Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Like that lie list! Wes is a half-truther.

Warren Commission lawyers did some classic bait and switch with their questioning. I would call it a "version" of the truth.
It also depends on what you call facts.  In this case 'admissions of fact' as it is called  were like a whole other world where reality must be suspended briefly while counsel builds a imaginary framework made by assuming facts not in evidence. It can do this only if it knowingly does not seek admission of testimony of contrary witnesses. Lawyers keeping witnesses from telling them the whole story and details by crafting the questions to elicit a certain response, and only a certain response was quite legal, but without the adversary to ask the polar opposite questions and probing those details could anyone know where the truth laid on 11/22.

They allowed The Weasel to go unchallenged. The 24" bag and curtain rods were the only threads Wes (Linnie with the help of the good reverend) had to claim their innocence. Without the polygraph results from Wes' session/s I doubt the truth can be gleaned from the weasel.

Say do we know if this is the Houston Street Warehouse?

 

 

It is a four story warehouse with dock as seen in the recreation for the film FDIN. Wes appears to turn and park across from it. Recall that Wes said he does not take Houston but turns up Record. He avoids Houston while driving, only mentioning it existing one block over from where he drives.

"Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot."

So what was the other route? Go by the TSBD? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIre8cupXfg

Also in the vid we see Wes take a route through the tracks, not near Houston street proper. He is closest to the other warehouse when he is driving past it to the parking spots. So when Wes is asked by Jarman "Where is your rider?" it must be as Wes drove past with no LHO riding to work, no curtian rods or short bag.

Here we see Wes's route to the TSBD across tracks etc. View of rear of building and windows.



What a lousy, though direct, way to walk...but hey that's just me, I'd walk up Houston. But this is Wes, and he avoids Houston, even walking....

Mick Purdy

Half - truther is so so apt for Weasel Wes.
I do like Perjury though.

Mick Purdy

Ed,

that building certainly fits the description, great find. I looked endlessly for a pic when I was trying to establish the distance between the two warehouses.

Mick Purdy

So when Wes is asked by Jarman edit: Given's "Where is your rider?" it must be as Wes drove past with no LHO riding to work, no curtian rods or short bag.

Ed, I hadn't contemplated the drive-by before now.

Interesting.

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux

Full Mental Jacket Testimony

Mr. FRAZIER - He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them....




Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.



Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types



Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

So a big sleeved flannel gray wool zipper jacket... madre mia!

Mick Purdy

I think Ed you've gone a long way to show that Linnie Mae and Wesley were clueless with regards to what Lee wore that Friday morning, because....well, They didn't see him!

Same as the lunch Lee carried, they didn't know. They were too busy putting a  large package in his murderous hands to know whether he had lunch or not. But since they went with the large paper sack with curtain rods, they couldn't put a small launch bag in his lap, could they?

This is infuriating in many ways cause Wesley is caught in lie after lie.

I once held the view that Linnie Mae had a lot more to do with the orders, but as time goes by , well I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe Wes was driving the bus after all, even as a 19 year old lad.

Maybe Shelley and Truly were his ring masters after all.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

So when Wes is asked by Jarman edit: Given's "Where is your rider?" it must be as Wes drove past with no LHO riding to work, no curtian rods or short bag.

Ed, I hadn't contemplated the drive-by before now.

Interesting.

Mick Purdy

I believe Givens is the key to knowing exactly where Lee was at work on Friday morning and at what time, and Given's also provides a time stamp for Wes and his whereabouts too. IMO Givens proves the two, Lee and Wes were separated and did not arrive at work together.

Consider, Givens observes Lee at 7.45 am in the Domino room reading a paper.

Given’s floated between the Houston Nth ware house and the Elm street warehouse as required.

Givens is witnessed by Shields at around 8.00 am down at the Houston Nth building at a window on the 2nd floor. (where he yells to Wes "where’s your rider") This is important IMO.

Givens yelled "where's your rider" because he had already seen Wes's rider inside the TSBD

What does this all mean?

IMHO it shows that Givens had spotted Lee in the Domino room at 7.45 am reading a newspaper, and then went down to the Nth Houston warehouse to discover what his duties for the day would be, most likely from Shields and arrived there at around 7.50 am.

IMO at around 7.55 am or there abouts Wes Frazier was observed on his own (HSCA Shields) walking through the parking lot by both Shields and Givens.

Givens independently observed Oswald inside the Elm St Building at 7.45 am and witnessed Frazier at around 7.55-8.00 am in the car park walking on his own to the Elm St Building

In my opinion, this almost certainly suggests in an extremely persuasive way that Wes was indeed on his own in that car park and that Lee was already inside the building, reading the paper in the Domino room.

This still very much stands I believe either with the drive-by or the walk.

You think Ed?

Johnny Hartley

Guys, if we think that Frazier was involved with the shooting, it is worth reminding ourselves something I had not been aware of until reading Frazier's Shaw trial testimony -  http://www.jfk-online.com/fraziershaw.html - that Frazier had rifle experience from military service, and was familiar with breaking a rifle down.  So him bringing a gun to work, and laying the blame on Oswald, is a very practical possibility.  But his being seen at the front of the building precludes him from being an actual shooter.  So his job could have been just to bring the gun into work. 

Q: Mr. Frazier, have you been in the Armed Services of the United States?
A: Yes, sir, I have.
Q: What branch of the Service?
A: Army.
Q: Were you in the Infantry?
A: Yes, sir, I have had Infantry training.
Q: Did you have any rifle training?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: During the course of that training did you ever have occasion to break a rifle down?
A: Yes, sir, quite frequently.
Q: What kind of rifle did you use in the Service?
A: An M14.
Q: Approximately how long was the M14 that you used?
A: I believe the correct length is 30 some odd inches long?
Q: 30 something inches long?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever break that rifle down?
A: Yes, sir, I broke it down many times.
Q: Broken down, how long was the rifle?
MR.DYMOND: I don't think it is relevant how long a United States Army rifle is.
THE COURT: If Mr. Alcock tells the Court he intends to connect it up I will permit it.
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor, I intend to connect it up.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: How long was the broken down rifle?
A: When you break a rifle down such as an Army weapon, you can break it down into many pieces. The first part is where you take the barrel off the stock and that reduces the size tremendously.
Q: How much did it reduce your rifle?
A: To be honest with you I didn't ever measure it because I didn't have any reason to.
Q: When you say it was reduced tremendously, would it be by half or what?
MR. DYMOND: Objection, the witness said he doesn't know.
THE COURT: I will permit the question. Do you have any idea what would be the longest size of the package if an Army rifle is broken down?
THE WITNESS: You mean the one I broke down?
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Yes, the one you broke down.
A: I would say it would be roughly 20 some odd inches, because the barrel was the longest part.

Mick Purdy

No argument from me, Johnny.
There's much to discover about Wesley and his movements on that Friday morning prior to his driving to work IMO.
There's also much to learn about Wesley's movements post assassination too.

Johnny Hartley

Frazier and Oswald had lots in common, same sort of age, both had military service, familiar with rifles, lived in the same area, worked at the same workplace, both started there around the same time... yet Oswald is the only one of them officially suspected.  He isn't asked what he did after the assassination after eating his lunch directly after the shooting.  I would estimate the shock of seeing the assassination in front of one would be the equivalent of seeing 9/11 unfold, and when that was unfolding I was at work and my colleagues and I were transfixed watching events unfold, trying to work out who was responsible... nobody sat down quietly eating lunch!  Yet that is what Frazier claims to have done.  So he has that lunch, ends up visiting a family member in hospital but isn't questioned openly what he did in between.  My guess is he rushed home and sat down with his sister to work out what story they could come up with to cover any involvement of Frazier's in bringing a rifle into the depository.

Stan Dane wrote:Johnny Hartley

Frazier and Oswald had lots in common, same sort of age, both had military service, familiar with rifles, lived in the same area, worked at the same workplace, both started there around the same time... yet Oswald is the only one of them officially suspected.  He isn't asked what he did after the assassination after eating his lunch directly after the shooting.  I would estimate the shock of seeing the assassination in front of one would be the equivalent of seeing 9/11 unfold, and when that was unfolding I was at work and my colleagues and I were transfixed watching events unfold, trying to work out who was responsible... nobody sat down quietly eating lunch!  Yet that is what Frazier claims to have done.  So he has that lunch, ends up visiting a family member in hospital but isn't questioned openly what he did in between.  My guess is he rushed home and sat down with his sister to work out what story they could come up with to cover any involvement of Frazier's in bringing a rifle into the depository.

Mick Purdy

Now we're getting there.

More to follow.

Frazier is slowly being undressed, and it ain't pretty underneath. 

Stan Dane wrote:Johnny Hartley

Guys, if we think that Frazier was involved with the shooting, it is worth reminding ourselves something I had not been aware of until reading Frazier's Shaw trial testimony -  http://www.jfk-online.com/fraziershaw.html - that Frazier had rifle experience from military service, and was familiar with breaking a rifle down.  So him bringing a gun to work, and laying the blame on Oswald, is a very practical possibility.  But his being seen at the front of the building precludes him from being an actual shooter.  So his job could have been just to bring the gun into work. 

Q: Mr. Frazier, have you been in the Armed Services of the United States?
A: Yes, sir, I have.
Q: What branch of the Service?
A: Army.
Q: Were you in the Infantry?
A: Yes, sir, I have had Infantry training.
Q: Did you have any rifle training?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: During the course of that training did you ever have occasion to break a rifle down?
A: Yes, sir, quite frequently.
Q: What kind of rifle did you use in the Service?
A: An M14.
Q: Approximately how long was the M14 that you used?
A: I believe the correct length is 30 some odd inches long?
Q: 30 something inches long?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever break that rifle down?
A: Yes, sir, I broke it down many times.
Q: Broken down, how long was the rifle?
MR.DYMOND: I don't think it is relevant how long a United States Army rifle is.
THE COURT: If Mr. Alcock tells the Court he intends to connect it up I will permit it.
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor, I intend to connect it up.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: How long was the broken down rifle?
A: When you break a rifle down such as an Army weapon, you can break it down into many pieces. The first part is where you take the barrel off the stock and that reduces the size tremendously.
Q: How much did it reduce your rifle?
A: To be honest with you I didn't ever measure it because I didn't have any reason to.
Q: When you say it was reduced tremendously, would it be by half or what?
MR. DYMOND: Objection, the witness said he doesn't know.
THE COURT: I will permit the question. Do you have any idea what would be the longest size of the package if an Army rifle is broken down?
THE WITNESS: You mean the one I broke down?
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Yes, the one you broke down.
A: I would say it would be roughly 20 some odd inches, because the barrel was the longest part.

Smee

When was he in the infantry, was it before the 22nd November 1963?

Greg Parker

I believe he joined the armed services post-assassination. 

But he was a southern country boy, He knew how to handle a rifle, and he obviously had some training - formerly or informally in... something prior to 11/22. His "I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough."  points to some sort of training. I can't think of any normal household where such an instruction to your kids would be essential advice.

Johnny Hartley

With there being a report that Oswald was driven to target practice by Frazier, and Frazier joining the infantry (it doesn't actually matter if he joined before or after the assassination, as it shows his preoccupation with guns and violence in either case) the case for Frazier being involved in the plot grows stronger and stronger.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I believe he joined the armed services post-assassination. 

But he was a southern country boy, He knew how to handle a rifle, and he obviously had some training - formerly or informally in... something prior to 11/22. His "I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough."  points to some sort of training. I can't think of any normal household where such an instruction to your kids would be essential advice.

Mick Purdy

Of course you're right Greg, informal or formal training he knew guns and rifles. The DPD confiscated 2 weapons he owned that day from his sister's house. And it still could be that it indeed was Frazier at the rifle range, I just ain't buying it was with Oswald.

"so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough." 

Yeah who by?

Frazier WC testimony

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there. So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that. And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.
Mr. BALL - Did he say he had been to Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER - He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said People in France was more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys would really take you.
Mr. BALL - Did he say anything about being in the Marines?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; he told me he was a Marine.
Mr. BALL - That he had been to Japan?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.

This in no way implies he was in the service at the time of the assassination but clearly shows Wes had an interest.

Stan Dane wrote:Johnny Hartley

With there being a report that Oswald was driven to target practice by Frazier, and Frazier joining the infantry (it doesn't actually matter if he joined before or after the assassination, as it shows his preoccupation with guns and violence in either case) the case for Frazier being involved in the plot grows stronger and stronger.

Mick Purdy

(it doesn't actually matter if he joined before or after the assassination, as it shows his preoccupation with guns and violence in either case)

Johnny, I'm not so certain we can glean from the record a propensity or preoccupation for violence in relation to Wesley. 

I agree he must've liked guns and rifles, and that he would've had the nohow to operate one and maintain it (break it down etc) but not sure about the violence reference.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Johnny Hartley

Guys, if we think that Frazier was involved with the shooting, it is worth reminding ourselves something I had not been aware of until reading Frazier's Shaw trial testimony -  http://www.jfk-online.com/fraziershaw.html - that Frazier had rifle experience from military service, and was familiar with breaking a rifle down.  So him bringing a gun to work, and laying the blame on Oswald, is a very practical possibility.  But his being seen at the front of the building precludes him from being an actual shooter.  So his job could have been just to bring the gun into work. 

Q: Mr. Frazier, have you been in the Armed Services of the United States?
A: Yes, sir, I have.
Q: What branch of the Service?
A: Army.
Q: Were you in the Infantry?
A: Yes, sir, I have had Infantry training.
Q: Did you have any rifle training?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: During the course of that training did you ever have occasion to break a rifle down?
A: Yes, sir, quite frequently.
Q: What kind of rifle did you use in the Service?
A: An M14.
Q: Approximately how long was the M14 that you used?
A: I believe the correct length is 30 some odd inches long?
Q: 30 something inches long?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever break that rifle down?
A: Yes, sir, I broke it down many times.
Q: Broken down, how long was the rifle?
MR.DYMOND: I don't think it is relevant how long a United States Army rifle is.
THE COURT: If Mr. Alcock tells the Court he intends to connect it up I will permit it.
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor, I intend to connect it up.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: How long was the broken down rifle?
A: When you break a rifle down such as an Army weapon, you can break it down into many pieces. The first part is where you take the barrel off the stock and that reduces the size tremendously.
Q: How much did it reduce your rifle?
A: To be honest with you I didn't ever measure it because I didn't have any reason to.
Q: When you say it was reduced tremendously, would it be by half or what?
MR. DYMOND: Objection, the witness said he doesn't know.
THE COURT: I will permit the question. Do you have any idea what would be the longest size of the package if an Army rifle is broken down?
THE WITNESS: You mean the one I broke down?
BY MR. ALCOCK:
Q: Yes, the one you broke down.
A: I would say it would be roughly 20 some odd inches, because the barrel was the longest part.

Smee

When was he in the infantry, was it before the 22nd November 1963?

Mick Purdy

What a curious line of questioning. 

So was Wesley in the armed services prior to the Assassination. Or are they questioning him after the fact about the length of what a rifle might measure when broken down? A military rifle. I don't see the connection.

MR.DYMOND: I don't think it is relevant how long a United States Army rifle is.
THE COURT: If Mr. Alcock tells the Court he intends to connect it up I will permit it.
MR. ALCOCK: Yes, Your Honor, I intend to connect it up.
THE COURT: You may proceed.

Mr Alcock never did get around to connecting it up.

It would seem this line of questioning would've been entirely appropriate if Wes had been in the services prior to the 22nd but if this is questioning regarding military service after the event then I fail to see the relevance.

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

And does it not make sense that Oswald would be next to his mate Buell out front watching the parade..."chewin' the fat" at lunch break.



And then after all the commotion, wander back inside the building, and out the back somewhere around that rear dock area and back out to the car. 
With a mind to catch a movie .......

Pure speculation of course. 

Mick Purdy

If that's not Buell chatting with Lee I'll eat my hat.....in a basement.

Stan Dane wrote:Lee Farley

I think it a possibility that when Buell Wesley Frazier told Gary Mack that he saw Lee Harvey Oswald leaving by the rear entrance shortly after the assassination it was really Buell Wesley Frazier saying he knew Lee Harvey Oswald left by the rear Houston Street entrance because he left with him.

What evidence is there that he left after being released with the other workers? None.

What evidence is there that he was told to leave by Bill Shelley and left with Oswald? Some circumstantial. First of all we have the strange departure of BWF into the TSBD basement to eat his lunch away from everyone else immediately after the assassination and nothing on record to say when he reappeared. We have his strange story of visiting the hospital after departing the TSBD to visit his abusive step-father where, once again, he goes off the radar.

As soon as the DPD and Irving Police get involved he is placed under suspicion and has a rifle removed from his home. He is taken to City Hall and put under extreme pressure. He gets a clergyman to accompany him. Upon his release from City Hall, and the clergyman departs, they swerve the car around and take him back. He is strapped to a lie-detector and is being threatened with being an accomplice in the murder of the President.

This is all pretty intense stuff.

I haven't yet toyed with the possibility but what if...

...and it's purely speculative...

...but what if he went the movies with Lee Harvey Oswald?

P.S. I'm in London after today for 3 days so will mostly be offline.

Mick Purdy

I believe there is a very real chance that's exactly what happened.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

And does it not make sense that Oswald would be next to his mate Buell out front watching the parade..."chewin' the fat" at lunch break.



And then after all the commotion, wander back inside the building, and out the back somewhere around that rear dock area and back out to the car. 
With a mind to catch a movie .......

Pure speculation of course. 

Mick Purdy

If that's not Buell chatting with Lee I'll eat my hat.....in a basement.

Stan Dane

That is BWF standing there next to Prayer Man Lee Oswald. Albert Rossi asked Buell last year if that was him standing there tall in the middle on the top step. He said yes.

Mick Purdy

If Frazier did not drive Oswald to work that Friday morning then who did? The various options in my mind are:

1. He was driven to work by William Randle
   
2. He was driven to work by Ruth or Michael Paine
   
3. He was driven to work by Linnie Mae Randle
   
4. He was driven to work by person/s unknown 
   
5. He caught a cab/Taxi to work
   
6. He caught the bus to work
   
7. He walked to work
   
8. He rode a push bike to work.
   

In my mind options 1, 2, and 3 are the only viable ones.

And I'm starting to lean toward option 2, Ruth or Michael Paine.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

And does it not make sense that Oswald would be next to his mate Buell out front watching the parade..."chewin' the fat" at lunch break.



And then after all the commotion, wander back inside the building, and out the back somewhere around that rear dock area and back out to the car. 
With a mind to catch a movie .......

Pure speculation of course. 

Mick Purdy

If that's not Buell chatting with Lee I'll eat my hat.....in a basement.

Stan Dane

That is BWF standing there next to Prayer Man Lee Oswald. Albert Rossi asked Buell last year if that was him standing there tall in the middle on the top step. He said yes.

Mick Purdy

This coupled with your amazing moving pics of BWF and Lee on the Steps goes a long way in my mind in proving BWF talked with Lee on the steps just after the assassination. They were after all work buddies. Wes was as far as we can tell the closest friend Lee had at work....this picture makes perfect sense, at least to me anyways.

Stan Dane

Mick, you've laid out a great case that BWF may have been much more "in the know" than most of us have previously imagined. You took us there; my contributions were modest by comparison. Well done sir!
 
And to lurkers from other forums – you know who you are – I'll say this: What Mick, Ed and others have accomplished here would never happen at your places. NEVER!
 
But you already know that, don't you Stinky, don't you Vacant Lot, don't you Fez, don't you Larry, don't you Lord Gordon, don't you Dawn, don't you Pat, don't you Jim, don't you Lauren……………?

And you all know why.

Mick Purdy

Oswald and Wes were unaccounted for after the assassination. IMO

Coincidence or not, consider:

They both appeared to have left from the work place at around the same time. There is no evidence that I know of that suggests Wes was cleared in any way to leave work officially. He just left. Wes has no explanation for his whereabouts for near on 2 hours possibly as long as 3 hours immediately following the assassination. According to the WC narrative, Oswald officially is on a bus and then a cab to Oak cliff, and then onto Tenth shooting Tippit. And finally felt the urge to watch a movie.

But we here at ROKC know different.
 
Oswald in ROKC world is unaccounted for too,

• we know he didn’t catch the bus,
  
• we know he didn’t hail a cab and
  
• we’re damn certain he didn’t shoot Tippit.
  

What we do know is he was at the Texas theatre from around as early as 1.00 pm onward.

So here we have in reality the two work buddies Wes and Lee unaccounted for immediately after the shooting. Wesley has never accounted for his time after the shots rang out not until he was arrested at the hospital. I say it’s completely possible Wes and Oswald were together….left by that rear loading dock, hopped into the car and drove off.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I believe he joined the armed services post-assassination. 

But he was a southern country boy, He knew how to handle a rifle, and he obviously had some training - formerly or informally in... something prior to 11/22. His "I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough."  points to some sort of training. I can't think of any normal household where such an instruction to your kids would be essential advice.

Mick Purdy

Of course you're right Greg, informal or formal training he knew guns and rifles. The DPD confiscated 2 weapons he owned that day from his sister's house. And it still could be that it indeed was Frazier at the rifle range, I just ain't buying it was with Oswald.

"so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough." 

Yeah who by?

Frazier WC testimony

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there. So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that. And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.
Mr. BALL - Did he say he had been to Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER - He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said People in France was more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys would really take you.
Mr. BALL - Did he say anything about being in the Marines?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; he told me he was a Marine.
Mr. BALL - That he had been to Japan?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.

This in no way implies he was in the service at the time of the assassination but clearly shows Wes had an interest.

Smee

Mick, you state:

The DPD confiscated 2 weapons he owned that day from his sister's house.

I'm aware of the .303 Lee Enfield but what other weapon that BWF owned was confiscated from LMR's house?

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I believe he joined the armed services post-assassination. 

But he was a southern country boy, He knew how to handle a rifle, and he obviously had some training - formerly or informally in... something prior to 11/22. His "I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough."  points to some sort of training. I can't think of any normal household where such an instruction to your kids would be essential advice.

Mick Purdy

Of course you're right Greg, informal or formal training he knew guns and rifles. The DPD confiscated 2 weapons he owned that day from his sister's house. And it still could be that it indeed was Frazier at the rifle range, I just ain't buying it was with Oswald.

"so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough." 

Yeah who by?

Frazier WC testimony

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there. So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that. And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.
Mr. BALL - Did he say he had been to Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER - He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in Russia?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said People in France was more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys would really take you.
Mr. BALL - Did he say anything about being in the Marines?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; he told me he was a Marine.
Mr. BALL - That he had been to Japan?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.

This in no way implies he was in the service at the time of the assassination but clearly shows Wes had an interest.

Smee

Mick, you state:

The DPD confiscated 2 weapons he owned that day from his sister's house.

I'm aware of the .303 Lee Enfield but what other weapon that BWF owned was confiscated from LMR's house?

Mick Purdy

I'm sorry, I am in error, it'd should've read "a weapon."
Thanks for picking that up.

Smee

No problem Mick.

Looking again at that invoice, I'm quite surprised at just how detailed the description of the weapon is - why mention such things as the peep sight and the strap rings? No serial number?

Surely just "British Enfield, P4, Mk I" with a serial number would have sufficed?

I wonder why no serial number?

Was it (and the ammo) returned to BWF?