Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

So when Wes is asked by Jarman edit: Given's "Where is your rider?" it must be as Wes drove past with no LHO riding to work, no curtian rods or short bag.

Ed, I hadn't contemplated the drive-by before now.

Interesting.

Mick Purdy

I believe Givens is the key to knowing exactly where Lee was at work on Friday morning and at what time, and Given's also provides a time stamp for Wes and his whereabouts too. IMO Givens proves the two, Lee and Wes were separated and did not arrive at work together.

Consider, Givens observes Lee at 7.45 am in the Domino room reading a paper.

Given’s floated between the Houston Nth ware house and the Elm street warehouse as required.

Givens is witnessed by Shields at around 8.00 am down at the Houston Nth building at a window on the 2nd floor. (where he yells to Wes "where’s your rider") This is important IMO.

Givens yelled "where's your rider" because he had already seen Wes's rider inside the TSBD

What does this all mean?

IMHO it shows that Givens had spotted Lee in the Domino room at 7.45 am reading a newspaper, and then went down to the Nth Houston warehouse to discover what his duties for the day would be, most likely from Shields and arrived there at around 7.50 am.

IMO at around 7.55 am or there abouts Wes Frazier was observed on his own (HSCA Shields) walking through the parking lot by both Shields and Givens.

Givens independently observed Oswald inside the Elm St Building at 7.45 am and witnessed Frazier at around 7.55-8.00 am in the car park walking on his own to the Elm St Building

In my opinion, this almost certainly suggests in an extremely persuasive way that Wes was indeed on his own in that car park and that Lee was already inside the building, reading the paper in the Domino room.

This still very much stands I believe either with the drive-by or the walk.

You think Ed?

Ed Ledoux

Thanks Stan! Yes Houston we do have a problem...

Mick I read that the window was on the second floor of the Houston warehouse.

Thanks for the clarification on Jarman vs Givens. Though Shields states he did not see whom yelled out, as he was on the floor (main warehouse floor) and doesn't know whom it was that yelled out from the second floor, we can assume it was Givens. When pressed Shields does state he thinks it was Givens. Givens worked at both the warehouse and TSBD. Shields specifically said he, Givens, was at the warehouse that morning, and that he had started at the TSBD then went to the warehouse, was at the warehouse for this incident, and Givens checked in at the warehouse every morning.

Yet it was Jarman that Shields states tells him about the riderless Wes and the drop off at the TSBD, quote "Jarman, them, and all the fellows")

Whether it was that morning or afternoon when Sheilds gets filled in on this information from 'Jarman and all the fellows' is not disclosed. Yet Shields has the boys telling him about the package that Lee had and that it was said to be venitian blinds that Lee was going to have cleaned. Again Shields is not asked when he had this conversation or learned from the boys about the blinds. Of importance is when Shields states Oswald ran upstairs after the shooting, he is asked where he got that information, the testimony reads:

"Sudan - the policeman upstairs" which is a bad transcription of either Susan or something like Susan.

Now opposed to Wes, being taught not to move, we have a LHO running upstairs to see what happened per Shields.
A good Marine would face danger not run from it, and Lee or I would go investigate if there was in fact something to investigate. Seems the others on the steps and in front of the TSBD did not think shots came from the TSBD, if they did they too were all good Marines.

Prayer Man aka Oswald could have followed Baker inside, gone up to see what was happening, maybe stop for a soda on the way back down and walk past Reid during this trip (or she is a half-truther)? Reid if to be believed knows the president has been shot within seconds and enters the building and withing two minutes is relaying that info to Oswald. What if it were reversed?

The best part of Shields testimony in front of the HSCA was that JD and BRW were on the sixth floor with LHO and LHO was going to stay up on six and watch from the window. Not only is this ridiculous on its face, but that both Bonnie Ray and Jack each told Edward Shields told Shields the same exact thing.

Anyways Mick the yeller of the comment, if it was Givens, could have been yelling out the second floor of the Houston street warehouse at either Wes driving past or when he got out of the car. The way Wes takes a route through the railroad yards and across the tracks away from Houston street is what leads me to believe he was yelled at while he drove past. Wes very well could have heard this and shouted back as he got out of the car, alone. Works either way really.

Given’s floated between the Houston Nth ware house and the Elm street warehouse as required. Givens is witnessed by Shields at around 8.00 am down at the Houston Nth building at a window on the 2nd floor. (where he yells to Wes "where’s your rider") This is important IMO. Actually Shields does not see whom yelled out the window. He guesses it was Givens.
Givens yelled "where's your rider" because he had already seen Wes's rider inside the TSBD Agreed!

What does this all mean?

IMHO it shows that Givens had spotted Lee in the Domino room at 7.45 am reading a newspaper, and then went down to the Nth Houston warehouse to discover what his duties for the day would be, most likely from Shields and arrived there at around 7.50 am.

This fits with a late arriving Wes. This fits a LHO being at work before 7:50. 
How he got there is the question.
A) Wes gave him a ride and Lee wanted dropped of at the TSBD.
B) Wes was late, and Lee obtained a ride from someone else.

It would help to clarify if that is the Houston Street warehouse seen in the film. If so it would seem it should be on Wes's (drivers) side of the car as he drives past. As Wes takes Record to Mckinney then turns left onto Houston and drives south to the parking lot across from the warehouse. Yet in the film we have this warehouse on the passenger side.




In the film the warehouse is on the passenger side... Hmmm 

Mick Purdy

Thanks Ed.

It's all looking quite a mess for Wesley. Any way you look at it.

Cheers mate.

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

No problem Mick.

Looking again at that invoice, I'm quite surprised at just how detailed the description of the weapon is - why mention such things as the peep sight and the strap rings? No serial number?

Surely just "British Enfield, P4, Mk I" with a serial number would have sufficed?

I wonder why no serial number?

Was it (and the ammo) returned to BWF?

Mick Purdy

"Confiscated Evidence"

Really?

Mick Purdy

Ed Ledoux, March 17, 2015, Dallas Transit Transfers
 
When I was looking at it I thought it was a school assignment, write to someone in the newspaper. Good Timmy you picked the Bus Man.
But then I read the article is about who is next to give the WC testimony. Thus Cecil is due up next.
And Cecil McWatters is underlined.
 
Its a pretty idle threat if there was one, I mean there just happens to be another article on that page about a bus crash.
Seems very literate of the illiterate writer to include that portion if it was a veiled threat. No underlining of the bus crash , etc.
And You Next Maybe seemd like a kid wanting to share the article and ask if he was next.
 
A threat would be YOU MAYBE NEXT and an arrow to the bus crash...though it does not state if the Bogata death road Bus driver survived.
 
Although a Markham relative could be reponsible.
 
But lets not pass up the most important part of the article,
 
"An FBI agent - whose name was not released - identified a container that was found in the book building - evidently the one that held the rifle..."
"...Mrs. Randle saw them leave since she lives near a house where Oswald was staying...." Makes me think Linnie was saying the opposite of what she told the WC. She told the WC she did not see them leave. The article gives me the impression that Linnie saw Wes pick up Lee at the Paines from a "distant" observation rather than the story she and Wes gave. Poor Essie Mae had to be coached as to what to say and still got the hands empty/carrying a bag part...drats. Well two outa three ain't bad.
Could be nothing, but Linnie swears she never saw Wes and Lee leave.
Yet Linnie gives that curious description of a Package Covered in Brown Paper.
A gun carton is usually how a gun is shipped in the mail or even when purchased new in a store.
Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday---I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.
Mr. BALL. And did they box them up?
Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes.
Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased.
Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?
Mr. CASTER. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there---and Mr. Roy Truly. The only people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository workers there in the shipping department
Mr. BALL. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there?
Mr. CASTER. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter.
Mr. BALL. In the warehouse?
Mr. CASTER. We were there in the hall--just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right.
Mr. BALL. And did you take the guns out of the carton?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle them?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody else handle the guns?
Mr. CASTER. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive.
Mr. BALL. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it.
Mr. CASTER Well, it couldn't have been more than to minutes.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that?
Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that?
Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home.
Here we have Rose telling us what Linnie Mae Randle said to Adamcik about the bag.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/14/1462-002.gif
"It was Long Wrapped in Paper or a BOX"
 
What did Adamcik tell the WC about Linnie and the bag/box?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box.
Of course Wes had plenty of time to go home or elsewhere, he had left the TSBD without waiting around for the roll call. A roll call he not only was not listed on he also hung around for "a few minutes after"...yeah sure got a witness Wes?
Then where Wes? He stutters a bit when asked about this. He has to stop a think, then says he did NOT go directly home...What does that mean? Did he go Indirectly home?
He may have gone home, talked to Linnie, made up a story which he told her and she bought it, and then headed to the hospital.
Linnie would throw off the cops with a game of 'Where's Wesley', similar to Where's Waldo minus the stocking cap.
This will slow or stall for enough time till Wes gets to the hospital, by telling the DPD to go to a Dallas hospital rather than stop by the Irving one.
How Linnie would not know which hospital the old man was in is another mystery. Perhaps he was transferred? Of course if your transferred the transferring hospital would know whom you are and where they transferred you to.
Was Linnie never asked about this error?
The cops, Rose Stovall Adamcik, make it sound like they got back to DPD made a call to Parkland.
Parkland says something like they don't have a patient by that name I assume from what the Rose Stovall Adamcik officers claim, so they assume I assume that Wes went to the Irving Medical Center and call it next.
They get lucky, the second try, and find the patient and thus Where is Wes.
Good guess work, or Parkland said they transferred that patient to Irving medical?
 
It could very well be Wes gave Lee a ride home.
Perhaps to a back alley Beckley safehouse.
Wes does have missing time.
Is also missing from that roll call list.
Lee needed a lift to Oak Cliff or to the Texas Theater.
Enter Wes.
Lee and Wes both "don't think there will be any more work" so they both leave.
Put two and two together...
 
Was the bus and cab story a cover for Wes the driver?

And the hits just keep comin'
 
Wes is as good as done, thanks to your efforts Ed.

If you don't mind I might swing this one over to where's your rider.

Mick Purdy

Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Home or the hospital Wes?

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Home or the hospital Wes?

Terry Martin

Interesting how detailed Wes has the conga line, dancing from one policeman to the next, showing identification before being given permission to flee.

Why is it then that no one has his name on any list?

Sounds as if he got the "conga line" description from others and to adhere to ALL the varying accounts he made it into the conga line of various policeman when it was probably only one.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Home or the hospital Wes?

Terry Martin

Interesting how detailed Wes has the conga line, dancing from one policeman to the next, showing identification before being given permission to flee.

Why is it then that no one has his name on any list?

Sounds as if he got the "conga line" description from others and to adhere to ALL the varying accounts he made it into the conga line of various policeman when it was probably only one.

Mick Purdy
 
This from Roll call Remedy.
 
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you anymore, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
 
Bullshit Wes!
~~~~~~~~ 

Spot on as usual Terry.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

So when Wes is asked by Jarman edit: Given's "Where is your rider?" it must be as Wes drove past with no LHO riding to work, no curtian rods or short bag.

Ed, I hadn't contemplated the drive-by before now.

Interesting.

Mick Purdy

I believe Givens is the key to knowing exactly where Lee was at work on Friday morning and at what time, and Given's also provides a time stamp for Wes and his whereabouts too. IMO Givens proves the two, Lee and Wes were separated and did not arrive at work together.

Consider, Givens observes Lee at 7.45 am in the Domino room reading a paper.

Given’s floated between the Houston Nth ware house and the Elm street warehouse as required.

Givens is witnessed by Shields at around 8.00 am down at the Houston Nth building at a window on the 2nd floor. (where he yells to Wes "where’s your rider") This is important IMO.

Givens yelled "where's your rider" because he had already seen Wes's rider inside the TSBD

What does this all mean?

IMHO it shows that Givens had spotted Lee in the Domino room at 7.45 am reading a newspaper, and then went down to the Nth Houston warehouse to discover what his duties for the day would be, most likely from Shields and arrived there at around 7.50 am.

IMO at around 7.55 am or there abouts Wes Frazier was observed on his own (HSCA Shields) walking through the parking lot by both Shields and Givens.

Givens independently observed Oswald inside the Elm St Building at 7.45 am and witnessed Frazier at around 7.55-8.00 am in the car park walking on his own to the Elm St Building

In my opinion, this almost certainly suggests in an extremely persuasive way that Wes was indeed on his own in that car park and that Lee was already inside the building, reading the paper in the Domino room.

This still very much stands I believe either with the drive-by or the walk.

You think Ed?

Ed Ledoux

Thanks Stan! Yes Houston we do have a problem...

Mick I read that the window was on the second floor of the Houston warehouse.

Thanks for the clarification on Jarman vs Givens. Though Shields states he did not see whom yelled out, as he was on the floor (main warehouse floor) and doesn't know whom it was that yelled out from the second floor, we can assume it was Givens. When pressed Shields does state he thinks it was Givens. Givens worked at both the warehouse and TSBD. Shields specifically said he, Givens, was at the warehouse that morning, and that he had started at the TSBD then went to the warehouse, was at the warehouse for this incident, and Givens checked in at the warehouse every morning.

Yet it was Jarman that Shields states tells him about the riderless Wes and the drop off at the TSBD, quote "Jarman, them, and all the fellows")

Whether it was that morning or afternoon when Sheilds gets filled in on this information from 'Jarman and all the fellows' is not disclosed. Yet Shields has the boys telling him about the package that Lee had and that it was said to be venitian blinds that Lee was going to have cleaned. Again Shields is not asked when he had this conversation or learned from the boys about the blinds. Of importance is when Shields states Oswald ran upstairs after the shooting, he is asked where he got that information, the testimony reads:

"Sudan - the policeman upstairs" which is a bad transcription of either Susan or something like Susan.

Now opposed to Wes, being taught not to move, we have a LHO running upstairs to see what happened per Shields.
A good Marine would face danger not run from it, and Lee or I would go investigate if there was in fact something to investigate. Seems the others on the steps and in front of the TSBD did not think shots came from the TSBD, if they did they too were all good Marines.

Prayer Man aka Oswald could have followed Baker inside, gone up to see what was happening, maybe stop for a soda on the way back down and walk past Reid during this trip (or she is a half-truther)? Reid if to be believed knows the president has been shot within seconds and enters the building and withing two minutes is relaying that info to Oswald. What if it were reversed?

The best part of Shields testimony in front of the HSCA was that JD and BRW were on the sixth floor with LHO and LHO was going to stay up on six and watch from the window. Not only is this ridiculous on its face, but that both Bonnie Ray and Jack each told Edward Shields told Shields the same exact thing.

Anyways Mick the yeller of the comment, if it was Givens, could have been yelling out the second floor of the Houston street warehouse at either Wes driving past or when he got out of the car. The way Wes takes a route through the railroad yards and across the tracks away from Houston street is what leads me to believe he was yelled at while he drove past. Wes very well could have heard this and shouted back as he got out of the car, alone. Works either way really.

Given’s floated between the Houston Nth ware house and the Elm street warehouse as required. Givens is witnessed by Shields at around 8.00 am down at the Houston Nth building at a window on the 2nd floor. (where he yells to Wes "where’s your rider") This is important IMO. Actually Shields does not see whom yelled out the window. He guesses it was Givens.
Givens yelled "where's your rider" because he had already seen Wes's rider inside the TSBD Agreed!

What does this all mean?

IMHO it shows that Givens had spotted Lee in the Domino room at 7.45 am reading a newspaper, and then went down to the Nth Houston warehouse to discover what his duties for the day would be, most likely from Shields and arrived there at around 7.50 am.

This fits with a late arriving Wes. This fits a LHO being at work before 7:50. 
How he got there is the question.
A) Wes gave him a ride and Lee wanted dropped of at the TSBD.
B) Wes was late, and Lee obtained a ride from someone else.

It would help to clarify if that is the Houston Street warehouse seen in the film. If so it would seem it should be on Wes's (drivers) side of the car as he drives past. As Wes takes Record to Mckinney then turns left onto Houston and drives south to the parking lot across from the warehouse. Yet in the film we have this warehouse on the passenger side.




In the film the warehouse is on the passenger side... Hmmm 

Mick Purdy

Anyways Mick the yeller of the comment, if it was Givens, could have been yelling out the second floor of the Houston street warehouse at either Wes driving past or when he got out of the car. The way Wes takes a route through the railroad yards and across the tracks away from Houston street is what leads me to believe he was yelled at while he drove past. Wes very well could have heard this and shouted back as he got out of the car, alone. Works either way really.

Given’s floated between the Houston Nth ware house and the Elm street warehouse as required. Givens is witnessed by Shields at around 8.00 am down at the Houston Nth building at a window on the 2nd floor. (where he yells to Wes "where’s your rider") This is important IMO. Actually Shields does not see whom yelled out the window. He guesses it was Givens.

You're right Ed, he does only think this is what's happened but then punctuates the end of the sentence with "Yeah, that was it" Is it possible he came to realise that was indeed what happened and said so out loud? Givens yelled "where's your rider" because he had already seen Wes's rider inside the TSBD Agreed!

What does this all mean?

IMHO it shows that Givens had spotted Lee in the Domino room at 7.45 am reading a newspaper, and then went down to the Nth Houston warehouse to discover what his duties for the day would be, most likely from Shields and arrived there at around 7.50 am. This fits with a late arriving Wes. This fits a LHO being at work before 7:50.

How he got there is the question.
A) Wes gave him a ride and Lee wanted dropped of at the TSBD. This is interesting because if this were true (and I don't believe it is for a second) then Wes's official testimony of the walk into the building that morning becomes more fictional and deceitful than even I could have imagined. In my mind If Wes dropped Lee off at the front door then surely he would've just stated that for the record. It's certainly worthy of contemplation though. Anything is in this case.
B) Wes was late, and Lee obtained a ride from someone else. I really like B) Ed, Wes was late and Lee was early. There are oh so many reasons I could come up with to support Wes being late that morning. Toss the coin Bill Randle or Ruth Paine driving Lee to work because Wes is running late.

I have transcribed (manually)  The Gilbride collection "Shields" page 14 HSCA I/V. It's a page which seems to offer so much in the way of contradicting Frazier.

HSCA (RG 233)
Mr. Sheilds Interview…….page 14

Mr. D: How about Wesley?
Mr. S: Wesley Frazier-right. You’re correct.
Mr. D: Alright. He rode to work with him.
Mr. S: Wesley Frazier-yes. And they would park their car right on Houston Street and get out and walk to the building on Elm Street.
Mr. D: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
Mr. S: No, I didn’t. They told me that he let him out at the building. He did not come on the parking lot.
Mr. M: You say they told you?
Mr. S: Yeah.
Mr. D: Who told you they….
Mr. S: Jarman, them, and all of the fellows that work there at the building.
Mr. D: Alright. This is just…Can you tell me a specific person that told you that?
Mr. S: Yeah. I think it was Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: “I dropped him off at the building”. Yeah, that was it.
Mr. M: You say he drove him to work. You used to see him in the parking lot?
Mr. S: Yes he come by that parking lot.
Mr. M: Did he drive him to work every day-that you can recall-or on certain days?
Mr. S: If I’m not mistaken I think he rode with Frazier every day he worked there-if I could recall.  

Stan Dane

Buell Wesley Frazier: the gift that keeps on Givens.

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

Buell Wesley Frazier: the gift that keeps on Givens.

Mick Purdy

Too too funny.......!

Actually hurt my ribs laughing so hard.

Mick Purdy



2515 W Fifth St Irving is Ruth's Paines house.

2519 W Fifth St Irving is where Mrs Dorothy Roberts resided.

We know from the postal inspectors report that Mrs. Roberts told C. P. Schneider another neighbour of the Paines that she saw Oswald with "Willie Randle" and that Oswald was carrying a package.

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00 pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)
 
Looking at the google earth map above we can see how this is completely possible.

If Wes was running late (for whatever reason), then its more than plausible that Bill Randle took up the slack and went down to the Paines house to collect Lee, and inform him that Wes was late and that he would be taking him into work.

And something else occurred to me, what if Robert's is right and did see Oswald walk from the Paines driveway with a package ( a lunch sack) one of those paper sacks that might have been just a little large for your lunch, and hop into Randle's car and head off to the TSBD with him.

Oswald says:

I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

In my mind this scenario is perfectly possible, and would reconcile Dorothy Roberts statement to C. P. Schneider.

Greg Parker

Mick, we may have covered this previously, not sure but all the neighbors were interviewed as to whether they'd seen Oswald that morning as he trudged over to the Randle abode. This included Roberts. They all said no. The proviso is that those interviews happened on Dec 1 and were done by the FBI.

If those interviews can be taken at face value, Roberts didn't actually see Randle driving Oswald anywhere. She has heard it from someone else. 

Whatever the case, this seems to have been the impetus for the FBI adding "Willie Randall" to their search of the scope.

Recall that early on the FBI went looking for the origins of the scope in the name of Willie Randle.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

Mick, we may have covered this previously, not sure but all the neighbors were interviewed as to whether they'd seen Oswald that morning as he trudged over to the Randle abode. This included Roberts. They all said no. The proviso is that those interviews happened on Dec 1 and were done by the FBI.

If those interviews can be taken at face value, Roberts didn't actually see Randle driving Oswald anywhere. She has heard it from someone else. 

Whatever the case, this seems to have been the impetus for the FBI adding "Willie Randall" to their search of the scope.

Recall that early on the FBI went looking for the origins of the scope in the name of Willie Randle.

Mick Purdy

Are we saying that Randle could not have driven Frazier to work? Or just that Roberts was stating hearsay? It doesn't seem to come across as hearsay from the report CE 1799. And yes I understand completely with regards to searching for Willie Randall/Randle, if they believed he drove Oswald to work on the 22nd. And makes perfect sens e to add his name to the search for the scope etc.

According to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6 pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning.

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00 pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p 44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

The way I'm reading D Roberts Greg, is she did see Oswald and Randle and together and passed that onto Schneider. Now whether that's reliable or not is a whole different matter.

Greg Parker

    Are we saying that Randle could not have driven Frazier to work?
 
Not in any way shape or form.

Mick Purdy

Mick, we may have covered this previously, not sure but all the neighbors were interviewed as to whether they'd seen Oswald that morning as he trudged over to the Randle abode. This included Roberts. They all said no. The proviso is that those interviews happened on Dec 1 and were done by the FBI.
 
If those interviews can be taken at face value, Roberts didn't actually see Randle driving Oswald anywhere. She has heard it from someone else.

Sorry if I wasn't clear before: I'm not for one moment suggesting she saw Lee walking around the neighbourhood with a large package. Far from it.

I completely get what you're saying here Greg, and that is Roberts tells the FBI along with all the other neighbours interviewed on the 1/12/63 that she didn't see Oswald with or without a package heading toward the Randle house. (for which at present I cannot seem to locate said doc) 

All I'm suggesting is that she is in the record on the 22nd Nov, 9 days earlier than the FBI reports as hearsay via Schneider as stating to him, she saw Oswald being driven to work by Willie Randle. 

Am I missing something here? It certainly sounds to me like she relayed to Schneider what she had seen.

Greg Parker
 
    Am I missing something here?
    It certainly sounds to me like she relayed to Schneider what she had seen.

Mick, it could be me that's missing something. I thought the PI report merely said she told Schneider that Willie had given him a lift - not that she had actually seen him do so. If she later denied to the FBI that she had actually seen him, and if she was telling the truth about that... then it follows that what she told Schneider was hearsay. That doesn't make it false, though.

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker
 
    Am I missing something here?
    It certainly sounds to me like she relayed to Schneider what she had seen.

Mick, it could be me that's missing something. I thought the PI report merely said she told Schneider that Willie had given him a lift - not that she had actually seen him do so. If she later denied to the FBI that she had actually seen him, and if she was telling the truth about that... then it follows that what she told Schneider was hearsay. That doesn't make it false, though.

Mick Purdy

They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning.

No you're not missing a thing:
It's a fact she only told them that "Willie Randle had driven Oswald to work that morning"
It was I who chose to read that as Roberts had seen what she told them.....
perhaps I'm wrong.....perhaps not...
For all we know she may have been mistaken completely....
or she was told by someone that is what happened...

I just think it's a little open??????

Smee

From Shields' HSCA testimony:
 
Mr. M: Did he drive him to work every day-that you can recall-or on certain days?
Mr. S: If I’m not mistaken I think he rode with Frazier every day he worked there-if I could recall.

This has always struck me as interesting - recall that pretty much no investigation was carried out as to how Oswald got to & from work on the days BWF didn't supposedly take him i.e. Monday morning & Friday evening. Does this mean that it was already known how LHO got back & forth to work on Monday evenings, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday mornings but that was one can of worms that nobody wanted opened!?!? Why not?

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

From Shields' HSCA testimony:
 
Mr. M: Did he drive him to work every day-that you can recall-or on certain days?
Mr. S: If I’m not mistaken I think he rode with Frazier every day he worked there-if I could recall.

This has always struck me as interesting - recall that pretty much no investigation was carried out as to how Oswald got to & from work on the days BWF didn't supposedly take him i.e. Monday morning & Friday evening. Does this mean that it was already known how LHO got back & forth to work on Monday evenings, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday mornings but that was one can of worms that nobody wanted opened!?!? Why not?

Mick Purdy

HSCA (RG 233)
Mr. Sheilds Interview…….page 14

Mr. D: How about Wesley?
Mr. S: Wesley Frazier-right. You’re correct.
Mr. D: Alright. He rode to work with him.
Mr. S: Wesley Frazier-yes. And they would park their car right on Houston Street and get out and walk to the building on Elm Street.
Mr. D: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
Mr. S: No, I didn’t. They told me that he let him out at the building. He did not come on the parking lot.
Mr. M: You say they told you?
Mr. S: Yeah.
Mr. D: Who told you they….
Mr. S: Jarman, them, and all of the fellows that work there at the building.
Mr. D: Alright. This is just…Can you tell me a specific person that told you that?
Mr. S: Yeah. I think it was Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: “I dropped him off at the building”. Yeah, that was it.
Mr. M: You say he drove him to work. You used to see him in the parking lot?
Mr. S: Yes he come by that parking lot.
Mr. M: Did he drive him to work every day-that you can recall-or on certain days?
Mr. S: If I’m not mistaken I think he rode with Frazier every day he worked there-if I could recall.

It's more than interesting in my opinion.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

From Shields' HSCA testimony:
 
Mr. M: Did he drive him to work every day-that you can recall-or on certain days?
Mr. S: If I’m not mistaken I think he rode with Frazier every day he worked there-if I could recall.

This has always struck me as interesting - recall that pretty much no investigation was carried out as to how Oswald got to & from work on the days BWF didn't supposedly take him i.e. Monday morning & Friday evening. Does this mean that it was already known how LHO got back & forth to work on Monday evenings, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday mornings but that was one can of worms that nobody wanted opened!?!? Why not?

Mick Purdy

HSCA (RG 233)
Mr. Sheilds Interview…….page 14

Mr. D: How about Wesley?
Mr. S: Wesley Frazier-right. You’re correct.
Mr. D: Alright. He rode to work with him.
Mr. S: Wesley Frazier-yes. And they would park their car right on Houston Street and get out and walk to the building on Elm Street.
Mr. D: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
Mr. S: No, I didn’t. They told me that he let him out at the building. He did not come on the parking lot.
Mr. M: You say they told you?
Mr. S: Yeah.
Mr. D: Who told you they….
Mr. S: Jarman, them, and all of the fellows that work there at the building.
Mr. D: Alright. This is just…Can you tell me a specific person that told you that?
Mr. S: Yeah. I think it was Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: “I dropped him off at the building”. Yeah, that was it.
Mr. M: You say he drove him to work. You used to see him in the parking lot?
Mr. S: Yes he come by that parking lot.
Mr. M: Did he drive him to work every day-that you can recall-or on certain days?
Mr. S: If I’m not mistaken I think he rode with Frazier every day he worked there-if I could recall.

It's more than interesting in my opinion.

Greg Parker

It's downright damning.

You have to ask why some of the stuff that came out of the Shields/Jarman/Norman interviews received no follow up. by the HSCA. 

Though I'd be willing to hazard a guess...

Colin Crow

I would caution anything associated with Givens. Am I right in thinking it is Givens who claims to have called out? Shields is repeating what he heard from others? If so, just remember the cigarette story and Givens claiming that Oswald was riding up and down the elevators suspiciously that morning. Doing no work. That guy repeatedly lied after Oswald's death. I assume the idea is that Oswald could "stash" the rifle unseen if he got out the car at the TSBD.

Stan Dane wrote:Colin Crow

I would caution anything associated with Givens. Am I right in thinking it is Givens who claims to have called out? Shields is repeating what he heard from others? If so, just remember the cigarette story and Givens claiming that Oswald was riding up and down the elevators suspiciously that morning. Doing no work. That guy repeatedly lied after Oswald's death. I assume the idea is that Oswald could "stash" the rifle unseen if he got out the car at the TSBD.

Mick Purdy

I hear you Colin, and I agree with you about Given's. But what we have with Shields I/V IMO doesn't include Given's statements making things so.

Shields in some cases refers to others but also unambiguously refers to other things in 1st person too. For the very reasons you have mentioned I have never relied on Given's for confirmation of events....I have however used him occasionally to collaborate something which may have happened, i.e. I have no reason to doubt Givens observing Oswald at 7:45-50 am in the Domino room.

I am treading carefully.

Ed Ledoux


Stan needs a warning label: "MAY CAUSE INJURY DUE TO EXCESSIVE LAUGHTER, CHUCKLE AT YOUR OWN RISK!" 

I still can not believe no one went and interviewed JD. Here is the distance from warehouse to depository Mick:

Mr. BALL. That's how far from the building that is at the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. SHIELDS. Well, I'd say about three blocks down to this old building. 

The time on the clock atop the TSBD read 7:54 in the recreation film as Wes drives under the triple underpass. He still has to drive down Record, after waiting to turn from Main, then drive all the way down six blocks to McKinney turn back up Houston a couple blocks and then park. That 3 block walk takes about 4 minutes. Is it just me or do you find that if Lee had ridden with Wes he was going to make Lee late. But we know Lee was there before Wes.

So Wes comes up with various fig leaf excuses for why he did not enter with Lee...charging battery...Lee walked so fast...he stopped to watch welders...he stopped to watched trains being hitched up....

Wes is more than lying Mick, IMO.  He is covering for something, either not bringing Lee to work as described, or being involved in 'the cover up."

Stan Dane wrote:Ed Ledoux


Stan needs a warning label: "MAY CAUSE INJURY DUE TO EXCESSIVE LAUGHTER, CHUCKLE AT YOUR OWN RISK!" 

I still can not believe no one went and interviewed JD. Here is the distance from warehouse to depository Mick:

Mr. BALL. That's how far from the building that is at the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. SHIELDS. Well, I'd say about three blocks down to this old building. 

The time on the clock atop the TSBD read 7:54 in the recreation film as Wes drives under the triple underpass. He still has to drive down Record, after waiting to turn from Main, then drive all the way down six blocks to McKinney turn back up Houston a couple blocks and then park. That 3 block walk takes about 4 minutes. Is it just me or do you find that if Lee had ridden with Wes he was going to make Lee late. But we know Lee was there before Wes.

So Wes comes up with various fig leaf excuses for why he did not enter with Lee...charging battery...Lee walked so fast...he stopped to watch welders...he stopped to watched trains being hitched up....

Wes is more than lying Mick, IMO.  He is covering for something, either not bringing Lee to work as described, or being involved in 'the cover up."

Mick Purdy

Sometimes in a moment of clarity, (there ain't many these days) you know things seem so crystal clear. That's why I'm absolutely convinced Wes was late that morning. And Lee was early. I absolutely believe they arrived separately that morning at the TSBD.

I agree 100% Wes is hiding the truth, and probably because he was involved in the cover up and or framing of Lee. The lie fits the crime IMHO.