Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Terry Martin    
 
Ed,
 
You found the Magic String!! We already had the Magic Bullet, so all we need now is the Magic Ring that can bind them because the accepted story is unraveling faster than we could have imagined.
 
You cover a lot of territory in the post and it will take some time to digest it all but I did notice a couple of interesting things:
 
CE3077 Mr. Slack said he saw someone he thinks was Oswald but the fellow was driven by a man he names as "Frazier" from Irving, TX.
 
Since many assume this event from the 17th of November was Crafard... Does this in any way imply that Crafard knew BWF and therefore BWF knew Ruby??
 
WTF!
 
So, BWF had a Mauser and Caster brought in a Mauser... did these rifles come from the same shipment that "fell off a truck somewhere"? And the very office door that was locked - IIRC Lee mentioned that locked door being very important when Gilbride's 2nd Floor encounter was being trashed at the old forum... and now it looks like maybe Lee was right - of course, again, of course (Lee and his hunches!).
 
And as the CIA loved to use publishing houses as fronts, what about this South-Western Publishing Company?
 
Today they are Cengage (http://solutions.cengage.com/brands/south-western/) and publish business and economics titles. Their website does not mention their proud history in Dealey Plaza... I wonder why?
 
Fantastic work by Mick and Ed!! And others... of course.

Goban Saor

Amen to that.

Ed Ledoux
 
The only property seized was the rifle and ammo at the Randle's.
 
 
  
 
 
They were detectives Rose and detective Stovall... They told me they were taking me downtown Dallas... And they had already been searching in my car. 'Cause I remember looking in the back seat- the back seat had been pulled out and I asked 'em, I said, 'What have you been doin' in my car?' And they said, 'Well, we've been searchin' your car.'
 
Wes has to be speaking of the return to the hospital and then he is taken in again...but wait the police officers say they got a call and turned around beforre they had taken him back...?
 
Here Wes said DPD did a followup? Did he mean a showup or a lineup?  Or a followup interview...that doesn't sound serious.
 
 

Sears And Roebuck 303 Enfield sporterized version purchased by Wes in Huntsville Texas.
Huntington Texas or Huntsville Alabama???
 

 

 
Wes says several ways that Marina made curtains for Lee and the apartment and he was ready to hang them up just needed the rods.
His sister Linnie Mae said he was late and Lee was already in the driveway, meaning Lee had walked all the way over as normally Wes would have picked him up already in front of the Paines. So was Lee early or late?


 
Frazier calls it a one car carport.
He could not park in the drive as he would have to move his car if the Randle's wanted to leave in their car.
 
 
 
Father in laws car the Plymouth '52 Station Wagon, Very Interesting!
Willie, Bill Randle had lots of cars!  Was that Wes' car or really Willie's 54 Chevy? 
 



 
And Wes thinks Billy had a old Plymouth or Buick station wagon.

Ed Ledoux

Sorry force of habit. Frazier of course did not have a Mauser, that was of course unless you worked for the Dallas Police then all rifles start out as Mausers and become Enfields and Cacanos.

http://www.dbtv.no/2843001616001

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that would be three car lengths plus in between space.
Mr. JENNER. Car widths?
Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me.

She also implicates Mrs Paine in the Curtain Rod story. Saying Ruth was to give LHO curtain rods
http://research.archives.gov/description/7461004

Ed Ledoux

http://www.dbtv.no/2843001616001#
 
Greg pointed out this in an old thread,
 
Jarman made another interesting comment to Maxwell and Brown. He was being questioned in regard to general gossip after the assassination and he has Frazier telling everyone the curtain rod story.
 
Brown: Is there anything else that you recall? You said he came in with Oswald and his package?
Jarman: Right. When Oswald got out of the car he brought the package inside with him into the dressing room.
Brown: Into -- through the dressing room.
Jarman: Right.
Brown: Now did he say what Oswald did with the package once he got it into[sic]?
Jarman: No. But he was questioned about that package after [it] happened and they searched for that package and couldn't find it.
 
After some confusion as to what to do with the children, Ruth Paine agreed to accompany Marina Oswald to the City Hall, and we began loading the property that we were confiscating .... About this time Mrs. Bill Randall, who lives at 2439 West 5th, Irving, approached Det. Adamcik and told him that her brother Wesley Frazier took Oswald to work this morning, November 22, 1963, and that she saw Oswald carry something over to her brother's car and put it in the back seat. It was long and wrapped in paper or a box. She was suspicious. She said that her brother was visiting her father at Parkland Hospital, and we could reach him there. We placed Michael Ralph Paine in the County Car, and Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and her two small children into our car. We drove immediately to the City Hall and parked our car in the basement of the City Hall. We brought Michael Paine, Ruth Paine, Marina Oswald and her two small children to the third floor, Homicide and Robbery Bureau Office, and then after a few minutes moved them to the Forgery Bureau Office, due to the crowded condition of the Homicide Office, time approximately 6:00 PM. After getting the Paines and Mrs. Oswald settled and while waiting for an interpreter, we started trying to locate Wesley Frazier. We contacted Parkland and found that Wesley Frazier was not at Parkland Hospital. We made a check of the Irving Clinics and found out via phone that Wesley was at the Irving Professional Center visiting his father. Det Rose called the Irving Police Department and talked to Det. Mc Cabe, who stated that he would immediately go to the Irving Professional Center and take Wesley Frazier into custody and instructed us to call him back in 15 minutes to verify the arrest. We called Det. J. A. Mc Cabe back at about 6:45 PM, and he informed us that he had effected the arrest of Wesley Frazier, and we could pick Frazier up at the Irving Police department. We (Dets. Rose and Stovall) drove immediately to Irving, arriving there at approximately 7:00PM. We talked to Det. Mc Cabe and he agreed to accompany us along with Wesley Frazier to the Irving Professional Center to make a search of Wesley Frazier's car, a 1954 black Chevrolet, 4 dr , License VK 3926. We made a thorough search of Frazier's car with negative results, then proceeded to Frazier's home, 2439 West 5th, Irving (1/2 block from the Paine home) and made a search of the Randle home (also Frazier home) and confiscated a 303 calibre rifle, full clip, and partial box 303 calibre ammunition belonging to Wesley Frazier (placed in Property Room).After a while Wesley Frazier's sister, Linnie Randle, came in and she, Linnie Randle, Wesley Frazier and a Rev. Campble of the Irving Baptist Church, were brought to the City Hall, Homicide and Robbery Office, where affidavits were taken from Wesley Frazier and Linnie Randle - time approximately 9:00 PM. After finishing the affidavits, we (Dets. Rose and Stovall) started back to Irving, Texas, with the above witnesses. About midway we received a radio call to return to the office with the witnesses. We turned around at Irving Boulevard and Stemmons Expressway and drove back to City Hall, and Det. Rose called Capt. Fritz by telephone and Capt. Fritz asked that we run Wesley Frazier on the Polygraph machine. We took Frazier to the ID Bureau, and Capt. Dowdy called Det. R. D. Lewis at home. R. D. Lewis arrived on the fourth floor about 12:10 AM, 11-23-63. This examination showed conclusively that Wesley Frazier was truthful, and that the facts stated by Frazier in his affidavit were true (See his Affidavit). We took Frazier, his sister, and their minister home and got off duty at 2:00 AM.G.F. Rose R.S. Stovall J.P. Adamcik
 
DAY: Two feet.
FRAZIER: Right. Somewhere around two feet, you know, give or take an inch here or there. And I told them that I only- only glanced.
DAY: At the package.
FRAZIER: I didn't look at the package. I didn't look at it. This meant the briefcase. Where we've been going here. That pretty well describes the briefcase. It was only- probably two feet.
 
In the next revelation, also on IV-18, we learn that Frazier stood next to Oswald in a DPD lineup- an incident never before reported. "Two feet" also happened to be the distance between them.
 
FRAZIER: He was standing next to me. He was pretty close to somewhere around two inches- where they could measure this thing.
MORIARTY: Two feet.
FRAZIER: Two feet?
DAY: It was two feet.
FRAZIER: Right. And- and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said- I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that.

Terry Martin

The ending seems rather bizarre, Ed.
 
"FRAZIER: Right. And- and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said- I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that."
 
I cannot seem to make heads or tails of what he's jabbering about. And his just previous comment about a "briefcase"!??

This sounds almost like he's discussing a completely different case. Or is he merely trying to re-write history, a la Gerald Blaine?

Greg Parker

Ex 664 looks to me like a handcuff knot used sometimes in search and rescue operations. LHO could have learned this knot in CAP. But that's knot to say Mike Paine, Robert Oswald or John Pic wouldn't know how to tie it. Or any number of cops, for that matter.  Is it even the same knot as shown in the string on the floor that was cut? Hard to tell...

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

The ending seems rather bizarre, Ed.
 
"FRAZIER: Right. And- and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said- I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that."
 
I cannot seem to make heads or tails of what he's jabbering about. And his just previous comment about a "briefcase"!??

This sounds almost like he's discussing a completely different case. Or is he merely trying to re-write history, a la Gerald Blaine?

Greg Parker

The problem is not what was said, it was how it was transcribed. The audio quality is terrible. I can't recall now if RG said he transcribed them, a friend of his did or if the transcriptions came from the archives as did the audio. Whatever the case, where the transcriptions sound bizarre, you should ignore it. There is no way of telling for sure what was actually said.

Attempts have been made to clean the audio up, but so far only with minimal results. Since there are nine audio files involved, it may not be worth the huge effort needed to get not much improvement based on the work on just one file so far.

Stan Dane wrote:Terry Martin

The ending seems rather bizarre, Ed.
 
"FRAZIER: Right. And- and Mr. Oswald was there and he told me that they made a positive identity down there. And I said- I said, 'Lee.' It was made several times. He insisted. He said, 'You drove the car.' He said he owned Dallas. He believed everything they told him about the package. He said he wasn't interested in other people or anything with people. He believed in no one. He said he actually told myself that."
 
I cannot seem to make heads or tails of what he's jabbering about. And his just previous comment about a "briefcase"!??

This sounds almost like he's discussing a completely different case. Or is he merely trying to re-write history, a la Gerald Blaine?

Ed Ledoux

Oh the briefcase is classic Buell mumbo jumbo, he talks about the bag LHO carried as if it had a case or box in it? Strange I thought manuscript and he was getting it published by a publisher in the TSBD. Who knows what the briefcase business was.

Yes BWF was a bit of a 'rambler' in his own way.

But he is speaking about being at a lineup with Oswald.
Was this the Brennan mystery lineup? 

Mick Purdy

Ed,

you must be getting sick of this word........................Outstanding!

Mick Purdy
 
Ed,
 
BWF: "Let’s start with that morning November the 22nd 1963.
Now how is that morning any different than any other morning…um, really it wasn’t?
What was really very unusual was that Lee …um, on his own decided to come down to the house
where there was my sister, my brother in law and her three children  and I was eating
um….breakfast."
 
I agree to disagree on this one,

I’m not so sure he’s referring to who lived in that house generally, it sounds to me he’s speaking about who was there when Lee came down to the house at the time he was having breakfast IMO.

Mick Purdy
 
  

Would Lee really plonk himself at the window? At this tiny window.
 
Really!
 
As Ed has pointed out given the timeline of the morning it would have Lee possibly standing at or around that window for near on 10 minutes if you wish to believe all the hocus pocus.
 
Not a single person, not one neighbor, not one passer-by, Nobody saw Oswald.................package or not

Terry Martin
 
Yes, he is specifically talking about the morning of November 22nd and mentions Willie was there having breakfast as well.
 
Of course, he also says there was nothing different that morning before saying "What was really very unusual..." which seems to negate the earlier statement.
 
Maybe Wes was having a hard time remembering what his lines were supposed to be.

Ed Ledoux
 
While one could be swayed to believe that is what he was saying I am going by what was actually said and how.
 
Verbatim he says,
 
"Lee on his own had decided to come down to the house, where I live with my Sister and Brother in Law and three children.
And I was eating breakfast.
And my Mother was there..."
 
He is explaining whom lives there in the house after he mentions Lee coming down to the house.
Wes has a pause and starts to finish what he was talking about which was Lee coming down to the house and that was unusual. If Wes had said yes it was unusual for Willie to be absent from breakfast we might have something but he goes on and includes Mom and then the Nieces in the breakfast. He never mentions Bill except that part where he introduces the occupants to the listening audience.

I am not hearing that Bill was also at breakfast or even in the house.
Could Bill have been in the shower, sure, Bill could have been anywhere but we don't have BWF placing him at the table.
We will need more than conjecture to nail down Wild Bill's Where Abouts.
 
Wes getting the Where's Your Rider question still is hanging out there.
 
.... Recall that the official history has the usual day LHO arrived with Frazier as Monday - not Friday. ~ Greg Parker
 
Yes Monday they should be cheering as Wes pulls in with Lee!
 
But why does anyone notice on a Friday that the rider has gone missing?
 
Wes also says he goes in by way of Record Street not down Houston beside the TSBD as he shows in recreations...odd, did anyone else catch that? Is that to avoid driving over the railroad tracks on the end of Houston? Or is there another reason?
 
Watch the video for clues
 
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo4K0ip2-Tk
 
 "If it doesn't clear up its gonna be a bad day to...." To What? See a parade, watch the President?

Walk with a long paper sack with gummed seams in the rain? 

Mick Purdy

You said:
While one could be swayed to believe that is what he was saying I am going by what was actually said and how.
 
Verbatim he says,
 
"Lee on his own had decided to come down to the house, where I live with my Sister and Brother in Law and three children.
And I was eating breakfast.
And my Mother was there..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4
 
I have transcribed verbatim what has been said below: 
I apologise for any previous errors

BWF: “Let’s start with that morning November the 22nd 1963.
Now how is that morning different than any other morning…um, really it wasn’t?
What was very unusual was that Lee …um, on his own he decided to come down to the house
where there were my sister, and my brother in law and three children and I was eating
um….breakfast….and my mother was there and she looked up………."
 
Subtle difference I know but that's where my doubt lay about whether or not Wes was referring to who lived there or who was there when Lee came down to the house.

I agree Ed, that it is extremely possible he might have been describing the occupants of the Randle house. But in my opinion, it’s certainly open to interpretation. I’m still not convinced he was talking in past tense.

The above extract which I have transcribed is now completely accurate, verbatim. Save the annoying part where someone decided to push the microphone towards Wes’s face and he stuttered.

Mick Purdy

If it doesn't clear up its gonna be a bad day to...." To What? See a parade, watch the President? Walk with a long paper sack with gummed seams in the rain? 

Certainly won't be putting on a "Happy face"  

Mick Purdy
 
Fritz says Oswald stated that all he carried was his lunch that day, and he carried it in the front seat.
 
Harry Holmes, a postal inspector and FBI informer, also questioned Oswald about the package he had been carrying:
 
"Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, 'Yes."'
"What was in the sack?"
"Well, my lunch."
"What size sack did you have?"
He said, "Oh, I don’t know what size sack. You don’t always get a sack that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack."
"Was it a long sack?"
"Well, it could have been."
"What did you do with it?"
"Carried it in my lap."
"You didn’t put it over in the back seat?"
"No. He said he wouldn’t have done that."
"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at work and you laid it over on the back seat."
"He said, 'Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other time he picked me up.'"
"That’s all he said about it."
 
(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.305)
 
And this from Marina,
 
MR RANKIN :Do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on November 22nd?
MRS OSWALD :I think that he had a package with his lunch. But a small package.
 
(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.1, p.73)
 
Frazier says, Oswald had a package and which he placed on the back seat.
 
Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?" And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
 
Frazier has maintained for fifty-one years Oswald did not have his lunch with him.
 
Mr. BALL - Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL - He did?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that day.
Mr. BALL - But every other day he brought a lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, when he rode with me.
Mr. BALL - Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, sandwich bag, sack.
 
Which is it then, the account of what Oswald said to the people whom were interrogating him who had every reason to bury the lunch story but didn’t,
 
Or,
 
Wes’s story, the one which states Lee had NO lunch with him……..but had a bag with curtain rods.
 
I know which one I’m going with.
 
My guess is Oswald had his lunch with him, my guess is he carried it on his lap in the front passenger seat of the car.
 
Only my guess is it wasn’t in Wesley’s car but instead in Bill Randle’s car…..

IMO Frazier was clueless to the fact Oswald had actually bought his lunch with him, because IMO Frazier never had Oswald in his car as a passenger that Friday morning.

Mick Purdy
 
Ed said from Roll call remedy:
 
Wesley Frazier described the roll call in detail and how he heard Lee's name but figured Lee had already left.
Wesley claims a roll call happened. Was Wes at that roll call?
We know Wesley's name was missing from this roll call sheet with 55 names, although his sister made the cut for a while till being crossed off.
Did he give his sisters name? Hmm He doesn't look like a Linnie Mae.
Wesley said he was there and he did hear Lee's name called out. Did he hear Lee's name called out first and wander around trying to find his friend?
What should we believe about Wes and his roll call recollections?
Why is his name not on that roll call sheet if he was there?

Why indeed.


Wes and the roll call @ 20.30

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

Mick Purdy
 
Jim DiEugenio said:
 
Anyone who can say that Linnie Mae Randle and Wesley Frazier are just ordinary witnesses, I mean what can you say?
 
I don't know anyone in this case who was snapped up to a polygraph at midnight on the 22nd at the DPD.
 
I don't know anyone who was so panic stricken that the operator could not get a reading on him.
 
I don't know anyone who had an Enfield rifle in their house, the first rifle reported used in the assassination.
 
I don't know any witness who the DPD tried to deliberately cover up what they did to him as they did with Frazier.
 
I don't know any witness with who the DPD deliberately deep sixed the evidence of what happened to him to the point that it completely disappeared from the archives.
 
I don't know any testimony in which both witnesses to one event have been impeached.

Colin Crow

I'll throw this speculation out there. What if Oswald carried the package to the Randle's, is briefly seen by LMR crossing the driveway and she hears him opening the door to Wesley's car. Frazier notices no package at all and it is left in the back of the car when they arrive. At this point the rifle is ready to be used, Oswald cannot say much as he is involved in its transport to the scene. The curtain rod story is concocted by Frazier and the Randle's to get Wesley off any perceived hook. This occurs in the time from when Frazier leaves the building and is arrested by police at the hospital some hours later. In the intervening time LMR talks to the cops at Irving. Interestingly it seems that the time that that conversation occurred might be before the bad is photographed leaving the building at 3 pm.

Mick Purdy
 
Wes did not know Oswald carried his lunch on his lap in the front passenger seat

You can take a guess why!

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

I'll throw this speculation out there. What if Oswald carried the package to the Randle's, is briefly seen by LMR crossing the driveway and she hears him opening the door to Wesley's car. Frazier notices no package at all and it is left in the back of the car when they arrive. At this point the rifle is ready to be used, Oswald cannot say much as he is involved in its transport to the scene. The curtain rod story is concocted by Frazier and the Randle's to get Wesley off any perceived hook. This occurs in the time from when Frazier leaves the building and is arrested by police at the hospital some hours later. In the intervening time LMR talks to the cops at Irving. Interestingly it seems that the time that that conversation occurred might be before the bad is photographed leaving the building at 3 pm.

Terry Martin

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, Colin.

Sure, Oswald could have put the package in the car and BWF may not have seen it but then the "Where's your rider?" would have never happened.

Although your timing of the curtain-rods-cover-story may have some legs.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

I'll throw this speculation out there. What if Oswald carried the package to the Randle's, is briefly seen by LMR crossing the driveway and she hears him opening the door to Wesley's car. Frazier notices no package at all and it is left in the back of the car when they arrive. At this point the rifle is ready to be used, Oswald cannot say much as he is involved in its transport to the scene. The curtain rod story is concocted by Frazier and the Randle's to get Wesley off any perceived hook. This occurs in the time from when Frazier leaves the building and is arrested by police at the hospital some hours later. In the intervening time LMR talks to the cops at Irving. Interestingly it seems that the time that that conversation occurred might be before the bad is photographed leaving the building at 3 pm.

Terry Martin

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, Colin.

Sure, Oswald could have put the package in the car and BWF may not have seen it but then the "Where's your rider?" would have never happened.

Although your timing of the curtain-rods-cover-story may have some legs.

Mick Purdy
 
I'm not sure how to respond here.
 
I'm a true believer!
 
I don't believe Oswald participated,  not in any way. I don't consider he carried a package, and have more recently determined he didn't ride to work with Weasel Wes.
 
I don't contemplate or consider speculation in any regard to Oswald trudging over to the Randles house with a package. Period!
 
Opinion and speculation along with conjecture is all we have in many instances in this case, and it's welcome. It's healthy.
 
Just as speculation regarding to who drove Oswald to work. That's what this thread is for.
 
I have reached my conclusion with the information we have available to us today. Information which in my mind suggests quite strongly and is very persuasive, that we are on the right track in threads such as this on this forum.

Mick Purdy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4
 
I have transcribed verbatim what has been said below:
I apologise for any previous errors
 
 
@9.06

BWF: “Let’s start with that morning November the 22nd 1963.
Now how is that morning different than any other morning…um, really it wasn’t.
What was very unusual was that Lee …um, on his own he decided to come down to the house,
where there were my sister  and my brother in law and three children and I was eating

um….breakfast….and my mother was there and she looked up………."

Ed Ledoux
 
Thanks Mick,
You saved me an hour. 

http://www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2

The only person that they called off from the roll call list whom was not there was Lee Oswald. Wes thinks Lee wanted a sandwich and left the TSBD. Of course he would, he said Lee had no lunch, only curtain rods. Truly had to call upstairs to get okay to let employees go. Roll Call was 30-45 minutes after shooting. So by 1 or 1:30 pm they were roll calling and then let go a few minutes later by Truly and the boss upstairs. Wes claims again he is arrested by Rose and Stovall but they claim Detective John A. McCabe arrested BWF at the hospital and takes him to Irving PD... Wes said Rose and Stovall, two DPD cops whom he later was friendly with arrested him.

jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm
jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/stovall.htm

Wes has a lot of inconsistent claims not backed by anyone...except Linnie and the bit about the bag.
 
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/randl_l1.htm
 
Randle says on November 23rd that she saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile. Thereafter, she observed OSWALD walk to the front, or entrance area, of her residence where he waited for FRAZIER to come out of the house and give him a ride to work.
 
RANDLE stated while at the Dallas Police Department on the evening of November 22, 1963, officers of the Dallas Police Department had exhibited to her some brown package paper, however she had not been able to positively identify it as being identical with the above-mentioned brown package, due to the fact she had only observed the brown package from her residence window at a distance. So she did not see it go in the car this is an assumption. She said at first it was just a Long Brown Package.

 
 
Linnie would have the length for the FBI on November 23rd as a 3 foot 6 inch long brown package.

http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/randle_linnie_mae/randle_linnie_mae-0005.jpg
 
Secret Service gives Linnie a chance to describe the item on November 28. She tells them it is "two feet or over in length"
She has the size down to one which is now similar to Wesley's description of about 24". But has the "Package" now "Wrapped" in brown paper.
 
She then tell FBI investigators on December 1st that it was a long package wrapped in brown paper or a brown sack.
She now brings the size back up to "27 inches."

http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/randle_linnie_mae/randle_linnie_mae-0011.jpg
http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/randle_linnie_mae/randle_linnie_mae-0012_t.jpg
 
Lee was not carrying a rifle he was carrying an accordion!  
 
Here we have Linnie saying Essie did not see the bag, but Essie did get a glimpse of Lee, but this was after Lee had put the package in the car. Thus getting Essie off the hook.

http://media.nara.gov/dc-metro/rg-272/605417-key-persons/randle_linnie_mae/randle_linnie_mae-0017.jpg

The paper and tape sample has me questioning why it has folds in it the way it does...? Attempt to make a flap? Why is the paper torn like that? Where is the other half of the paper they ripped this from? Was this ripped from something that was folded already? Like it had been wrapped around a book carton for shipping?

 
 
Kraft paper folded to illustrate the folds of Commission Exhibit No. 140 when it was received in the FBI.
 
 
 
What were they making paper airplanes or was this an assassination origami class? 
 
From Greg Parker~
 
The fascinating thing about his study is that it appears that not only did the Dallas Police not photograph the bag where they say they found it, but they do not appear to have photographed it at all until November 26th! This, of course, brings even further doubt on the aforementioned fingerprint evidence. The DPD did not lift or photograph any such evidence while they had the bag. And according to FBI agent Gordon Shanklin's inventory, the bag was not sent to Washington on the evening of the assassination. (The Third Decade, Vol. 1 No. 2, p. 12) Once it got there, the FBI had to do three different tests in order to pull off one index finger fingerprint and one palmprint. (WC Vol. IV pgs. 3-4) The bag then returned to Dallas, appears to be a different bag than the one sent. If so, how did the palmprint and index fingerprint get on it? In other words, which bag was the print evidence on?
 
As Speer notes, the Dallas Police could not tell a consistent story on what was discovered first, the bag or the rifle. They could not tell a consistent story on who dusted the rifle. Lt. Day says he did this on the scene, but no one on the scene backs him on this. Others say it was Det. Studebaker who dusted the bag.

What if Fritz and company handed the bag to Lee. If it was folded
 
No worries Mick! Here is the corrected statement by Wesley, "...Lee um, on his own he decided to come down to the house, where I live with my Sister and Brother in Law and three children. And I was eating, um breakfast. And my Mother was there, ah ..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqaCPYCtKq4
 
Colin,
You trying the chicken and egg game with the rifle and bag? What if LMR does not see LHO at all till Essie Mae says who is that man in the window. This makes the most sense. LHO would be standing there in the drive way waiting for Wes. No package seen.

Perhaps LMR does go to the door to see if LHO wants to wait for BWF inside. At one time Wesley does mention Lee coming inside the kitchen and Wes speaking to him. Can we find where Wes says Lee was inside and were Wes says Lee never came in!? I am sure he flip flopped like a halibut on this!

Anyhow that phone call or conversation between LMR and BWF about the bag would need a crystal ball not a phone. I mean how the heck would the Frazier Randle team know the play book would require bringing the rifle that day? And require a paper sack?

And that sack needed to carry the broken down rifle as opposed to an fully assembled rifle? Of course the DPD helped by making and showing Wes a HUGE sack which looked like it could carry a fully assembled rifle. That always bugged me.
 
How did those two know what to say before anyone knew what would be in play...? Okay there is a bag brought out at 3 pm but was the plan to have the assassin carry in the sack in that morning?

Why so close to the big event. Was this where they needed Wes. Needed a sack carrying commie to ride in on an Friday.
Is this a DPD deal, take it or fry kinda deal offered by the cops to Wes and Linnie, and a DA whom was know for getting 'convictions' of almost a hundred percent in death penalty cases. Tell us about a bag or we keep you for 48 hours and build a case kinda deal. Wes could say they were pogo sticks Lee said he was bringing for the kids at Beckley and no one was going to argue this. So rods it was. The stuff Wes mumbles about being with Lee and they measured just seems like they had Lee and Wes together in the same room, measuring bags, maybe not a 'lineup'?

Wes talking about Lee saying your the one who drove, could be more of Lee asking Wes to confirm Lee's lunch sack was not 36" long. You drove Wes you should know I didn't carry a rifle in to work.
 
The Brennan Mystery lineup would be a good fit if this all took place at the same time.
 
 
 
Wesley continues to say he wishes he could clear up the rifle in the bag issue. WTF? Wesley, why the heck would you still be confused about this? For Pete's sake you said he had a two foot sack. The rifle was not two feet long. Pretty much un fogs that mystery. Yet Wes will keep up a charade about rods and rifles. Please!

I can see a curtain rod story post arrest. Linnie would not need to be in on this part ahead of time but could be soley in Wes' mind as a reason not only for the bag, but also the off schedule trip to Irving...

I know Linnie mentions she hears from Wes about the rods in her WC testimony but when is the earliest Linnie speaks of the rod story? If it matters, again she can claim ignorance on this matter.

The thing with Wes's car is the back door. It doesn't lock. This allows anyone access to his vehicle. If anything was left in Wes' car then anyone could come along later and get in. Did Lee even know this though. If Lee carried no packages to and fro he surely had no need to open the back door.

Has anyone tried to stick a broken down 40" MC rifle under a '54 Chevy rear seat?

Oswald rightly claimed no ownership of a rifle. The Kleins 40" fiasco is exculpatory anyway you examine it. Oswald claims his lunch was brought in a bag, paper sack could have been as big as a grocery bag. No evidence from the lunchroom trash was recovered, no other bags were recovered from the TSBD besides the chicken lunch sack. Did they look for a carton. A carton or cardboard case, as Linnie described rather than a bag.
 
Frazier stands by his story.
 
"I don’t know how the rifle got in the building," he said last week, adding: "They kept trying to get me to change my testimony."

How about Wesley's lunch sack. Was it made from crinkly paper like you might find in any places shipping department? 

Did Linnie Mae have special lunch sacks for Wesley's lunches, like you might buy by the hundred? Or was Wes' sack a simple grocery bag.

We need a whole thread on the list of questions for Wesley. ????????????????? Wesley Thread ????????????????????

Cheers!
 
PS: I thought you all would like the string on this package!