him again by saying he doesn't know who his mate Oswald is who is standing beside him.

I don't disagree Paul with the fact they (Frazier and Randle) had to frame Lee.

What we do disagree on is their wittingness, and as stated before thats fine. Thats healthy IMO. its what this forum is so good at.

They had their motives. That much we can also agree on. They also did a good job on him. Curtain rods proved to be genius.

They did an excellent job on him, that's proven. Thats why the continual discussion about the pair downsizing or understating the bags length has always amused me.
It just didn't matter, in the end as you say and I wholeheartedly agree , they did an enormous number on him where they lied and he died (sorry Terry, a little rip off there hope you're not offended)

As with all crimes the timeline is they key.....I believe this,is,another giveaway.....who did/knew what and when. Much of the puzzle will be clearer if we can get an accurate sequence of events.

Colin Crow wrote:As with all crimes the timeline is they key.....I believe this,is,another giveaway.....who did/knew what and when. Much of the puzzle will be clearer if we can get an accurate sequence of events.

Too true Colin,

Its tough because of the BS they have in the record, knowing which is accurate and which is not.

But you're right the timeline is key.

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

Another 2FE??

Who knows. I've always felt that if the test proved anything remotely in favour of what these guys were after it would've been shouted from the roof tops.

The fact there is nothing in the record to show the results either way probably speaks volumes about the truth of the matter.

The reports are all over the place with this as they are with so many other things that day.....I would go with it not happening, but thats nothing more than gut feel and we know where that gets us most of the time.

Again it is alleged he passed. If that pass meant supporting the authorities version then I would suggest they would've shown the public immediately.

Wes is alive he is still with us, its now or never really isn't it. 

Somehow some way we need to have somebody talk with him on camera one last time.

We have so many new questions to present to him and they should and can be answered.

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

They were probably trying to get him and his sister to identify the bag. That's the guess I'd hazard. I'd say he would have been under the Reid technique. The polygraph test isn't just used for lie detecting purposes. It's a tool used by the police to intimidate. There is a reason why its not allowable evidence in court.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

They were probably trying to get him and his sister to identify the bag. That's the guess I'd hazard. I'd say he would have been under the Reid technique. The polygraph test isn't just used for lie detecting purposes. It's a tool used by the police to intimidate. There is a reason why its not allowable evidence in court.

Paul I'm sure what you say is in part very true.

But Reid technique or not, polygraph bluff or not they both had given affidavits which in the main subscribed to the official version at that moment in time, the fact is the first lot of signed affidavits were torn up and a second lot taken down at the later interrogations. To my mind they were already on board with the bag ostensibly. Why the near on 4 hour extension of interrogation...they already were sold way before then. 

Of course I could be over thinking, I could have this all arse about something just doesn't fit at least for me anyways

If the conversation between Frazier and Randle re Curtain Rods and a brown paper sack did take place on Thursday evening as per their statements and WC testimony, then it goes without saying Linnie Mae had no reason at all to be suspicious after seeing Oswald the next morning with a long brown paper package.
None Zip Nada.
 
She had no reason to approach Adamcik if this were true.
Her arrival at the Paine residence to tell of her suspicion to police is no less remarkable than Ruth Paine's greeting to detectives Rose and Stovall,
 
"Come on in, we were expecting you. Just as soon as we heard where it happened, we figured someone would be out." 


Of course we know that Frazier and Randle fabricated the curtain rod / sack story.
It’s a lie.


Either the Rose Stovall Adamcik report is lying or Randle is. And for me that matters, matters a lot. 


For if I'm right and Randle divulges her concerns to Adamcik at or about 3.00pm-3.30pm that to my mind means Randle has fore knowledge of a sack being discovered.


Ruth Paines WC testimony regarding the timing of her admission to Adamcik that she was expecting them can be supported by her version of when she had discovered where the shots had come from.


The time line for this exchange refers to the period before the police arrived at the house




Mr. McCLOY - Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots.
Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television? 


Mrs. PAINE - No; that was earlier. 


Mr. McCLOY - That was even earlier? 


Mrs. PAINE - Yes; before it was announced that he was dead. 
 
 
Of course Paine could be lying through her teeth too.

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

They were probably trying to get him and his sister to identify the bag. That's the guess I'd hazard. I'd say he would have been under the Reid technique. The polygraph test isn't just used for lie detecting purposes. It's a tool used by the police to intimidate. There is a reason why its not allowable evidence in court.

Paul I'm sure what you say is in part very true.

But Reid technique or not, polygraph bluff or not they both had given affidavits which in the main subscribed to the official version at that moment in time, the fact is the first lot of signed affidavits were torn up and a second lot taken down at the later interrogations. To my mind they were already on board with the bag ostensibly. Why the near on 4 hour extension of interrogation...they already were sold way before then. 

Of course I could be over thinking, I could have this all arse about something just doesn't fit at least for me anyways

Mick, why do you think they both got their size of the bag wrong if they were on board?

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

They were probably trying to get him and his sister to identify the bag. That's the guess I'd hazard. I'd say he would have been under the Reid technique. The polygraph test isn't just used for lie detecting purposes. It's a tool used by the police to intimidate. There is a reason why its not allowable evidence in court.

Paul I'm sure what you say is in part very true.

But Reid technique or not, polygraph bluff or not they both had given affidavits which in the main subscribed to the official version at that moment in time, the fact is the first lot of signed affidavits were torn up and a second lot taken down at the later interrogations. To my mind they were already on board with the bag ostensibly. Why the near on 4 hour extension of interrogation...they already were sold way before then. 

Of course I could be over thinking, I could have this all arse about something just doesn't fit at least for me anyways

Mick, why do you think they both got their size of the bag wrong if they were on board?

Paul,

I think I know where this maybe headed, and I understand anybody's reticence in believing that these two are complicit. I have consisitently claimed that the size of their estimates mattered not. So I don't view their estimates as wrong.

I view them as convenient. And I also view them as meaningless in the scheme of things. Others may not. What the two did very effectively no matter which camp you sit in is destroy Lee and his alibi.
 

I've never subscribed to the bag size as crucial to anything that matters regarding the outcome for Lee, of course that's just me.

They did all the damage by implication IMO.

They continually changed their estimates of the length, color, and size of the sack constantly over the journey.

Linnie had that bag and not just in first day statements at 3 feet 6 inches, now that surely indicates she has the propensity for wild fabrication and not defending Oswald interests. 

But hell we can agree to disagree, my theory is up here to be torn down by better minds than mine, to be sure

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

They were probably trying to get him and his sister to identify the bag. That's the guess I'd hazard. I'd say he would have been under the Reid technique. The polygraph test isn't just used for lie detecting purposes. It's a tool used by the police to intimidate. There is a reason why its not allowable evidence in court.

Paul I'm sure what you say is in part very true.

But Reid technique or not, polygraph bluff or not they both had given affidavits which in the main subscribed to the official version at that moment in time, the fact is the first lot of signed affidavits were torn up and a second lot taken down at the later interrogations. To my mind they were already on board with the bag ostensibly. Why the near on 4 hour extension of interrogation...they already were sold way before then. 

Of course I could be over thinking, I could have this all arse about something just doesn't fit at least for me anyways

Mick, why do you think they both got their size of the bag wrong if they were on board?

Paul,

I think I know where this maybe headed, and I understand anybody's reticence in believing that these two are complicit. I have consisitently claimed that the size of their estimates mattered not. So I don't view their estimates as wrong.

I view them as convenient. And I also view them as meaningless in the scheme of things. Others may not. What the two did very effectively no matter which camp you sit in is destroy Lee and his alibi.
 

I've never subscribed to the bag size as crucial to anything that matters regarding the outcome for Lee, of course that's just me.

They did all the damage by implication IMO.

They continually changed their estimates of the length, color, and size of the sack constantly over the journey.

Linnie had that bag and not just in first day statements at 3 feet 6 inches, now that surely indicates she has the propensity for wild fabrication and not defending Oswald interests. 

But hell we can agree to disagree, my theory is up here to be torn down by better minds than mine, to be sure

I wasn't leading anywhere, Mick, with that question. Just curious. They hung Oswald out to dry like many others did. I don't sympathise with Frazier or his sister but I do believe I understand their motivation and their predicament. There maybe more than meets the eye with all this as you suggest but even if there is it doesn't really matter unless proved. I don't discount anything in this case.

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:

greg parker wrote:How does the lie detector fit in here? From all I have read on it - if it happened at all - it was 100% in regard to the bag. They even allegedly had it there to show him. And again - allegedly - he passed.

The lack of a report, the denial of any memory of it y the alleged polygrapher and the conflicting reports from cops that later emerged are all strong indicators that this was not what it purports to be.

Again though, I'm struggling to fit it in to the emerging scenario laid out here. 

Best I can think is that some sort of deal was struck regarding what the story would be.

The deal was to bullshit but it wasn't a struck one. More implied IMO. Both Buell and Linnie were adamant. The lie detector was probably a threat. I'm sure Buell went through a lot of that.

Something happened. I'd hazard a guess something of significance.

Around 9.00pm or just prior to, when the police were driving Frazier Randle and the Rev back to Irving they were called back to City Hall. 

For a lie detector test? I doubt that very much. I know that's been the story for decades but I don't buy that.

No, imo something happened back at City Hall that warranted immediate attention. A discovery? a phone in? new evidence? 

Who knows but the car was turned around and commanded to bring them back to the offices at City Hall.

We may never know what transpired after that, because the record of this event is full of contradiction. 

What we do know is that Frazier and Randle along with Campble? (Campbell) were dropped of at Irving some time around 1.00am or maybe even later than that after the second interrogations took place.

It would appear Frazier was released unconditionally along with Randle and Campble.

If we can believe Frazier and Randle then Frazier without question should have been held as an accomplice to the crime, I have no argument with that. The fact that he was released unconditionally seems at odds with the curtain rods and sack story he was allegedly telling the authorities at least that night at that time.

Something seems awry here and I can't put my finger on it.

What happened back at City hall after 9.00pm is something Wes could still come clean about imo

They were probably trying to get him and his sister to identify the bag. That's the guess I'd hazard. I'd say he would have been under the Reid technique. The polygraph test isn't just used for lie detecting purposes. It's a tool used by the police to intimidate. There is a reason why its not allowable evidence in court.

Paul I'm sure what you say is in part very true.

But Reid technique or not, polygraph bluff or not they both had given affidavits which in the main subscribed to the official version at that moment in time, the fact is the first lot of signed affidavits were torn up and a second lot taken down at the later interrogations. To my mind they were already on board with the bag ostensibly. Why the near on 4 hour extension of interrogation...they already were sold way before then. 

Of course I could be over thinking, I could have this all arse about something just doesn't fit at least for me anyways

Mick, why do you think they both got their size of the bag wrong if they were on board?

Paul,

I think I know where this maybe headed, and I understand anybody's reticence in believing that these two are complicit. I have consisitently claimed that the size of their estimates mattered not. So I don't view their estimates as wrong.

I view them as convenient. And I also view them as meaningless in the scheme of things. Others may not. What the two did very effectively no matter which camp you sit in is destroy Lee and his alibi.
 

I've never subscribed to the bag size as crucial to anything that matters regarding the outcome for Lee, of course that's just me.

They did all the damage by implication IMO.

They continually changed their estimates of the length, color, and size of the sack constantly over the journey.

Linnie had that bag and not just in first day statements at 3 feet 6 inches, now that surely indicates she has the propensity for wild fabrication and not defending Oswald interests. 

But hell we can agree to disagree, my theory is up here to be torn down by better minds than mine, to be sure

I wasn't leading anywhere, Mick, with that question. Just curious. They hung Oswald out to dry like many others did. I don't sympathise with Frazier or his sister but I do believe I understand their motivation and their predicament. There maybe more than meets the eye with all this as you suggest but even if there is it doesn't really matter unless proved. I don't discount anything in this case.

Paul probably poor choice of words on my part....I think what I meant by where this mabe headed is a stalemate.

As you say a lot of my theory is still in part based on speculation or at least joining the dots. I understand thats not going to get this case reopened or probably move it forward. I appreciate your comments, always have. Always to the point and honest. I like that.

Yes they with others hung Lee out to die or dry. Along with you I don't ever discount anything in this case.

Thanks for taking the time to read my shit too. 

It's not shit bro. I like reading your stuff. That Rider thread is one of the best threads I've seen on a JFK forum. It made me prick my ears up to what I thought I knew about Frazier and especially his sister. The car ride story to the TSBD needs an overhaul. Why the fuck would you rev the car up to keep the battery charged after you've driven from Irwing to Dallas. That's a 13 mile drive. His testimony is all about distancing himself from Oswald. He doesn't talk to him on the ride back, doesn't go in the TSBD with him and he doesn't see much of him during the day. His vagueness gives him away. Maybe he didn't drive him or maybe Buell would like to forget he did along with his rifle to work. That's what the cops are saying he did. 
Fucking brilliant thread.

Mick Purdy wrote:

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:They had telephones back in 1963. I'd love to see Linnies phone records just after 1pm that day. I'm almost sure they knew they had to account for the rifle that was found. I think the bag came before the curtain rod story.

Paul so would I.

Hey Mick,
Just noticed this post and I probably didn't clarify.

We know that Day and Studebaker had the rifle at the wrapping table before Day left for the crime lab. This was sometime before 2pm. He had already dusted the rifle on the 6th floor and I can't find any evidence that Day knew of the bag's discovery on the 6th prior to this. I believe the bag was "discovered" on the 6th after Day had left.

The bag was actually a wrapper designed to either hide the rifle from spectators or protect it on the journey (or both). Day admits as much in Sneed's book but had second thoughts about smudging prints. Perhaps the rifle was later on the paper for a short period to construct it. So in effect the bag was constructed with the intention of transporting the rifle. After Day leaves, Studebaker returned to the 6th floor SN. He may have decided to take the bag with him and folded it. He puts it down between boxes north of the SN where it is later found by Montgomery, (as revealed in Montogmery's Oral History). 

It leaves the TSBD as a cover for the window strip. It shows no evidence of being sealed at both ends and is not treated as evidence as it is held vertical with the open end down.  When evidence is sent to the FBI that might via Drain the bag is included as it had (briefly) contained the rifle. It was labelled as such as it had been made to transport the rifle, not by Oswald to the TSBD but by Day and Studebaker to leave the TSBD. The rest is Chinese whispers. It was not deliberately planted as such but became a convenient piece of evidence to "find" Oswald's prints by the FBI. The bag links Oswald to the rifle that day, without that the case falls apart.

G'day Colin,

I'm with you on a few things regarding your analysis of the timeline for the rifle ,sack and wooden strip. But there a couple of things which I don't subscribe to. I know yourself and Tony have done an enormous amount of work in this area so I am acutely aware of the time and energy that would've taken up. I also know that your timeline is probably most accurate.

The bag was actually a wrapper designed to either hide the rifle from spectators or protect it on the journey (or both).



I'm a little perplexed here mate, why would they want to hide the rifle, and as for protecting it not sure about that either


They were more than happy to grapple with the MC rifle on the sixth, more than happy to hold it by the strap on its way over to headquaters and and seemed proud as punch to hold it aloft for the media throng in the hallway of the DPD.


The pics say as much imo








As for the Sack we see outside the TSBD at 3.00pm in the pic with Montgomery, you're saying


It shows no evidence of being sealed at both ends and is not treated as evidence as it is held vertical with the open end down.  (emphasis mine)



Colin in all my years as a newscameraman way back when, I had observed hundreds of criminal evidence being conveyed about and in all my years the picture you see below fits exactly with that sack being part of the evidence being carried to headquaters.






imo that sack, and I'm drawing on experience here is being held exactly as it would imo if it was regarded as eveidence.


It looks that way to me and you know the old saying if it walks like.....well you know.


I may have this all completey wrong and I accept that and none of these comments is meant to discount the work you've done.


One last word on this is that whilst I understand Day may have made admissions to Sneed for his book, I remain skeptical about the DPD and their versions of events.

Was it found unfolded?

Why not refold it?

See where Im going here?

Cheers, Ed

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Was it found unfolded?

Why not refold it?

See where Im going here?

Cheers, Ed

Well Ed,

I can.