Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Greg Parker
 
I think at this stage, it would be a huge leap to say there is anything to it, nut maybe someone with genealogy skills could dig a bit.
 
As it happens, one of the other occupants* had the same name as a member of the Barrow gang... but that member was executed in the 30s.

Edit to add: occupant of N Beckley boarding house.

Terry Martin
 
Well, it was too good to be true, of course.
 
http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/content.detail/id/502094.html?nav=5011

The Beverly J Frazier was widow of Attorney John P. Frazier. She was born in Wheeling, WV, in 1925 and died at 82 in 2008.
 
Her granddaughter was one Melissa Markham.

No connections (at least very close ) to the Dallas/Huntsville crowd. So, back to the wish board, I guess.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin
 
Well, it was too good to be true, of course.
 
http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/content.detail/id/502094.html?nav=5011

The Beverly J Frazier was widow of Attorney John P. Frazier. She was born in Wheeling, WV, in 1925 and died at 82 in 2008.
 
Her granddaughter was one Melissa Markham.

No connections (at least very close ) to the Dallas/Huntsville crowd. So, back to the wish board, I guess.

Greg Parker

Thanks Terry.

Another one who separated from his spouse was Crafard.

Lee Farley

A spouse we know absolutely sod all about, Greg.  Dodgy as fuck the Crafard wife and kids story.

Stan Dane wrote:Lee Farley

A spouse we know absolutely sod all about, Greg.  Dodgy as fuck the Crafard wife and kids story.

Greg Parker
 
This is starting to sound like the Terry Gilliam version of the 7 Dwarfs...
 
Slumpy, Ducky, Dodgy.... Truly, Bitchy, Patsy.... & Larry?

Stan Dane wrote:Lee Farley

A spouse we know absolutely sod all about, Greg.  Dodgy as fuck the Crafard wife and kids story.

Hasan Yusuf

Information about Crafard's (so-called) wife can be found on pages 8 and 9 of the following pdf file:

[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI Records Files/44-24016/44-24016 Volume 45/44-24016-45C.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/44-24016/44-24016%20Volume%2045/44-24016-45C.pdf[/url]

Terry Martin

Hasan,

That's fascinating. With all the Dallas/Cuba connections being drawn in this case, we now have another doppelganger. Why am I not surprised?

Most interesting.
 
Crafard's parents lived in DALLAS, Oregon, and his wife was in CUBA, Missouri (Crawford County). He apparently married her in June '62 (when BWF got married) and separated in Sept. '63 (again same as BWF - was there a plague or something we don't know about?).

Dallas, Oregon, was a hotbed of racism and boasted the largest active cell of the KKK back in the 20's. Several reports indicate the area is still filled with a bunch of racist bastards... yes, even today. The town, of course, tries to play down any KKK connections, even though the High School team is the Dragons.

Cuba, Missouri, is on Route 66 just a bit SW of St. Louis.

Rt.66 has always interested me as being the first all paved national highway why did it go from Chicago to LA and not from the east coast to the west coast? Mafia hubs in both Chicago and St.Louis and their recent spread into LA seems to be the reason to me (but maybe that's just me - I think of the local Dulles Expressway as the main thoroughfare from Dulles to the secret government center at Mount Weather, which I can see from my front door).

The route's number was supposed to have been "60" but several people were pushing for "62", the head of the project finally chose 66 because numerological it was a "master number" - or because it was short for 666?

The two children of Wilma Jean "Billie" Craford, nee Case, stayed in Cuba, MO, Sept to Dec.25th, 1963, when they were picked up by Billie and her alleged husband, Chuck Anderson. (Whose kids were they? And who is this Chuck fellow?) I cannot seem to find out anything about her, the Chuck guy, or her first husband, Donald Johnson.

Around Feb.20th, 1964, Larry Crafard came looking for his wife and, finding her gone, left town hitchhiking west on Rt.66.

In the remainder of the pdf is reports from every FBI office saying NONE of them have any mention of Jack Ruby before 11/23/63.

This seems strange by any stretch of the imagination.

But the strangest thing I found in the collection was on pg.13, the letter from Vivian Williams about the personal abuse she took from one Grace Costello.

It is probably unrelated to the JFK case however. Just strange.

Ed Ledoux

How did BWF and LMR know how long to make or better yet NOT make the bags length so as it would fit any rifle broken down.

It seems they would need to know the length of the MC rifle so as not to be trapped into saying it could carry a rifle.
They are the only ones who are, or Wes is the only one whom claims it was rods for LHO's apt.

What the heck happened to LHO eating that day?
Hmmm he spent a lot of time in lunch rooms to not have a scrap of food.
He had cash and time why not buy lunch off the food wagon.
Did he just drink soda?

He carried rods to work but took nothing with him to Irving. Not a bag of dirty wash, or a toothbrush.

And now we have Gladys Johson saying he did not go to Irving that weekend he was at Beckley.  (This should throw LHO staying at Beckley under the bus)

Wes would not be driving LHO back from Irving if LHO did not stay Thursday night at Irving. (LHO may have gotten a lift to Irving was seen by neighbor but took bus back to Oak Cliff) 

"Where is your rider" messes up BWF's story.

I don't see Givens as giving a signal as much as much as wondering where Lee is, and Lee is usually riding with BWF but usually on a Monday.
Why would Givens be asking BWF where LHO is on a Friday?

Wouldn't Givens only ask if LHO had not shown up yet and he sees BWF so he asks him where his rider is. Thinking maybe BWF has seen LHO?
And then why would Wesley say, shout out, he had dropped him off by the door?
Actually when giving someone a ride it is proper to drop your passenger off near the door then you go and park where ever it is that you park. It is bad manners to make your guest walk several blocks.
Especially when they have to carry such a large package 

Thus "Where's your rider" was asked of BWF.
He dropped the lunch, gun sack, curtain rod carrying commie off at the TSBD door like a good car driving capitalist should.

Terry Martin
 
One thing I have wondered for some time: are we certain Ozzie was rooming anywhere in Dallas at this time?
 
What if he was back to staying with Marina at the Paine's in Irving (it was the address he gave IIRC) and rode in with BWF every day. Hence Givens question, "Where's your rider?"
 
Frazier drove home to Irving every night so why not take Ozzie along? Perhaps Lee only had the room at Marsalis while he was looking for work? Once he got the job (and a neighbor who could drive him) he moved back to Irving?

Bugsy makes a big deal as that Friday was the only time Ozzie walked ahead of BWF to the TSBD. What if that was the only day Frazier did not drive Ozzie in?

Ed Ledoux

If he was staying at the Paines or with BWF, he would not need to bring clothes home to get washed, thus no bags, no toothbrush and shaving kit necessary.
Now the press found Gladys and interviewed her, and according to her the roomer OH Lee was at the rooming house that weekend.
He did not go out of town.
Thus we have two different people.
One was at Beckley and one was at Irving.
The Beckley rooomer was not LHO.
The Irving lodger was.
Simple.

So we have the DPD figuring this out at 1:30-2 pm at Beckley.
They need to make this OH Lee into LHO.
They gather all items from room O, every last bit....except the mexican ashtray and matches, and the commies 'banana' republic 'peelings' probably with a United Fruit label on them.
But this is a give away as LHO does not smoke and would not need a Mexican ashtray and matches. (Aynesworth experiencing the  Brian Williams effect?)
But since every item is taken before a single picture is snapped we are not able to fully document what was or was not in that room.
Supposedly the items from Beckley were taken wrapped up in a sheet. And some in a pillow case?
We know at least a pair of binoculars jumped from the Beckley pile to the Irving pile on the DPD floor.
The photos don't lie, but the cops inventories did.

"Frazier drove home to Irving every night so why not take Ozzie along? Perhaps Lee only had the room at Marsalis while he was looking for work? Once he got the job (and a neighbor who could drive him) he moved back to Irving?"
Terry,
Because during the week Frazier was stooping Marina and fondling Lee's rifle too. Assembling and disassembling the sexy Italian bitch.
Buell was just using Marina to get to Lee's Carcano.

------------
From Cspan with BWF
WHEN YOU GOT HIRED YOU BECAME AWARE THAT THERE MIGHT STILL BE SOME OPENINGS AND YOU MUST
00:03:20
Unidentified Speaker
 
UNK>>...HAVE MENTIONED THAT TO YOUR SISTER? BECAUSE SHE SUPPOSEDLY MENTIONED TO RUTH PAYNE A FRIEND OF HERS. IS THAT HOW YOU REMEMBER IT?

BWF>> THE WAY I REMEMBER IT WAS I WAS WORKING QUITE A BIT OF OVER TIME. NEARLY EVERY DAY WE WERE WORKING OVER TIME. THERE WOULD BE SOME DAYS WHEN MR. SHELLY WOULD GIVE US A BREAK, BUT MY SISTER NOTICED THAT I WAS WORKING OVER TIME AND BY THE WAY, MY SISTER'S NAME WAS LACY RANDALL. SHE ASKED ME, ARE THEY DOING ANY HIRING? I SAID I DON'T KNOW. I'D HAVE TO ASK MR. SHELLY AND SEE WHAT HE SAYS AND SO I ASKED MR. SHELLY. I SAID ARE WE DOING ANY HIRING AND HE SAID, YES. WE'RE TAKING APPLICATIONS. SO MY SISTER USED TO BE WITH RUTH PAYNE AND SOME OF THE WOMEN RIGHT THERE IN THE IMMEDIATE NEIGHBORHOOD AND THEY WOULD GET TOGETHER SOMETIMES IN THE MORNING AND THEY WOULD HAVE COFFEE AND SOME TYPE OF -- COFFEE CAKE OR WHATEVER THEY HAD AND THEY WOULD SIT AROUND AND VISIT AND DRINK COFFEE OR TEA AND THAT'S WHERE MY SISTER TOLD MISS PAYNE THAT YES, THEY WERE TAKING APPLICATIONS AND SHE IN RETURN, MISS PAYNE TOLD -- THERE WAS A LADY LIVING WITH HER AT THAT TIME NAMED MARINA, AND HER HUSBAND WAS LEE OSWALD. SO SHE TOLD MAUREEN OSWALD AND SHE IN TURN TOLD LEE THAT HE MIGHT GO BY AND FILL OUT AN APPLICATION IF HE WAS STILL LOOKING FOR WORK.
...
BWF>> WELL, THE WAY I RECALLED, MY SISTER ASKED ME WERE THEY STILL DOING ANY HIRING AND THE GATHERINGS THAT SOMETIMES THE WOMEN DO IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, I GUESS SOMETHING MUST HAVE CAME UP ABOUT MARINA'S HUSBAND LOOKING FOR WORK. AND THAT'S WHEN MY SISTER ASKED ME AND I CHECKED WITH MR. SHELLY AND HE SAID YES THEY WERE AND THE INFORMATION GOT BACK TO MARINA MARINA TO MISS PAYNE AND LEE CAME BY AND FILLED OUT AN APPLICATION.
...
THE FIRST DAY I MET LEE OSWALD WAS THE DAY HE STARTED WORK AT THE DEPOSITORY. SO BEFORE THAT TIME, YOU HAD NOT EVEN HEARD HIS NAME. I DID NOT EVER HEAR HIS NAME AND I NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET HIM.
HE WASN'T ONE TO INITIATE A CONVERSATION, BUT HE WOULD ANSWER YOU AND ALL OF THE CHILDREN IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AT THAT TIME THAT LIVED AROUND THERE LIKED LEE. LEE WOULD PLAY WITH THEM A LOT OF TIMES IN THE EVENING, LATE IN THE EVENING IN MRS. PAYNE'S FRONT YARD. I KNOW MY LITTLE NIECES KNEW HIM. THEY KNEW WHO HE WAS. THEY BUT HE WAS THE MAN THAT LIVED AT MISS PAYNE'S AND HE PLAYED WITH SEVERAL CHILDREN IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD ALONG WITH HIS OWN CHILD.

UNK>>DID YOU MEET MARINA OR THE KIDS OR MRS. PAYNE AT ANY TIME BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION?

BWF>> NO.

UNK>> HOW DID THE RIDING BACK AND FORTH COME ABOUT?

BWF>> THE WAY THAT CAME ABOUT WAS THAT AFTER LEARNING THAT HIS WIFE MARINA OUT IN IRVING AND I ASKED HIM HOW DID YOU GET BACK AND FORTH? HE SAID I USUALLY GO OUT AND SEE MY WIFE ON THE WEEKENDS. AND I SAID WHY ARE YOU OUT THERE AND HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, RIDE THE BUS OR TAXI AND HOWEVER I CAN GET OUT THERE AND I TOLD HIM, I GO BACK AND FORTH EVERY DAY, AND ANY TIME YOU WANT TO GO OVER AND SEE YOUR WIFE ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TELL ME DURING THE DAY AND YOU CAN RIDE OUT TO IRVING WITH ME AND IF HE SPENT THE NIGHT YOU CAN RIDE BACK WITH ME THE NEXT MORNING AND ASKED WHAT OCCURRED ON THAT WAS THAT HE WOULD RIDE OUT TO IRVING WITH ME ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON. I WOULD DROP HIM OFF AND THEN I WOULD NOT SEE HIM AGAIN UNTIL MONDAY MORNING.

Yeah why not everyday, was it gas money?

UNK >> DID HE EVER OFFER TO BUY YOUR GAS NOW AND THEN?

BWF >> NO BECAUSE I NEVER ASKED HIM. HE LIVED LESS THAN A HALF A BLOCK. HIS WIFE AND HE LIVED A HALF A BLOCK FROM WHERE I LIVED AND I WAS GOING THERE, SO I WOULD JUST ALWAYS, IT TAKES THAT MUCH GAS TO GO TO WORK WHY CHARGE HIM? SOME PEOPLE WOULD, BUT I'M NOT THAT TYPE OF PERSON. IF I'M GOING SOMEWHERE MYSELF, WHY CHARGE SOMEONE?

UNK >> HE NEVER VOLUNTEERED EITHER, DID HE?

BWF >> I THINK HE MAY HAVE. HE ASKED A COUPLE OF TIMES AND I SAID IT WASN'T NECESSARY.

Lunch?

BWF >> I'D USUALLY HAVE MY LUNCH AT THE TEXAS BOOK DEPOSITORY BECAUSE I USUALLY CARRIED MY LUNCH. A FEW TIMES I WENT TO A DINER WHERE YOU COULD SIT DOWN AND IT IS NOW ON THE WEST END AND IT WAS PART OF THE SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY AND THE STATE BUILDING. THERE WAS A LITTLE DINER THERE AND YOU CAN GET SANDWICHES AND SO FORRING. A FEW TIMES I WALKED DOWN THERE BY MYSELF AND ATE LUNCH THERE, BUT MOST OF THE TIME I BROUGHT MY LUNCH AND SOME OF THE GUYS WOULD EAT THEIR LUNCH OUT ON THE DOCK. SOME WOULD EAT THEIR LUNCH IN THE BREAK ROOM, PLAYING DOMINOS OR CARDS. THERE WAS USUALLY SOMETHING GOING ON ALL OF THE TIME BECAUSE SOME OF THE GUYS LIKED TO PLAY DOMINOS AND DIFFERENT CARD GAMES.

UNK>> UP TO THE SECOND-FLOOR LUNCHROOM AT ALL?

BWF>> I DID GO UP AND EAT UP THERE A COUPLE OF TIMES, BUT THE LUNCHROOM WAS SMALL AND WE DIDN'T HAVE A LOTOF TABLES AND CHAIR ASKS A LOT OF TIMES THE WOMEN THAT WORKED IN THE DIFFERENT PUBLISHER'S OFFICE WERE IN THERE AND I DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS RIGHT TO TAKE A SEAT FROM SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM THEIR DESK. WE HAD A LOT OF PLACES TO SIT DOWN TO EAT DOWNSTAIRS. SOMETIMES I USED TO EAT UP THERE ON THE FIRST FLOOR AND SOMETIMES I USED TO EAT DOWN IN THE BASEMENT BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE I'D GET MY LUNCH. IT WAS NICE AND COOL DOWN THERE AND SOMETIMES IT WAS QUIET. IF I WANTED TO HAVE QUIET TIME IS EAT MY LUNCH. FOR A FEW MINUTES, AS I SAID, IT'S QUIET TIME TO YOURSELF. I TAKE THE BOOK AND I'D BE LOOKING AT A BOOK WHEN I WAS READING AND SOMETHING I WANTED TO READ IN THERE. I OFTEN LOOKED THROUGH THE BOOKS AND WE HAD A LOT OF PUBLISHERS FOR EVERYTHING FROM KINDERGARTEN THROUGH COLLEGE. UNFORTUNATELY, THERE WERE VERY FEW PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE INTERIOR OF THE BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING AND OF THOSE, HARDLY ANY ARE COLOR.
UNK>> DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE COLORS IN THE LUNCHROOM?
BWF>> NO, I DON'T. LIKE I SAID, I WAS ONLY UP THERE A COUPLE OF TIMES LIKE A COKE MACHINE AND I THINK THEY HAD A SNACK MACHINE IN THERE AND NOT REAL ON EYE CAN'T THINK OF MUCH ANYTHING ELSE THAT I CAN RECALL AT THIS TIME, BUT IT JUST HAD A FEW CHAIRS IN THERE AND TABLES AND IT WAS VERY SMALL.

...YES. THERE WAS A CATERING TRUCK THAT USED TO COME BY ON THE MORNING, ...BREAK TIME AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED IN THE BUILDING NOT ONLY PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THE HOUSE AND SOMETIMES PEOPLE WOULD COME DOWNSTAIRS AND THEY WOULD BUY THEIR LUNCH OFF OF THE CATERING TRUCK PLUS THEY WANTED FOR BREAK TIME. ...AND IF I REMEMBER, IT WAS INDUSTRIAL CATERING SERVICE.

UNK>> LEE HARVEY OSWALD TO AND FROM IRVING ON A FEW OCCASIONS BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION AND THAT WAS ALWAYS ON A FRIDAY AND THEN HE'D COME BACK WITH YOU ON MONDAY MORNINGS.
BWF >> YES, THAT IS CORRECT.
UNK>> DID HE EVER BRING HIS LUNCH WITH HIM THOSE MONDAY MORNINGS?
BWF>> HE MAY HAVE AND THEN HE MAY NOT HAVE HAVE. ? I'M NOT SURE DURING THE WEEK AND A COUPLE OF TIMES HE MAY HAVE BROUGHT HIS LUNCH, BUT I'M NOT REAL SURE.

UNK>> DID YOU EVER EAT LUNCH WITH HIM?
BWF>> NO, AS FAR AS HE AND I SAT DOWN, SOME PLACE OUT ON THE FIRST FLOOR THERE AND AS I SAID HE AND I -- NO! I DID EAT LUNCH A COUPLE OF TIMES IN THE BREAK ROOM WITH THE GUYS PLAYING CARDS AND DOMINOS AND IT WAS TOO NOISY FOR ME. THAT'S WHY I SAT OUT ON THE DOCK AND GO OUT IN THE BASEMENT AND EAT MY LUNCH FOR THE QUIET TIMES.

I THINK IT WAS A DAY OR TWO BEFORE TO HEAR PEOPLE TALK, I THINK HE SAID PRESIDENT KENNEDY WOULD COME TO THE HOUSE,    

What is with The House? Wes keeps calls the TSBD the Work House or the House.

THEY FOUND OUT THAT THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE WAS GOING TO BE COMING BY THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT. THEY SAID GOSH, WE GOT A CHANCE TO SEE THE PRESIDENT, AND AS THEY WERE TALKING THEN THEY ALL REALIZED THAT HE MAY COME BACK AFTER LUNCH BREAK OR AFTER LUNCH BREAK AND THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT WE WOULDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SEE THE PARADE. SO SOMEONE HAD GONE TO MR. SHELLY AND ASKED, ARE WE GOING TO GET TO SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE? AND THERE WAS -- I GUESS HE CHECKED WITH MR. TRULY AND MR. TRULY CHECKED WITH HIS BOSSES WHO WERE UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR AND THEY HAD COME BACK WITH THE REPLY THAT, YES, WE WOULD STOP AND EVERYONE COULD SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE. SO WE CONTINUED TO WORK AND THEN AT A CERTAIN TIME WE STOPPED AND EVERYONE GOT READY TO WATCH THE PARADE.

UNK>> THE DAY BEFORE, THURSDAY THE 21st LEE HARVEY OSWALD CAME TO YOU AND ASKED YOU WHAT?
BWF>> HE ASKED ME IF I WAS IN THE AREA WHERE WE WOULD BRING IT DOWN THAT WOULD BE CARRIED OUT WITH THE DIFFERENT LINE AND IT WAS PUT IN TOGETHER AND HE ASKED ME, HE SAID, CAN I RIDE HOME WITH YOU THIS AFTERNOON AND NOT THINKING ABOUT WHAT DAY IT WAS, I SAID SURE. AND THEN A FEW MINUTES LATER I LOOKED AT THE DATE ON THE INVOICE I WAS FILLING, AND I SAID TODAY'S NOT THURSDAY. SO WHEN I SAW HIM I SAID HEY, TODAY'S NOT FRIDAY. TODAY'S THURSDAY. HE SAID, I KNOW THAT, BUT HE SAID I NEED TO GO OUT TO IRVING. HE SAID THAT MARINA HAD MADE HIM SOME CURTAINS FOR HIS APARTMENT. HE STAYED OVER IN AN APARTMENT IN DALLAS DURING THE WEEK AND WOULD GO HOME WITH ME LIKE ON FRIDAY SO HE WAS GOING OUT TO PICK UP THE CURTAIN RODS TO PUT UP CURTAINS IN HIS APARTMENT.

UNK>> MARINA HAD MADE SOME CURTAINS FOR HIM.
BWF>> UH-HUH.
UNK>> WERE THE CURTAINS READY OR WAS HE JUST GOING TO PICK UP THE CURTAIN RODS OR --
BWF>> FROM THE WAY HE EXPLAINED IT THEY WERE READY AND HE WAS GOING GET THE CURTAIN RODS TO HANG THE CURTAINS.
UNK >> SO YOU THOUGHT, OKAY.
BWF>> UH-HUH.
UNK>> THINK FROM YOUR COMMISSION TESTIMONY YOU INDICATED YOU GUYS WOULD GET OFF WORK AT 4:45 OR SO? DID YOU WALK TOGETHER OUT TO YOUR CAR?
BWF>> LIKE ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON?
UNK>> NO, ON THURSDAY AFTERNOON. THE DAY BEFORE, BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT TAKING OSWALD BACK TO IRVING.
BWF>> OKAY. I'M SURE WE DID BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY HE WAS GOING GET IN THE CAR WITH ME TO GO HOME BECAUSE IT WAS, LIKE I SAY, SEVERAL HUNDRED YARDS NORTH OF OUR BUILDING, AND I WOULD GO DOWN FROM THE PARKING LOT THERE AND I WOULD GO DOWN THE CONTINENTAL STREET TO 35.
UNK>> THIS WILL BE A LITTLE THING ALSO, BUT LET ME SEE IF I CAN TWEAK YOUR MEMORY A BIT. DID YOU SEE WHAT HE WAS WEARING? DID HE HAVE SHORT SLEEVES OR DID HE HAVE A JACKET ON?
BWF>> NO, I DON'T REMEMBER IT, BUT IT WAS IN NOVEMBER, AND WE WERE WEARING JACKETS OR LONG SLEEVE SHIRTS THEN. OR WHATEVER THAT SOMEONE WANTED TO WEAR.

UNK>> DID HE HAVE ANYTHING WITH HIM OR WAS HE CARRYING ANYTHING OR WERE HIS HANDS EMPTY?

BWF>> YOU WANT TO KNOW IF HE CARRIED ANYTHING FROM THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY THURSDAY. AND THE ANSWER IS NO.

UNK>> HOW CERTAIN ARE YOU? PRETTY CERTAIN. DIDN'T HAVE A BOX OR A PACKAGE OR ANYTHING?

BWF >> I DIDN'T NOTICE HE HAD A BOX OR A PACKAGE.
...
ON FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 1963, LEE CAME DOWN TO THE HOUSE AND THE FIRST TIME I NOTICED IT, HE WAS ALREADY DOWN TO THE HOUSE WAS THAT HE WAS LOOKING IN ONE OF THE WINDOWS INTO THE KITCHEN AREA. MY SISTER SAID WHO'S THAT? AND I SAID THAT'S LEE. AND MY SISTER WAS FINISHING MY LUNCH. I'LL BE OUT IN A FEW MINUTES. I'M GOING TO GO BRUSH MY TEETH AND I'LL BE RIGHT OUT. WHEN I GO OUT TO THE CAR, AND WE GOT IN THE CAR, AND AS I GOT IN THE CAR I GLANCED OVER MY SHOULDER AND THERE WAS A PACKAGE LAYING ON THE BACKSEAT AND I SAID WHAT'S THAT? HE SAID, THAT'S THE CURTAIN RODS I TOLD YOU ABOUT. I SAID OKAY. 

YES. IT WAS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER DAY. I KNEW IT WAS FRIDAY AND UNLESS WE WERE WORKING OVER TIME AND SOMETIMES WE DID WORK SATURDAYS, BUT MOST OF THE TIME YOU KNEW WHEN YOU GOT OFF THAT AFTERNOON, YOU WOULD BE OFF MONDAY MORNING AND IT'S NO DIFFERENT TODAY THAN IT WAS IN 1963, A LOT OF PEOPLE FORWARD TO FRIDAYS.
UNK>> WHEN YOU ARRIVED, YOU TOLD THIS PART OF THE STORY MANY TIMES THAT YOU SAT THERE IN THE CAR AND YOU WERE REVVING UP THE ENGINE A BIT AND OSWALD GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND HE MUST HAVE REACHED INTO THE BACKSEAT AND GRABBED HIS PACKAGE AND OFF HE WENT TO THE DEPOSITORY AND YOU SAW HIM WALKING AHEAD OF YOU. WAS THAT DIFFERENT THAN HIS ORDINARY ROUTINE?
BWF>> WE DID WALK TOGETHER ON OCCASION. ON THAT PARTICULAR MORNING WE GOT THERE A LITTLE BIT EARLIER AND THE GAUGE ON MY VEHICLE THAT I WAS DRIVING AT THAT TIME, I SAID, WELL I'M JUST GOING TO SIT HERE FOR A FEW MINUTES AND CHARGED MY BATTERY BECAUSE ON THIS CAR THAT I WAS DRIVING AT THE TIME, SOMETIMES WHEN I WOULD GET DOWN THERE AND WORK LATE AND SOMETIMES IT WOULDN'T START AND I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A JUMP AND SOME TIMES I WOULD JUMP WITH SOMEONE ELSE AND BILLY LOVE WAS EMPLOYED THERE AT THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY. HE DID THE RECEIVING AND SHIPPING. 

So Billy had a car and jumped Wes's car?

UNK>> AND HE LOOKED KIND OF LIKE OSWALD, DIDN'T HE?
BWF>> THE ONLY THING THEY HAD IN COMMON WAS THEY BOTH HAVE A HIGH FOREHEAD. IF YOU WOULD PUT LEE OSWALD BESIDE BILLY, YOU WOULD HAVE -- ONE WAS SLENDER AND THE OTHER, BILLY, WAS SHORT AND STOCKY, AND THEIR PERSONALITIES WERE NOTHING ALIKE. THEY WERE TOTALLY THE OPPOSITE. BILLY LOVELADY, HE WAS A BIG KIDDER. A REAL HAPPY-GO-LUCKY GUY. LEE WAS VERY QUIET AND RESERVED.
UNK>> LEE WAS ABOUT 5'9" OR SO. HOW TALL WAS BILLY?
BWF>> I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW HOW TALL HE WAS, BUT I WOULD SAY BILLY WAS PROBABLY MAYBE IN THE 5'2", 5'3" AREA, AND I'M NOT SURE ABOUT WHETHER THAT'S CORRECT OR NOT, BUT MAYBE 5'4" AT THE MOST, PROBABLY.

...BILLY TOLD ME THAT, YES, HE WAS AWARE THAT THERE WAS A CERTAIN FACIAL SIMILARITY BETWEEN HE AND OSWALD AND HE SAID, GARY, SOME OF THE GUYS IN OUR CREW PURPOSELY CALLED LEE BILLY AND THEY CALLED ME LEE, AND HE SAID I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY AS WELL, BUT OSWALD DIDN'T LIKE IT AT ALL. IT REALLY GOT HIM HACKED OFF. DOES THAT RING A BELL AT ALL?

Ed Ledoux

BWF>> ...BUT IT WAS A LITTLE UNUSUAL TO ME. BUT THEN I JUST THOUGHT THAT THE MOTORCYCLE POLICEMEN THAT WERE ESCORTING THE PRESIDENT'S CAR, THERE WAS SEVERAL OF THEM, AND THEY WERE -- BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING PRETTY CLOSE TO GETTING ONTO THE FREEWAY. AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY BLOCKS THEY HAD GONE IN THIS PARADE, BUT THEY WERE KIND OF CLOWNING AROUND, CUTTING THEIR MOTORCYCLES ON AND OFF AND MAKING THEM BACKFIRE AND SO FORTH. I THOUGHT THAT WAS A LITTLE UNUSUAL, BUT NOW THAT I'VE HAD TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT. BUT AT THE TIME BEING, IT DIDN'T SEEM ANYTHING UNUSUAL TO ME.
UNK >> SO THIS IS BEFORE THE SHOOTING?
BWF >> YES.  
UNK >> AND THERE WERE POLICE MOTORCYCLES IN THE AREA THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN PART OF A MOTORCADE AND YOU HEARD THEM BACKFIRING?
BWF >> YES. NOW THE MOTORCYCLES THAT I HEARD BACKFIRING WERE MOTORCYCLE POLICEMEN. IT WASN'T A SPECTATOR OR ANYONE ON A MOTORCYCLE, IT WASN'T THAT. THE ONLY MOTORCYCLES THAT WERE ACTUALLY RUNNING, AND THEY WERE CUTTING THEM OFF AND CUTTING THEM BACK ON AND BAKINGE MAKING THEM BACKFIRE WAS THE POLICEMEN.
UNK>> AND SO THEY WERE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE? WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WERE DOING THAT?
BWF>> I HAVE NO IDEA.
 
UNK>> OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER AN AMBULANCE IN THE PLAZA? BEFORE THE MOTORCADE CAME BY?
BWF>> NO.

UNK>>YOU PROBABLY WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED IT. THE AMBULANCE WAS GONE A GOOD FIVE MINUTES BEFORE KENNEDY CAME BY. SO THAT TELLS ME THAT YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T GET OUT ON THE STEPS UNTIL ABOUT 12:25 AND KENNEDY CAME BY AT 12:30. SO, OKAY. AT SOME POINT YOU MUST HAVE BECOME AWARE THAT THE PRESIDENT IS GETTING PRETTY CLOSE. I WOULD ASSUME THAT YOU HEARD THAT THE CROWD WAS CHEERING, I ASSUME YOU COULD HAVE HEARD SOME OF THAT NOISE AND THEN FINALLY THE MOTORCADE TURNED ONTO HOUSTON STREET AND STARTED COMING UP THE STREET TOWARDS YOU. TAKE IT FROM THERE, WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER AND WHAT DID YOU SEE, WHAT DID YOU HEAR?

BWF>> THE ONLY THING I REMEMBER IS SEEING THAT THE CAR IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT AND HIS WIFE AND JOHN CONLEY WAS RIDING. I WAS JUST SO CAPTIONED BY THAT, BECAUSE I HAD NEVER GOTTEN THAT CLOSE TO AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT, THAT I COULD ACTUALLY SEE. AND I WAS OBSERVING ALL THE THINGS RIGHT AROUND THE CAR IN WHICH HE WAS RIDING. AND THAT'S ABOUT ALL -- I WAS JUST WATCHING. THE PEOPLE SEEMED TO BE VERY HAPPY AND VERY RESPONSIVE. BEFORE HE GOT THERE, AND THEN ALL THE WAVING AND SO FORTH THAT POLITICIANS DO AND PEOPLE TRY AND GET NOTICED. I GUESS I WAS JUST CAUGHT UP IN THE MOMENT AT THAT TIME AND I WAS SO EXCITED TO BE ABLE TO WITNESS THAT.

UNK>> SO THE CAR IS COMING UP HOUSTON STREET AND IT MAKES A LEFT HAND TURN RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BOOK DEPOSITORY DOORWAY. SO AS YOU'RE LOOKING STRAIGHT OUT, THE CAR IS COMPLETING THE TURN. HOW LONG AFTER THE CAR COMPLETED THE TURN AND STARTED MOVING AWAY FROM YOU DID THE FIRST SHOT HAPPEN?
BWF >> IT WASN'T -- IT WASN'T VERY LONG. THERE WAS A SHOT, AND AS I SAID EARLIER, FROM LISTENING TO THE MOTORCYCLES THAT WAS LEADING THE PRESIDENT'S CAR, THAT HAD BEEN BACKFIRING, AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WAS A BACKFIRE FROM A MOTORCYCLE.
UNK>> SO IT SOUNDED PRETTY MUCH LIKE THE BACKFIRES?
BWF>> YES. BUT THEN SHORTLY AFTER, THEY WAS TWO MORE. BY THAT TIME, THERE WAS REALLY CHAOS. THERE WAS PEOPLE RUNNING AND YOU KNEW SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT. FROM WHERE I WAS SITTING, YOU COULDN'T SEE BECAUSE THERE WAS PEOPLE STANDING OUT ON THE CURB THERE TO THE STREET THAT WAS GOING DOWN TO THE UNDERPASS. SO THEREFORE, I COULDN'T ACTUALLY SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE PRESIDENT'S CAR... AND MY BEST SHOT OF HIM -- OR MY BEST VIEW, LET'S REPHRASE THAT. MY BEST VIEW OF HE AND WAS NO ONE IN FRONT OF US, AND YOU HAD A VERY CLEAR VIEW. BUT AFTER THEY PASSED, AND DROPPED OUT OF SIGHT, I COULDN'T SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON. ALL I -- AFTER I DISCOVERED IT WAS SOMEONE SHOOTING. THERE WAS PEOPLE RUNNING AND FALLING DOWN AND THERE WAS JUST A MASS CONFUSION OF WHAT WAS GOING

Greg Parker
 
Ed, any anomalous words or phrases - and there are quite a few - in the transcriptions for Frazier's HSCA interview come down to the very poor quality of the recording. So when you see "house" (as one example)  where it doesn't seem to belong, it is just a problem with the transcription. Whoever did it, has just taken a best guess, and gone with that, even if it doesn't make sense.

There is a slim hope that we can get the takes cleaned up. There is a member who has been chasing that up...

Ed Ledoux

>> WELL, AFTER THE FIRST SHOT AND THEN WITH THE SECOND AND THIRD, I WALKED DOWN ON THE STEPS TO WHERE BILLY WAS ORIGINALLY STANDING, BECAUSE IF MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECT, BILLY AND MR. SHELLY HAD GONE DOWN THE STREET THAT RAN RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DEPOSITORY THERE. THEY HAD WALKED DOWN THERE. AND THE LADY I WAS STANDING BY, WE JUST STAYED RIGHT THERE ON THE STEPS. AND THEN PEOPLE -- SOMEBODY COME RUNNING BY AND SAID THEY SHOT THE PRESIDENT. WELL, BY THAT TIME IT WAS REALLY REALLY -- REALLY CHAOS, AND I THOUGHT THE BEST THING TO DO WAS TO STAY STILL WHERE THEY COULD SEE YOU. BECAUSE BY THAT TIME THERE WAS POLICEMEN ALL AROUND AND THEY HAD THEIR WEAPONS DRAWN, AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE BEST JUST TO STAY STILL.
>> HOW LONG DID YOU STAY ON THE STEPS?
>> OH, A FEW MINUTES. AND I MAY HAVE WALKED A SHORT WAY DOWN THE STREET, YOU KNOW, IN FRONT OF THE TEXAS SCHOOL DEPOSITORY.
>> IT'S USUALLY REFERRED TO AS THE ELM STREET EXTENSION.
>> I MAY HAVE WALKED A SHORT DISTANCE DOWN THERE, AND THEN I THOUGHT MAYBE IT WAS BEST I TURN AROUND AND GO BACK WHERE I WAS. ,,,AND SO I REALIZED THAT I HADN'T EATEN MY LUNCH. I KNOW THIS MAY SOUND STRANGE, BUT I WAS HUNGRY. A VERY YOUNG BOY, YOU'RE USUALLY HUNGRY, SO I WENT BACK INTO THE BUILDING, AND I HAD GONE DOWN TO THE BASEMENT, AND I SAT DOWN AND I WAS EATING MY LUNCH, AND THERE WAS SEVERAL PLAINCLOTHES DETECTIVES DETECTIVES, AND I REMEMBER A POLICE -- UNIFORMED POLICEMAN, HE CAME BY AND ASKED ME HOW LONG I HAD BEEN THERE AND HAD I SEEN ANYBODY, AND I SAYS, NO, I DIDN'T SEE ANYBODY UNUSUAL DOWN HERE. I SAID, I HEARD SOMEBODY OVER -- THERE WAS TWO WAYS YOU COULD GO DOWN INTO THE BASEMENT. IT WAS BY A BELT THAT WENT UP TO THE METER WHERE I PUT THE POSTAGE ON THE PACKAGES, AND THEN RIGHT BY WHERE THE FREIGHT BILL OF LADINGS, THERE WAS A STAIRWAY ENTRANCE THERE.

Terry Martin

Ed, your discussing of the artifacts belonging to Oswald "recovered" at the Beckley house reminds me so much of the Lincoln case a century before.

Then, George Atzerodt had supposedly checked into the Willard Hotel - in order to kill Vice President Johnson who was residing there - but the only artifacts they "recovered" from Atzerodt's room were the slippers, dressing gown, and checkbook belonging to John Wilkes Booth.

Weird how Booth loaned Atzerodt all his personal stuff to spend the night in the Willard.

Oh, and need I mention these items were what ties the diminutive German to Booth's "gang"?

How convenient that was huh? And the guys in Dallas a century later used the same lame technique.

Ed Ledoux

UNK>> DID YOU SEE LEE OSWALD AT THIS TIME AFTER THE ASSASSINATION?
BWF>> NO.
UNK>> DID YOU HEAR SUBSEQUENTLY HOW HE LEFT THE BUILDING?
BWF>> THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF RUMORS.WHEN WE WERE OUTSIDE THE BUILDING BEFORE WE HAD GONE IN, I REMEMBER SEEING THE TOP AREA AND WALKED UP THE STREET BESIDE THE TEXAS DEPOSITORY BUILDING. THERE WERE SO MANY THINGS GOING ON, AND I SAW HIM, HE WENT ACROSS HOUSTON STREET, AND I THOUGHT HE MAY HAVE BEEN GOING TO GET HIM A SANDWICH OR SOMETHING, SO I REALLY DIDN'T THINK ANYTHING ABOUT IT. AND I LOST HIM IN THE CROWD. AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED FROM THERE. 

Wes knows where Lee was, he sees him coming from the rear of the warehouse and walking across to the sandwich shop.

UNK>> HOW LONG AFTER THE ASSASSINATION DO YOU THINK THIS WAS?
BWF>>PROBABLY -- FIVE TO TEN MINUTES, PROBABLY.
UNK>> SO YOU REMEMBER SEEING HIM BRIEFLY COMING DOWN HOUSTON STREET ALONG THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING?
BWF>> YES.
UNK>> SO THAT TOLD YOU HE MUST HAVE GONE OUT BY THE BACK DOOR NEXT TO THE LOADING DOCK?
BWF>> THE LOADING DOCK. THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
UNK>>DID YOU SEE HIM CROSS HOUSTON STREET?
BWF>> HE CROSSED HOUSTON STREET AND THEN STARTED ACROSS ELM STREET. AND I TURNED BECAUSE SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING TO ME, AND I TURNED TO ANSWER THEM, AND THEN WHEN I TURNED BACK AND LOOKED THAT DIRECTIONS,, HE WAS GONE. 

Wes saw LHO cross to the wrong side of the street to get on a bus.

UNK>> COULD HE HAVE COME OUT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE DEPOSITORY?
BWF>> NO.

Like Wes was guarding the door, Okay so he says LHO did not come out the front door, he came from the back loading dock 15 minutes after the shooting when the rear was being watched as we know and no one else saw LHO come out from there at that time. Maybe he went out the West door where the action was happening back in the railyard/parking lot. Then walked back to the rear entrance and was not allowed back in.

UNK>>NO. HOW FAR AWAY FROM HIM DO YOU THINK YOU WERE WHEN YOU SAW HIM?
BWF>> THE CLOSEST I GOT TO HIM WHEN HE WAS WALKING UP THE -- ALONG THE SIDE OF THE TEXAS DEPOSITORY COMING FROM THE DOCK AREA WAS PROBABLY 10, 12 FEET.
UNK>> DO YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT HIM? DID HE LOOK --
BWF>> NO, HE DIDN'T LOOK ANY DIFFERENT OR ACT ANY DIFFERENT THAN HE DID. THERE WAS SO MANY PEOPLE AND SO MUCH CHAOS AND EVERYTHING ALL AROUND BY THEN THAT -- [ LOST AUDIO ]
BWF>> THEY ASKED ME, HAD I SEEN ANYONE COME DOWN INTO THE BASEMENT WHERE I WAS THERE OR DID I SEE ANYONE GO UP THE STAIRWAY THERE BY THE BELT, AND I TOLD THEM, I SAID, NO, SIR. I TOLD THEM, I DID HEAR SOMEBODY OVER ON THE STAIRWAY BUT I NEVER DID SEE ANYBODY. I HEARD SOMEBODY OVER THERE BUT I COULDN'T SEE ANYBODY. SO IT WAS -- SO I DON'T KNOW, BUT MAYBE IT WAS JUST ONE OF THE INVESTIGATORS OR POLICEMEN, YOU KNOW, IN THE SEARCHING OF THE BUILDING.
UNK>> I HAD A QUESTION HERE AND IT WENT AWAY. OH, HAD YOU SEEN ANYONE IN THE BUILDING THAT DAY THAT YOU DIDN'T RECOGNIZE?
BWF>> NO.
UNK>> NO STRANGE FACES?
BWF>>NO STRANGE FACES.
UNK>> AT SOME POINT, THEN, YOU MUST HAVE THOUGHT, WHAT REST OF THE DAY? AM I SUPPOSED TO STAY HERE AND WORK? ARE WE DISMISSED, WHAT DO WE DO? WHAT DID YOU DO?
BWF>> AFTER I ATE MY LUNCH, I WENT BACK UP STAIRS, AND AT THAT TIME ON THE FIRST FLOOR THERE, PEOPLE WERE MILLING AROUND, PEOPLE THAT WORKED IN THE BUILDING THERE, AND WERE TALKING AND EVERYTHING, AND MR. SHELLY AND I HAD -- IF YOU CAME -- IF YOU WOULD HAVE ENTERED THE TEXAS DEPOSITORY BUILDING BY THE STEPS ON WHICH I WAS STANDING WATCHING THE PARADE, WHEN YOU COME INTO THE BUILDING THERE, TO YOUR RIGHT WOULD BE AN ELEVATOR GOING UP TO THE PUBLISHER'S OFFICE. AND IF YOU WOULD HAVE COME STRAIGHT THROUGH THE DOUBLE DOORS THERE, THEN YOU WOULD BE -- AND RIGHT TO YOUR RIGHT WAS MR. TOOLEY'S OFFICE, AND THERE WAS A COUNTER THERE THAT BY THE TIME TEACHERS WOULD COME FOR WILL CALL OR PICK UP A TEXTBOOK, AND WE HAD THE WILL CALLS LAYING RIGHT THERE. THEY WOULD SAY, HERE, A WILL CALL, THEY'LL BE BY TO PICK THIS UP SHORTLY. I WOULD GO PULL IT, BRING IT BACK UP THERE AND HE WOULD CHECK IT BEFORE LETTING THE TEACHERS HAVE IT. SO MR. TRULEY'S OFFICE RIGHT THERE WAS FIRST, AND THEN RIGHT NEXT TO HIS WAS MR. SHELLY'S, AND IN THAT AREA RIGHT THERE IS WHERE WE ALL GROUPED TOGETHER THERE AND WE HAD A ROLL CALL.
UNK>> YOU AND THE OTHER GUYS WHO WERE ORDER FILLERS?
BWF>> YES. WHOEVER WORKED IN THE WAREHOUSE THERE, WHETHER IT WAS ORDER FILLER OR PACKER OR WHATEVER THE FUNCTION WAS. THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED UP IN THE PUBLISHER'S OFFICE, I'M SURE THEY HAD ALL THE ROLL CALL. BUT THE WAREHOUSE HAD THEIRS RIGHT OUTSIDE SHELLY AND TRULY'S OFFICE.
UNK>> TRULY AND SHELLY WERE THERE?
BWF>> YES.
UNK>> DID THEY ACTUALLY READ OFF NAMES, OR DID THEY JUST ASK YOU GUYS, WAS ANYBODY MISSING?
BWF>> NO, THEY READ NAMES OFF AND YOU HAD TO ANSWER.
UNK>> WHO WAS MISSING?
BWF>> THE ONLY PERSON MISSING WAS LEE OSWALD.  

Where was Givens and others not allowed in during the roll call. 
Did Wes speak up and say he just saw Lee Oswald outside and he might not be able to get back in???? 
Did he speak up for his rider???
Huh Wesley?
I guess not, thanks buddy! 

UNK>> LET'S GO BACK TO THE ROLL CALL. OSWALD WAS UNACCOUNTED FOR.
BWF>> YES.
UNK>> WHAT DID YOU GUYS ALL THINK OF THAT?
BWF>> AT FIRST I DIDN'T THINK ANYTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE MIGHT HAVE --AS I SAID EARLIER, HE MIGHT HAVE WALKED OVER, BECAUSE IN SOME OF THE BUILDINGS AROUND THERE, THERE WAS PLACES THAT YOU COULD GET SANDWICHES. AND I THOUGHT HE MAY HAVE WALKED OVER THERE AND DUE TO WHAT HAD HAPPENED EARLIER, AND I THOUGHT MAYBE HE WAS -- HE HAD GOT TIRED AND WANTED A SANDWICH OR SOMETHING AND HE WOULD PROBABLY BE BACK SHORTLY. BECAUSE NOTHING WAS MADE OF IT AT FIRST WHEN HE WASN'T THERE. 

Did you tell Shelly or anyone this Wesley?

UNK>> OKAY, SO THEN WHAT HAPPENED? WERE YOU GUYS TOLD TO GO HOME FOR THE DAY?
BWF>> HECKTOR, WE HAD THE ROLL CALL, AND WE STAYED THERE FOR A SHORT TIME. I DON'T RECALL HOW MANY MINUTES IT WAS, BUT WHEN THEY REALIZED LEE WASN'T COMING BACK, MR. TRULY -- MR. SHELLY GOT THE OKAY FROM MANAGEMENT UP STAIRS OFF THE SECOND FLOOR THAT DUE TO WHAT HAD HAPPENED THAT DAY THAT WE WERE GOING TO SHUT DOWN AND CALL IT A DAY. AND THAT'S WHAT WE DID.  

So its Friday and your rider would normally be going to Irving with you for the weekend stay... So you said nothing about Lee to anyone and then ditched him? Thanks Buddy!

UNK>> DURING THE ROLL CALL, YOU MENTIONED TRULY WAS THERE.
BWF>> YES.
UNK>> DO YOU REMEMBER HIM SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT HAVING SEEN OSWALD?
BWF>>I DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING, BUT I THINK I HEARD OR READ SOMEWHERE WHERE MR. TRULY WAS WITH SOMEONE SEARCHING THE BUILDING, AND I THINK THEY HAD SEEN LEE IN THE LUNCHROOM.
UNK>> THAT EVENT HAPPENED, AND THAT EVENT HAPPENED WITHIN A MINUTE OR TWO OF THE ASSASSINATION. SO THE ROLL CALL TOOK PLACE WHEN? HOW LONG AFTERWARDS DID THAT HAPPEN?
BWF>> ROLL CALL WAS PROBABLY SOMEWHERE, I'D SAY, PROBABLY 30, 45 MINUTES AFTER THAT.
UNK>> OKAY.SO --
BWF>>BUT I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY HOW LONG AFTERWARDS THE ROLL CALL WAS, BUT I'D SAY 20 TO 30 MINUTES AFTER ASSASSINATION WE ACTUALLY HAD A ROLL CALL.    
UNK>>SO IN THIS 30 TO 45-MINUTE PERIOD YOU WERE JUST HANGING OUT, WONDERING WHAT TO DO AND WHAT WAS GOING ON?
BWF>> YES.
UNK>> AFTER THE ROLL CALL, THEN, THE DECISION WAS MADE TO CALL IT A DAY.
BWF>> YES.
UNK>> WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER YOU HAD LEARNED THAT PRESIDENT KENNEDY HAD DIED?
BWF>>THAT WAS BEFORE, BECAUSE WHEN I HAD LEFTD AND WAS ON MY WAY HOME, THAT'S WHEN I LEARNED HE WAS PRONOUNCED DEAD OUTSIDE THE HOSPITAL, AND BY THAT TIME, THE NEWSCHANNELS WERE -- EVERYBODY WAS TRYING TO REPORT WHAT HAD HAPPENED THERE THAT DAY.
UNK>> OKAY. NOW, THIS WAS A FRIDAY. NORMALLY YOU WOULD TAKE OSWALD WITH YOU ON FRIDAY, BUT NOT THIS DAY. WHAT HAPPENED? DID YOU EXPECT TO BE TAKING HIM HOME THAT AFTERNOON?
BWF>> NO. HE HAD PHONED ME EARLIER WHEN I ASKED HIM WHY HE WAS GOING OUT ON THURSDAY RATHER THAN FRIDAY, AND THAT'S WHEN HE TOLD ME HE WAS GETTING CURTAIN RODS TO HANG CURTAINS FOR HIS DEPARTMENT. HE TOLD ME HE WOULDN'T BE GOING HOME WITH ME THAT DAY.

WTH? Phoned you and said nah I'm good, got some work to do on the new place??

UNK>> AND DID THIS STRIKE YOU AS BEING UNUSUAL?
BWF>> NO, NOT AT THE TIME BEING. BECAUSE I SAY NOTHING UNUSUAL BECAUSE OUR CONVERSATIONS WERE MAINLY ABOUT WORK WHILE WE WERE WORKING, AND HE NEVER HAD GIVEN ME THE IMPRESSION THAT HE HAD LIED TO ME, SO, THEREFORE, IT WAS -- I DIDN'T HAVE ANY REASON TO THINK ANYTHING WAS UNUSUAL.

Ed Ledoux

UNK>> OKAY. YOU'RE IN YOUR CAR, YOU HEAR ON THE RADIO THAT PRESIDENT KENNEDY HAS BEEN PRONOUNCED DEAD.
 
BWF>> YES.
 
UNK>> YOU'RE ON YOUR WAY BACK HOME TO IRVING.
 
BWF>> YES.
 
UNK>> WHEN YOU GOT HOME, WHO WAS THERE? YOUR SISTER, WAS SHE THERE WITH THE KIDS?
 
BWF>>WELL, I DIDN'T GO DIRECTLY HOME. WHAT I DID WAS I STOPPED BY THE HOSPITAL WHERE MY STEPFATHER -- HE AND MY MOTHER WERE UP VISITING MY SISTER AND HER HUSBAND AND CHILDREN, AND HE HAD HAD A HEART ATTACK. I KNOW HE HAD SEVERAL HEART ATTACKS BEFORE HE PASSED AWAY, BUT HE WAS IN THERE AND THEY WERE TREATING HIM, I THINK, FOR HEART FAILURE.
 
UNK>> IN IRVING. OKAY. HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND THERE AT THE HOSPITAL BEFORE YOU WENT HOME?
 
BWF>> WELL, I HAD ONLY BEEN THERE A SHORT TIME -- BY THE WAY, I DIDN'T GO DIRECTLY HOME AFTER I LEFT THERE. I WAS THERE A SHORT TIME, AND THE NURSE CAME INTO THE ROOM BECAUSE A NURSE EARLIER HAD ASKED ME -- THEY WERE GIVING HIM HIM -- I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT WAS GLUCOSE OR WHAT THEY WERE GIVING HIM, SHE ASKED ME TO COUNT THE DROPS AND SHE WOULD BE BACK IN A MINUTE. I KNOW THE NURSE CAME IN, NOT THE ONE WHO ASKED ME TO CHECK THE DROPS PER MINUTE THAT HE WAS GETTING ON THE MEDICATION THAT THEY WERE GIVING HIM, BUT SHE SAID, YOU HAVE A PHONE CALL. AND I SAID, WELL, JUST PATCH IT TO THE ROOM AND I'LL GET IT. I THOUGHT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN MY MOTHER OR SOMEBODY CALLING TO CHECK ON MY STEPFATHER. AND SHE SAID, WELL, SHE SAYS, WE CAN'T DO THAT. YOU'LL HAVE TO COME OUT HERE TO THE NURSE'S STATION AND TAKE THE CALL. WELL, I OPENED THE DOOR AND PROCEEDED TO THE NURSE'S STATION, AND AT THAT TIME, I WAS MET SUDDENLY BY TWO DETECTIVES FROM THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT. THEY WERE DETECTIVE RHODES AND DETECTIVE STOVALL. THEY PROCEEDED TO FRISK ME AND CHECK ME, AND I WAS TOTALLY SURPRISED BECAUSE I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS WAS BEING DONE TO ME. AND AFTER IT CATCHES ME BY SURPRISE, HE TOLD ME THEY WERE TAKING ME TO THE DOWNTOWN OFFICE. AND WE -- THEY WERE PARKED OUT CLOSE TO MY CAR, AND THEY HAD ALREADY BEEN SEARCHING IN MY CAR BECAUSE I REMEMBER LOOKING IN THE BACKSEAT. THE BACKSEAT HAD BEEN PULLED OUT, AND I ASKED HIM, I SAID, WHAT YOU BEEN DOING IN MY CAR? AND THEY SAID, WELL, WE'VE BEEN SEARCHING YOUR CAR.

Cops get in through that dang broken rear door?.. should have got that fixed Wes! HEY DID THEY HAVE A  WARRANT? Hehe
 
UNK>> THAT WOULD PUT IT ABOUT 2:30, QUARTER TO 3:00 AT THE LATEST.
 
BWF>> I DON'T KNOW EXACT TIME. LIKE I SAY, I WASN'T LOOKING AT THE TIME.
 
UNK>> HOW DID AT THE COME UP WITH YOUR NAME SO FAST? DID THEY EVER TELL YOUTHAT? FIRST OF ALL, DID THEY TELL YOU THAT BACK THEN OR HAVE YOU SUBSEQUENTLY LEARNED FROM THEM HOW THEY GOT YOUR NAME?
BWF>> I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY GOT MY NAME, BUT I KNOW THEY HAD BEEN OUT TO MY SISTER'S HOME IN IRVING BEFORE THEY COME TO THE HOSPITAL.
 
UNK>>SO THEY LEARNED FROM LYNNIE WHERE YOU WERE.
 
BWF>> I THINK I CALLED HER ONCE I GOT TO THE HOSPITAL FROM THE PHONE IN THE ROOM. I THINK I CALLED HER AND TOLD HER I WAS IN THE HOSPITAL AND I WAS GOING TO STAY HERE A WHILE. I DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME THAT ALL THIS OTHER WAS GOING ON, AND BECAUSE -- I REMEMBER THEY DID GO OUT TO THE HOUSE BEFORE COMING UP TO THE HOSPITAL.
 
UNK>> IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOUR MEMORY MIGHT HAVE DISTORTED THE TIMES A BIT, BECAUSE THIS SEEMS AWFULLY FAST, AND I WONDER IF SOME OF THESE THINGS MIGHT HAVE TAKEN PLACE LATER IN THE AFTERNOON THAN YOU'RE REMEMBERING.
 
BWF>> I COULD BE WRONG, BUT I DON'T THINK SO, GARY, BECAUSE I LEFT WORK AND I HEARD ABOUT THE PRESIDENT BEING ANNOUNCED DEAD, AND AT THAT TIME THE AREA WAS CONGESTED WITH TRAFFIC AND NOW THE POPULATION IS MUCH GREATER IN THE DALLAS AREA THAN IT WAS THEN. AND I REMEMBER GOING OUT TO THE HOSPITAL THERE, AND I WASN'T THERE VERY LONG. 10 TO 15 MINUTES. HOW THEY GOT MY NAME AND HOW THEY CAUGHT ON TO ME, I DON'T KNOW.
 
UNK>> YOU WALKED INTO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT PROBABLY ABOUT 2:00. SO SOMETIME AFTER 2:00 IS WHEN THEY LEARNED THAT HE WAS A DEPOSITORY EMPLOYEE. THEY COULD ONLY HAVE LEARNED ABOUT YOU FROM HIM, I WOULD THINK, UNLESS -- WAS THERE ANYONE ELSE IN THE DEPOSITORY WHO KNEW THAT OSWALD RODE TO AND FROM WORK WITH YOU SOMETIMES?
BWF>> BILLY AND MR. SHELLY KNEW.
 
...I WAS THERE QUITE SOMETIME. THEY SAID THAT ONE TIME THEY WERE TAKING ME HOME AND THEY STARTED OUT STEMMINS FREEWAY AND PROBABLY GOT TO SOME AREA AROUND ELMWOOD OR MOCKINGBIRD AND THEY TURNED AROUND AGAIN AND I WENT THROUGH SOME QUESTIONING AND SO FORTH. BY THE TIME I GOT OUT OF THERE, IT WAS AFTER MIDNIGHT.
 
UNK>> WHEN AND HOW DID YOU FIRST REALIZE THAT YOU WERE CONNECTED TO THIS EVENT THROUGH LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
BWF>> WHEN THEY ARRESTED ME.
 
UNK>> DID THEY TELL YOU WHY?
 
BWF>> THEY TOLD ME THEY WERE TAKING ME DOWNTOWN FOR SOME QUESTIONING.
 
UNK>>WHEN DID YOU FIRST HEAR THAT OSWALD, YOUR FRIEND LEE, WAS A SUSPECT?
BWF>> ON THE WAY OUT TO THE HOSPITAL. HE COME OVER THE NEWS STATION THAT I WAS LISTENING TO, AND I DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER IT WAS 8:208: 820 OR 1480, I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT STATION I WAS LISTENING TO. PROBABLY 1480, BUT I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. THEY SAID THE SUSPECT THEY WERE TRYING TO FIND AND WAS THEIR BEST LEAD WAS LEE OSWALD. THAT REALLY THREW ME FOR A CURVE.
UNK>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU'RE IN YOUR CAR DRIVING AND YOU'RE HEARING THAT THE POLICE ARE LOOKING FOR --
BWF>> LEE OSWALD IN CONNECTION WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY. TO ME THAT WAS MIND-BOGGLING BECAUSE I ASKED, HOW COULD LEE DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT? BECAUSE THE MAN I KNEW WAS SUCH A PERFECTIONIST IN WHAT HE DID, AND HE TRIED TO DO EVERYTHING CORRECTLY, AND HE WAS SO GOOD WITH THE CHILDREN IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. I ASKED MYSELF, HOW COULD SOMEONE DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

UNK>> ARE YOU CLEAR THAT THE INFORMATION YOU HEARD WAS THAT THE POLICE WERE LOOKING FOR HIM OR THAT HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED?
BWF>> WELL, THE FIRST THING THEY SAID, WE HAVE A SUSPECT THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IN CONNECTION WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY, AND HE SAID HIS NAME WAS LEE OSWALD. THEY SAID HE WAS WORKING AT THE TEXAS DEPOSITORY. I KNEW IT WAS THE SAME LEE THAT I KNEW THEN. OKAY WHATEVER WES
 
UNK>> AND THIS DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU, THAT OSWALD COULD BE CONNECTED?
 
BWF>> NO. IT WAS VERY HARD FOR ME TO EVEN BEGIN TO BELIEVE THAT HE COULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
 
UNK>> AND YOU'RE SURE THIS IS BEFORE YOU ARRIVED AT THE HOSPITAL?
BWF>> YES. WHAT TIME THIS NEWS THING WAS AND EXACTLY WHAT TIME IT WAS, I WAS ON MY WAY OUT TO THE HOSPITAL TO SEE MY STEPFATHER, I CAN'T BE SPECIFIC, BUT I CAN ONLY ESTIMATE.
 
UNK>> WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME, THEN, THAT YOU REALIZED HOW YOU WERE CONNECTED OTHER THAN JUST TAKING OSWALD TO WORK THAT MORNING?
 
BWF>> THAT FIRST OCCURRED TO ME WHEN I WAS ARRESTED OUT AT THE HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS VISITING ON THAT FRIDAY AFTERNOON WITH MY STEPFATHER WHEN DETECTIVES RHODES AND STOVALL ARRESTED ME AND TOOK ME DOWNTOWN.
 
UNK>> WHEN DID IT FIRST OCCUR TO YOU, OR WHEN DID SOMEONE FIRST MAKE YOU AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE RIFLE MAY HAVE BEEN IN YOUR CAR? ON THAT TRIP INTO WORK THAT MORNING.
BWF>> THAT WAS MADE CLEAR TO ME WHEN THEY BEGAN THEIR INTERROGATION OF ME, TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT I KNEW, IF ANY, ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY.
 
UNK>> HOW DID THEY GET INTO THAT? WHAT MADE THEM PURSUE THAT LINE OF QUESTIONING?
 
BWF>> THAT I DO NOT KNOW, BUT I DO REMEMBER THEY ASKED ME IF LEE HAD BROUGHT ANYTHING TO WORK WITH HIM THAT MORNING, AND I TOLD HIM, YES, HE HAD BROUGHT A PACKAGE. I ASKED HIM WHAT IT WAS, AND HE TOLD ME IT WAS THE CURTAIN RODS THAT HE TOLD ME HE WOULD BE BRINGING TO WORK THE DAY BEFORE.
 
UNK>> BUT WE NEED TO ASK YOU TO TELL IT ONE MORE TIME AS BEST YOU RECALL. WHEN YOU FIRST SAW OSWALD OUT AT YOUR HOUSE THAT MORNING, DID YOU SEE A PACKAGE AT THAT TIME?
 
BWF>> THE FIRST TIME I SAW THE PACKAGE WAS WHEN I OPENED THE CAR DOOR, AND AS I WAS SITTING DOWN, I GLANCED OVER MY SHOULDER LOOKING AT HIM, AND I SAW OUT OF THE CORNER OF MY EYE THAT SOMETHING WAS LAYING ON THE BACKSEAT. AND THAT'S WHEN I ASKED HIM, I SAID, WHAT'S THAT ON THE BACKSEAT? AND HE SAYS, REMEMBER, THAT'S THE CURTAIN RODS I TOLD YOU I COME OUT TO GET THAT I WAS TAKING BACK TO HANG IN MY APARTMENT. AND THAT WAS THE LAST THAT HE AND I HAD TALKED ABOUT IT. I DIDN'T THINK ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT IT.
 
UNK>> THE SIZE AND SHAPE SEEMED LIKE IT MIGHT BE JUST WHAT HE SAID?
 
BWF>>YES. ONLY GETTING A GLANCE AND NOT LOOKING REAL THOROUGH, I OFTEN SAY THE PACKAGE WAS ONE TO TWO INCHES ONE WAY. THAT WAS THE BEST WAY I COULD DESCRIBE THE PACKAGE. IT WAS MADE OUT OF BROWN WRAPPING PAPER THAT YOU COULD BUY ANYWHERE, AND IT'S QUITE COMMON IN COMPANIES THAT DO -- WHERE THEY PACKAGE FOR THESE CUSTOMERS REGARDLESS OF THE TYPE OF BUSINESS. AND THE TAPE AND SO FORTH THAT THEY USED AT THAT TIME THAT WE USED AT THE DEPOSITORY IN OUR BUSINESS TODAY IS VERY SIMILAR.

What happened to the crinkley paper Wes?
 
UNK>> HAVE YOU BECOME AWARE OF A CONTROVERSY INVOLVING THE BAG AND HOW LONG THE RIFLE WAS AND THINGS LIKE THAT?
 
UNK>> LET'S GO BACK TO THE BAG JUST FOR A MINUTE. WE'RE ALMOST 39 YEARS AFTER THE FACT, AND I'M SURE A LOT OF THIS IS STILL PRETTY CLEAR IN YOUR MIND, BUT PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS WONDER IF YOU PICKED UP SOMETHING OVER THE YEARS AND BLENDED IT INTO YOUR OWN STORY. THE CONTROVERSY ABOUT THE BAG IS THAT WHEN THE RIFLE IS FULLY ASSEMBLED, IT'S ABOUT 40 INCHES LONG. YOU AND YOUR SISTER, IN THE EARLY DAYS, ALWAYS INDICATED THAT THE BAG WAS A LITTLE OVER TWO FEET. 26 INCHES, 27 INCHES, SOMEWHERE IN THERE, GIVE OR TAKE AN INCH, LIKE YOU SAID. WHEN YOU TAKE THE RIFLE APART, IT'S 34 OR 36 INCHES IN LENGTH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. QUITE A BIG DIFFERENCE. THAT'S THE SHORTEST IT COULD POSSIBLY BE. SO THE CONCLUSION IS THAT EITHER THE RIFLE WAS NOT IN THE PACKAGE OR THAT YOU ASK YOUR SISTER WERE MISTAKEN. HOW DO YOU -- HOW DOES ONE RESOLVE THAT? IS THERE A WAY TO RESOLVE IT?
 
BWF>> WELL, I'M NOT SURE IF THERE IS ANY WAY TO RESOLVE IT. I CAN ONLY TELL YOU WHAT I HAD ACTUALLY SEEN AND I KNOW THE THINGS LIKE WHAT YOU DISCUSSED ABOUT THE LENGTH, IF YOU SHOULD BREAK DOWN THE RIFLE, THE BARREL IS A CERTAIN LENGTH, THE STOCK IS A CERTAIN LENGTH. WE'LL REALLY NEVER KNOW ACTUALLY WHAT WAS IN THAT BAG. DID HE HAVE A RIFLE IN IT? I DON'T KNOW. AND IS THERE ANY WAY THAT WE COULD BE CERTAIN AFTER THIS AMOUNT OF TIME TO FOLLOW THAT? I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT. I WISH I DID, AND I WISH I COULD JUST SAY RIGHT OUT IT WAS THIS, THIS OR THAT WAS THIS WAY, BUT ONLY SEEING SOMETHING FOR JUST A VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME AND NOT KNOWING AT THAT TIME HOW IMPORTANT THE SHORT TIME THAT YOU HAD TO LOOK AT THAT WAS GOING TO MEAN LATER ON AND HOW MUCH IT WOULD BE ON THAT. I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE COME UP WITH THEIR OWN CONCLUSION, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO ASSURE YOU THAT MY SISTER AND I ARE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH AT ACTUALLY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN. NOW, WHETHER ONE WANTS TO BELIEVE THAT OR NOT, THAT'S UP TO THEM. BUT I KNOW WHAT WE DID SEE, AND THAT'S ALL I CAN TELL YOU.    

I think there are other things you could tell us Wes.
 
UNK>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CORRECT ANSWER REALLY IS?
 
BWF>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY SAD IF WE HAVE, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, HAVE SAID THIS MAN ASSASSINATED JOHN F. KENNEDY AND HE DIDN'T.
 
UNK>>DID HE OR DID HE NOT?

BWF>> I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT 100% THAT HE DID THAT. IF HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO GO TO TRIAL, I THINK HE WOULD HAVE ANSWERED A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND HOPEFULLY WE WOULD HAVE COME TO THE -- TO THE RIGHT -- I DON'T LIKE TO USE THE WORD "ASSUME," BUT I -- WE WOULD HAVE FOUND MAYBE THE TRUTH BECAUSE AS EACH DAY GOES BY AND EACH YEAR PASSES, THE CHANCES OF US EVER FINDING THE 100% TRUTH OF WHO ACTUALLY ASSASSINATED JOHN F. KENNEDY IS THE CHANCE OF FINDING THAT OUT IS -- IT GETS SLIMMER. 

So speak up and we will answer those questions.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

Ed, your discussing of the artifacts belonging to Oswald "recovered" at the Beckley house reminds me so much of the Lincoln case a century before.

Then, George Atzerodt had supposedly checked into the Willard Hotel - in order to kill Vice President Johnson who was residing there - but the only artifacts they "recovered" from Atzerodt's room were the slippers, dressing gown, and checkbook belonging to John Wilkes Booth.

Weird how Booth loaned Atzerodt all his personal stuff to spend the night in the Willard.

Oh, and need I mention these items were what ties the diminutive German to Booth's "gang"?

How convenient that was huh? And the guys in Dallas a century later used the same lame technique.

Ed Ledoux

Those days of turning things INTO a conspiracy are long gone.
We are now in the sole conspirator age.

Where is Dr Mudd when you need him!
He could have splinted the JFK case back together.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker
 
Ed, any anomalous words or phrases - and there are quite a few - in the transcriptions for Frazier's HSCA interview come down to the very poor quality of the recording. So when you see "house" (as one example)  where it doesn't seem to belong, it is just a problem with the transcription. Whoever did it, has just taken a best guess, and gone with that, even if it doesn't make sense.

There is a slim hope that we can get the takes cleaned up. There is a member who has been chasing that up...

Ed Ledoux

Seemed either an error or an avoidance of the term 'warehouse' I could not decide.

Greg Parker

Warehouse does fit better. Other parts of the transcription read like the words from a dozen books have been tossed on the floor and randomly picked up and added.

Ed Ledoux

Etch A Sketch of Oral Histories?

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

How did BWF and LMR know how long to make or better yet NOT make the bags length so as it would fit any rifle broken down.

It seems they would need to know the length of the MC rifle so as not to be trapped into saying it could carry a rifle.
They are the only ones who are, or Wes is the only one whom claims it was rods for LHO's apt.

What the heck happened to LHO eating that day?
Hmmm he spent a lot of time in lunch rooms to not have a scrap of food.
He had cash and time why not buy lunch off the food wagon.
Did he just drink soda?

He carried rods to work but took nothing with him to Irving. Not a bag of dirty wash, or a toothbrush.

And now we have Gladys Johson saying he did not go to Irving that weekend he was at Beckley.  (This should throw LHO staying at Beckley under the bus)

Wes would not be driving LHO back from Irving if LHO did not stay Thursday night at Irving. (LHO may have gotten a lift to Irving was seen by neighbor but took bus back to Oak Cliff) 

"Where is your rider" messes up BWF's story.

I don't see Givens as giving a signal as much as much as wondering where Lee is, and Lee is usually riding with BWF but usually on a Monday.
Why would Givens be asking BWF where LHO is on a Friday?

Wouldn't Givens only ask if LHO had not shown up yet and he sees BWF so he asks him where his rider is. Thinking maybe BWF has seen LHO?
And then why would Wesley say, shout out, he had dropped him off by the door?
Actually when giving someone a ride it is proper to drop your passenger off near the door then you go and park where ever it is that you park. It is bad manners to make your guest walk several blocks.
Especially when they have to carry such a large package 

Thus "Where's your rider" was asked of BWF.
He dropped the lunch, gun sack, curtain rod carrying commie off at the TSBD door like a good car driving capitalist should.

Mick Purdy

Thanks Ed,

Love your posts, 

Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier in my mind lied about observing LHO carrying a sack and lied about the imaginary sacks length. I believe BWF with his knowledge of rifles would have known exactly what to say to authorities to give the impression of a disassembled rifle hidden in a paper bag.

BWF, “It must have been 2 foot long and the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under.

LMR, stated: 7.15am Nov 22nd that she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LHO walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approx. 3 feet 6 inches, in the back seat of Wesley Frazier’s 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.

It’s in this context I contend that they did knowingly create the illusion of LHO carrying something sinister.

Just long enough to plausibly suggest it could have carried a weapon but short enough to also suggest ignorance on their part.

I believe “Where’s your rider” suggests very strongly BWF not only lied about the existence of the sack, and the length too but lied about LHO being with him in the car park that fateful day.

As for Wes’s response to Shields with regards to where Oswald was : “I dropped him off at the building”, I believe that is no more than pure fantasy.

Oswald walked with Wes through that carpark on every other occasion, this was supposedly just another one of those “firsts” for that incredibly coincidental day.

BWF, concocted the story of Oswald walking ahead, because LHO was not with him, not at any stage.

When confronted by Shields and the question raised by Givens, BWF did what he did best, he lied.

And not in a shy way either, he hollered out, “I dropped him off at the building”

The innocent explanation for Givens question about where his rider might have been is, it was exactly that, curiosity.

But why would Givens ask in the first place, whether Monday or Friday. Would Givens really have been that interested? Or even cared.

Consider Givens WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What you said and what he said?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about his family, or baseball, or anything?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald?
Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee.
Mr. BELIN. What did he call you?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call me anything.

In my mind Given’s testimony with regards to Lee does not evoke the sort of relationship in which he would at the top of his voice, and with any real concern, yell out to Wes asking where Lee was.

And remember, Wes has maintained for 51 years he parked that car in the lot with LHO as his passenger. He has stated for over 50 years he watched Lee grab that package and walk ahead of him. He has said for 5 decades he stayed back at the car while Lee walked ahead so he could charge the battery. He has said he never allowed Oswald to get further than 50 feet ( 25 steps) ahead of him.

It beggars belief that Shields did not see Lee walking just ahead of Wes.

It is impossible that Givens from his elevated position on the 2nd floor of the N Houston St warehouse failed to see Oswald too.

And remember this too, when Shields was asked did he see Oswald at any time with Frazier in the lot he said NO!

In my mind that is the slam dunk on this, this is from Edward Shields testimony, his words, spoken as a completely disinterested party with nothing to gain, and quite possibly didn’t even realise the significance of what he had told authorities. 

Greg Parker
 
From Truly's testimony
 
    Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.
 
    First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?
 
    Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.
 
From Frazier's HSCA interview
 
    SO SOMEONE HAD GONE TO MR. SHELLY AND ASKED, ARE WE GOING TO GET TO SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE? AND THERE WAS -- I GUESS HE CHECKED WITH MR. TRULY AND MR. TRULY CHECKED WITH HIS BOSSES WHO WERE UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR AND THEY HAD COME BACK WITH THE REPLY THAT, YES, WE WOULD STOP AND EVERYONE COULD SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker
 
From Truly's testimony
 
    Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.
 
    First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?
 
    Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.
 
From Frazier's HSCA interview
 
    SO SOMEONE HAD GONE TO MR. SHELLY AND ASKED, ARE WE GOING TO GET TO SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE? AND THERE WAS -- I GUESS HE CHECKED WITH MR. TRULY AND MR. TRULY CHECKED WITH HIS BOSSES WHO WERE UP ON THE SECOND FLOOR AND THEY HAD COME BACK WITH THE REPLY THAT, YES, WE WOULD STOP AND EVERYONE COULD SEE THE PRESIDENTIAL PARADE

Mick Purdy

A lot of not recalling in this case to be sure, if you were of a cynical nature, one might be tempted to even be a little suspicious of all this forgetfulness.

Mick Purdy

The strange awakening Friday morning.

Seems strange that both Marina and Ruth struggle to remember what time Lee would need to leave home for his job in at the TSBD with a start time which didn't much alter from one day to the next......Seems 8.00 am at the rear door in at the warehouse was the routine. 

Seems peculiar too that a house full of small children  4 of them in total, would not have woken prior to 7.30 am, and required some loving attention from their mothers. Seems strange given this that the house should be so strangely quiet.

And what a strange morning it must have been for Marina to have woken before Lee, gotten up to check if he had had breakfast only to discover he wasn't there. Strange!

And what quiet children Marina was raising, after getting out of bed to check Lee's breakfast  before Lee had awoken (according to Marina) she was able to catch 40 winks anyways because she went back to bed and didn't get back up unitl after Ruth had left for the Dentist at 9.00. Or was it the Doctors.
 
Oswald Marina WC testimony.
 
When your husband went back to work on Monday, October 28th, did he drive with Wesley Frazier at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. But, no--no, I remember that he did not come to get him, but Lee met him near his house. Lee told me that. Or his sister. I don't remember. Lee told me about it. But I have forgotten.
Mr. RANKIN. But he did not go in by bus that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said his sister drove him to the bus. I only know that this boy did not come to get him that day.
Mr. RANKIN. As far as you know, he may have gone all the way into Dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. I don't know. I only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day.

Mr. RANKIN. On November 22, the day of the assassination, you said your husband got up and got his breakfast. Did you get up at all before he left?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. I woke up before him, and I then went to the kitchen to see whether he had had breakfast or not-- whether he had already left for work. But the coffee pot was cold and Lee was not there.
And when I met Ruth that morning, I asked her whether Lee had had coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some instant coffee.
But probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know approximately what time your husband left that morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have written it there, but I have now forgotten whether it was seven or eight. But a quarter to eight--I don't know. I have now forgotten.
Mr. RANKIN. What time was he due for work?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was due at work at 8 or 8:30. At 7:15 he was already gone.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he rode with Wesley Frazier that morning?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I didn't hear him leave.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the Paine's residence or garage?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see a bag at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did your husband have his lunch? Did he take a sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for lunch? Do you know?
Mrs. OSWALD. He usually took sandwiches to lunch. But I don't know whether he would go home or not.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up on November 22d?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I got up the television set was on, and I knew that Kennedy was coming. Ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and she left the television set on for me. And I watched television all morning, even without having dressed. She was running around in her pajamas and watching television with me.

Paine Ruth WC testimony.
 
Mr. JENNER - You awakened when in the morning?
Mrs. PAINE - At 7:30.
Mr. JENNER - And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?
Mrs. PAINE - When I awoke I I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.
 
Mr. JENNER - Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?
Mrs. PAINE - That was all he normally had for breakfast.
Mr. JENNER - A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?
Mrs. PAINE - Instant coffee; yes.
Mr. JENNER - What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?
Mrs. PAINE - It was very normal for him to take coffee.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?
Mrs. PAINE - No; she was not.

Mrs. PAINE - I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl.
I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.

I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and. Marina thanked me for having left the television set on.

Mick Purdy

The walk into the TSBD.

Frazier claims in his testimony, he allowed Oswald to walk ahead of him as he wanted to charge the battery of his car, rev the engine momentarily. He claims Oswald was never more than 50 feet in front of him.

In telling this to the authorities, Frazier created the impression there was a distance between himself and Lee. In doing so, this version his official version of the walk into the TSBD, allowed for potential witnesses to observe Wes on his own without demolishing the story of Lee and Wes walking into the TSBD.

I now believe Edward Shields and Charles Givens, came very close to unraveling Wes’s preconceived version of events.

Caught off guard, and observed alone in the parking lot by Shields and Givens and questioned where his rider might be, he gave the only answer he could without destroying the story of his driving Oswald into work that day.

IMO "I dropped him off at the building" were the words which fell from Wes’s mouth in a spontaneous attempt to hold onto his story. He would have been well aware that both these potential witnesses had observed that Lee was nowhere to be seen.

And so it is my opinion after careful consideration, Wes invented the distance between himself and an imaginary LHO in the parking lot to create for the authorities a version of events which allowed for observations of Wes walking alone in the carpark.

Wes, IMO is a liar. Provably so. He has form on the board in this regard. I do not underestimate how pivotal a role he might have played in the framing of LHO.

IMO, however he might have been a far more passive participant than imagined.

The further I dig, the more convinced I am becoming in believing Wes may have been coerced even blackmailed into the activities regarding Friday 22nd.

At this point, just a hunch……