Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part A

First topic message reminder :

This is full rebuild of the hugely popular thread created by Mick Purdy at the Webs forum in February 2015. – Stan

Mick Purdy

I believe Buell Wesley Frazier lied about seeing Lee Oswald with a package, a package two feet long on the morning of Friday November 22nd 1963.

I believe Linnie Mae Randle lied about seeing Oswald with a package, a package 27 inches long on the Morning of 22nd Nov 1963.

I believe both Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier fabricated the curtain rod story.

I think there is ample evidence in their WC testimonies, affidavits and FBI interviews to support each of these contentions.

I have also come to the conclusion (after having a closer look at the testimonies and the various reports), that Buell Wesley Frazier lied about another crucially important matter that day. In my opinion the totality of the evidence suggests Frazier lied with regards to driving Lee Harvey Oswald to work that fateful morning.

Take a moment to reflect upon the importance of that drive to the case against Oswald before reading on.

The story was very likely fabricated not merely to have Oswald appear to carry a sack into work – but also to create the illusion of Oswald carrying a rifle. This conclusion is drawn from a study of the WC testimonies of both Randle and Frazier regarding Oswald, the package and his alleged arrival at the Randle residence that morning. Ten or more neighbours considered to be best placed to spot pedestrian movement in the vicinity were interviewed by the FBI as to whether they saw Oswald carrying a package from the Paine’s home to the Randle home. To a person, they stated they had not seen Oswald that morning – with or without any suspicious package which the police on more than one occasion, described as being similar in size and shape to a rifle case.

Frazier’s WC and Shaw trial testimony regarding the journey into work with Oswald appears rehearsed. Any questions relating to the “sack” or what was said in the car on the way in is met with what sounds very much like scripted answers that have become Frazier’s Lore. The sack, the curtain rods, the weather, and my favourite, Oswald’s kids, are IMO all part of the charade. Away from the small talk and banter about kids, he constantly flip flopped on testimony in a manner redolent with patterns of deceit.

Frazier’s WC testimony with regard to his arrival at work is at complete odds with the HSCA interview of Edward Shields. Though it could be argued Shields, unlike Frazier, was not under oath, and therefore is a witness of lesser value, the fact is that Shields was as close as you can get to a disinterested party merely reporting for the first what he had heard. Sadly, it took well over a decade for him to receive any relevant questions. In any event, it is highly unlikely he ever realized the import of his information.
  
From the HSCA interview of Shields
 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.
DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?
SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.

 
To summarize what we have so far… no one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald walk to the Frazier residence that morning. No one claimed to see Lee Harvey Oswald in Frazier’s car that morning – except Frazier himself. No one saw Lee Harvey Oswald that morning with any package except Wes and Linnie Mae.

Frazier also testified that he let Oswald get well ahead on the walk from the car park to the loading dock entrance. But in the form of Edward Shields, we have a potential reason for Frazier to construct that story.

In the above two short paragraphs alone, we have three “firsts” – firsts that are needed for the official story to hold. Oswald had never walked to the Randle residence for his lift before. He was always picked up at the Paine house. Oswald had never taken a long package to work before. Oswald had never neglected to take a packed lunch before. Oswald had never even needed a lift on a Friday morning before. Frazier had never let Oswald walk ahead of him from the car park before. They had always walked in together. That is a lot of “firsts” – all reliant on a very tight little knit of witnesses outside of which, no corroboration exists. Nobody else, not one person can verify Frazier’s version of events in Irving except for his sister. At the other end of the journey at the TSBD parking lot, we rely solely on Frazier. It beggars belief that there are no other witnesses. That walk was at least 2 and 1/2 blocks long. Shields and Givens smash his fairy-tale apart.

This “story” IMO has the same stench wafting around it, like the rest of the days fables contain.

The bus trip, the cab ride, the sack, the run, the walk, the ducking, the escape, the 2nd floor, the first floor, the sixth floor, the lunch bag, the rifle case, the back seat, the front seat, the white jacket the grey jacket, the gun, the revolver ……………
 
An alternative scenario

Postal Inspectors interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider at 2707 West Fifth St in the early evening of November 22. Mr Schneider confirmed he had seen Lee Oswald in front of the 2515 residence at approximately 6:00pm of the previous evening. He also stated that a neighbour, Mrs Ed Roberts of 2519 West Fifth St had told him that Willie Randle, 2439 West Fifth St, had driven Oswald to work on the morning of November 22, and that Oswald was carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle. (CD 296)

What sort of investigation is it that receives hearsay evidence such as the above and fails to follow up to confirm or refute it with the parties involved? WE are indeed, expected to believe that no follow up was done, because there is no evidence any follow up was done. Yet, there is actually circumstantial evidence that the authorities did believe that Randle was the man who gave the lift because that same night, the FBI was attempting to trace the origins of the scope in the names of Lee Oswald OR Willie Randall [sic]. (CD 87) It is virtually impossible to believe that the FBI would act on hearsay alone, when a few houses from where the hearsay was received, lived the person who had passed on that hearsay. You would almost have to believe that this “Willie Randle” lead was followed up and that it checked out given the ease with which such a lead could be checked out. To further complicate matters, the DPD already had Oswald’s alleged driver in custody. If Frazier truly was the driver, there would no reason at all to be checking on “Willy Randle/Randall” as a co-conspirator!

Randle had arrived in Austin at about 7:00pm on what was said to be work-related business in company with co-worker named Berry Caster. (FBI 105-82555 Oswald HQ File, Section 32, p44) It is between a 3 and 4 hour drive from Irving to Austin, so it is far from impossible that “Willie” drove Lee to work that morning on the basis that Frazier had already left.

Because of the holes in the official investigation, some conjecture is needed if we are to try understand the mess we have been left. What follows is some of my conjecture.

Frazier left that morning on his own – with the throwdown M-C rifle. The call from Givens of “where’s your rider?” was code giving Frazier the all clear to bring “the package” in, or was code for simply it’s clear to come inside.

Since Lee had missed his ride, Willie Randle offered to give him one, but needed to borrow Ruth’s car since his own was full of work gear for the trip to Austin later on. This leads to Oswald’s statement in front of Roger Craig concerning Craig’s description of a certain station wagon that "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

Doesn’t that sound like someone talking about a car that was being driven by someone else?

I’d like to thank Greg Parker for his enormous support and encouragement.

Stan Dane

I used to believe that Wes' demeanor was the result of him knowing that Oswald was innocent but being intimidated into silence. Now, thanks to you, I believe that he was involved in this thing up to his eyebrows. It is indeed crystal clear. Now if we could only get him and that #$!*& Ruth Paine on the witness stand once again...

Mick Purdy

Quite the set of eyebrows.

Wes and Ruth..............they need to be spoken to ASAP!

Barto

Sylvia Maeger describes Charles Given's story as 'strange'
[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/D Disk/D Letter/Item 69.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/D%20Letter/Item%2069.pdf[/url]

Statement and analysis of Charles Givens
[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/W Disk/Witnesses/Item 15.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Witnesses/Item%2015.pdf[/url]

Roffman corresponce about change between transcript and printed version of testimony of Charles Givens
[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/G Disk/Givens Charles/Item 01.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/G%20Disk/Givens%20Charles/Item%2001.pdf[/url]

Death notice C.D. Givens
[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/D Disk/Dolce Joseph Dr/Item 07.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dolce%20Joseph%20Dr/Item%2007.pdf[/url]

More on Givens statements by Peter Dale Scott in a Case Closed book review
[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/S Disk/Scott Peter Dale/Item 03.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2003.pdf[/url]

Barto

 
  
 

Mick Purdy

These are all good points which may help us understand what Givens was up to that day.

Givens is and always has been an interesting character amongst the TSBD line up. For a while, I'm not so certain now, I thought he was involved with Wes in that parking lot charade. I am still toying with the idea Givens being a lookout for Wes in the car park that morning.....not sure.

Whatever the outcome he hasn't come across as someone whom is to be trusted.

Mick Purdy

Ed,

But we know Lee was there before Wes. So Wes comes up with various fig leaf excuses for why he did not enter with Lee...charging battery...Lee walked so fast...he stopped to watch welders...he stopped to watched trains being hitched up....
 
Wes is more than lying Mick, imo. He is covering for something, either not bringing Lee to work as described, or being involved in 'the cover up."

And why? For anyone contemplating that Wes may have dropped Lee off "at the building" you have to ask then why would he, fabricate, concoct, lie about his movements through the carpark for the record in the most convoluted way imaginable. The absurdity of this in my mind makes it impossible to contemplate.

As Ed has said, Wes is covering for something, and IMO those fig leaf excuses are the epicenter of the "Big Lie".
IMO, Wesley via his WC testimony with regards to the walk in to the rear entrance did all that he could through his words to place distance between himself and in his mind the illusionary Lee. He was at pains to tell all that he was never close enough to Lee so as to be seen together, by anyone. Thanks to Shields we know Oswald wasn't there......
And consider for a moment that its these lies from Buell Wesley Frazier which helped to create the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
A vision of Lee holding something parallel to his body, walking off and leaving Wes behind in a mad rush to get into that building with a sack under his arm, a dash to get into the rear entrance door, whilst Wesley dawdled behind, revving the car, watching the cars, observing the switchboxes, noticing some welders.

Please!

Stan Dane

Please indeed!

Mick Purdy

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=13&tab=page

They lied, he died!

Mick Purdy

I believe Shanklin reported Givens accurately, when he wrote:
 
Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."

Mick Purdy

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

It certainly sounds more than possible that Givens was telling the truth about observing Lee in the Domino Room at around 7.45 am to me.

Mick Purdy

I believe the following pieces of testimony and interviews on their own don’t amount to much when viewed in isolation and independently of one another. But when we place them side by side we see that these statements become an extremely powerful and persuasive indicator, that Buell Wesley Frazier did not drive Lee Harvey Oswald to work on the morning of Friday November 22nd.
 
This cannot be overstated in my opinion. This for me is a pivotal moment in proving the case for BWF lying about his version of the drive into work. I’m not sure whether it’s checkmate but for me it’s pretty damn near it. When this information is combined with all the other material on this thread then I believe the case for Wes driving Lee to work that morning has been proven to be demonstrably false.
 
From the HSCA interview of Shields
Page (14)
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
 
Page (15)
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.
 
Page (14)
SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...


Page (4)
Day: Alright. Now incidentally, what time were you due at work- what time did you leave?
SHIELDS: 8 o’clock and we get off at 4.30.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html
 
Shanklin FBI report Charles Douglas Givens



Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
 
Givens WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Jack Dougherty WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---when he first come into the door.
Mr. BALL - When he came in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands or arms?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, not that I could see of.
Mr. BALL - About what time of day was that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - That was about 8 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What door did he come in?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, he came in the back door.
Mr. BALL - Where were you then?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was---sitting on top of the wrapping table.

For me, when these pieces are viewed together as a whole, they knock Wesley story of the drive into work with Lee as his passenger out of the park. I think it shows quite dramatically how Lee was at work inside the TSBD at about 7.45 am reading a newspaper and that Wes was yet to arrive at work in the parking lot at around 8.00 am.

I realise it’s only my opinion and others may differ…..but for me the jig is up for Wesley.

Mick Purdy

I'm all Wes'd out.

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

Mick Purdy

Stan, please put "warnings" up before posting your handy work. We are hurting ourselves daily from your actions. There needs to be a presentation of a graphic or slide which warns all of us that these posts are coming.......

I mean really I count 3 broken ribs to date from the belly ache laughter....be fair!

Mick Purdy

Oh and did I mention I'm done? I'm totally Wes'd out.

Smee

Nice work Mick.

I must admit that I'm getting confused over Givens - Apparently, he reports to the TSBD first thing in the morning, then heads over to the Houston Street warehouse, then gets called back to the TSBD? Does he (or anyone else) talk about this anywhere? I mean, things like what time he left the TSBD, got to the Houston Street warehouse then went back to the TSBD etc. If he was part of the floor laying crew (from what I can see of it, the 22nd November wasn't the first day they started that work) why would he report to the TSBD, then go to the Houston Street warehouse, only to have to return to the TSBD? Also, he says that he left his lunch and coat in the Domino Room, after which he went over to Houston Street (not forgetting it was raining that morning)?

I'm a bit concerned about Shields' HSCA testimony as well - this is, what, 13 years later, and it seems to me that he's interweaving stuff he's heard, discussed or read about over the intervening period into his testimony.

Mick Purdy

I would ask you not be confused about Given's.....I have been very careful using anything he said or did. Shanklin's report is either written up late on the 22nd or sometime on the 23rd. It is credible IMO.

As for Givens and the domino room, when pieced together with the other info IMO it is crystal clear he saw Oswald in that DR at around 7.45 reading the paper. As for him being over at the Houston warehouse there's no need to be confused...he simply went down there after hanging his coat up.....IMO.

With regards to Sheilds I have read that HSCA interview over and over and I am convinced 100% that the statements I've used of his are accurate and that more importantly they refer to what he actually saw......not what he was told by others. I have purposely left those parts out. So I don't have any issues about that at all.

I am confident I'm right. But in the end its only an opinion. 

Thanks for your input mate I very much appreciate it.

Smee

Hi Mick,

I wasn't questioning you or your interpretation, I was just wondering about Givens' actions that morning. I agree that it is pretty much a certainty that Givens saw LHO in the DR at ~07:45 that morning. If you look at Givens' various affidavits and statements over the months following the 22nd, it seems fairly clear that his story was constantly being evolved to fit a particular scenario.

I'd like to find something more substantive regarding his movements between the TSBD and the HSW on the 22nd -  what time did he really leave the TSBD that morning to go over to the HSW and what time did he really get into the TSBD after returning from the HSW?

Seems to me like a few people disappeared into a time warp at various points on the 22nd.

Stan Dane wrote:Smee

Hi Mick,

I wasn't questioning you or your interpretation, I was just wondering about Givens' actions that morning. I agree that it is pretty much a certainty that Givens saw LHO in the DR at ~07:45 that morning. If you look at Givens' various affidavits and statements over the months following the 22nd, it seems fairly clear that his story was constantly being evolved to fit a particular scenario.

I'd like to find something more substantive regarding his movements between the TSBD and the HSW on the 22nd -  what time did he really leave the TSBD that morning to go over to the HSW and what time did he really get into the TSBD after returning from the HSW?

Seems to me like a few people disappeared into a time warp at various points on the 22nd.

Mick Purdy

Mate, I'm tough!

You can have a crack. I know you weren't questioning me or the interpretation. But feel free that's what this is about.

I'm just not so fussed about where the record might have Given's at various times of the day, what  I am extremely confident about is that Givens was at the DR at 7.45 am and he was with Shields at approximately 8 o clock. And the beauty is I'm not solely reliant on Givens statements alone. I think that's what I'm on about, I believe the above is proof or near as we can get that Oswald and Wes were NOT together when they came to work.

Which when we finally sit down and think about this we have opened a very large can of worms. Because the reality then is why would Wes Lie about taking Lee to work when in fact he did not. Now that's some question.

ROKC on mate!!!

Stan Dane wrote:Mick Purdy

I believe the following pieces of testimony and interviews on their own don’t amount to much when viewed in isolation and independently of one another. But when we place them side by side we see that these statements become an extremely powerful and persuasive indicator, that Buell Wesley Frazier did not drive Lee Harvey Oswald to work on the morning of Friday November 22nd.
 
This cannot be overstated in my opinion. This for me is a pivotal moment in proving the case for BWF lying about his version of the drive into work. I’m not sure whether it’s checkmate but for me it’s pretty damn near it. When this information is combined with all the other material on this thread then I believe the case for Wes driving Lee to work that morning has been proven to be demonstrably false.
 
From the HSCA interview of Shields
Page (14)
DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."
SHIELDS: Yes.
 
Page (15)
DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?
SHIELDS: No I didn’t.
 
Page (14)
SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...


Page (4)
Day: Alright. Now incidentally, what time were you due at work- what time did you leave?
SHIELDS: 8 o’clock and we get off at 4.30.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html
 
Shanklin FBI report Charles Douglas Givens



Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
 
Givens WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Jack Dougherty WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---when he first come into the door.
Mr. BALL - When he came in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him come in the door?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands or arms?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, not that I could see of.
Mr. BALL - About what time of day was that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL - That was about 8 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What door did he come in?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, he came in the back door.
Mr. BALL - Where were you then?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was---sitting on top of the wrapping table.

For me, when these pieces are viewed together as a whole, they knock Wesley story of the drive into work with Lee as his passenger out of the park. I think it shows quite dramatically how Lee was at work inside the TSBD at about 7.45 am reading a newspaper and that Wes was yet to arrive at work in the parking lot at around 8.00 am.

I realise it’s only my opinion and others may differ…..but for me the jig is up for Wesley.

Mick Purdy

I really believe in this scenario, and IMHO there cannot be too many reasons why Wes lied about the drive in and the package which he claimed Lee carried. The lie IMO must fit the crime ....so he's hiding something enormous.

Stan Dane

I'm with you, Mick!

Stan Dane wrote:Stan Dane

I'm with you, Mick!

Mick Purdy

I'm hoping others view the last post as I really sincerely believe it shows Wes and Lee were not together at the crucially important moment. The WC IMO used Frazier's false testimony to nail and hammer home its version of Lee as the deranged LN walking in solitude ahead of Wesley across the parking lot with a package under his arm held parallel to his body in an upright position... in a hurry to get it inside and hide it.

What was Wesley hiding and why would he lie about driving Lee to work? IMO it has to be all about placing the focus on Lee and distracting the focus from others, say for instance one Buell Wesley Frazier. It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that either Bill Randle or Ruth Paine gave Oswald the lift to work. While Wes was running late for work because he had other things to attend to. Pure speculation of course.

Thanks for the feed back Stan muchly appreciated.

Ed Ledoux

Bravo Mick!

Hope the ribs heal up before Stan posts again.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read?
Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look at it.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. Fellows bring it to work.
Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that somebody else brought to work?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one.
Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James Jarman would generally bring one.

So Givens WC testimony paints a picture of a late arrival on 11/22, or why else would CDG change his tune. Did he see Norman and Jarman in the DR reading their papers? Why wouldn't LHO read the paper that Norman or Jarman brought in that morning or any other morning. Note Givens distances himself from seeing LHO reading the previous days paper as he usually did. Seems Givens changed his testimony to help out Belin. What was Givens doing reading the paper after Lee if Lee had to go to work? Why not borrow Jarmans paper when he was through, why not read Normans when he was through? Very Fishy!!!

How is it that Lee arriving with Wes at around 7:55 would have any time to be reading papers in the morning? Either Wes was late that day or Lee was a speed reader.

Givens floated between warehouses. Why? To check orders at both locations? Or to read old newspapers and hang out in the bathroom till lunch... Givens is the gift that keeps on Given.

Mick has done EXCELLENT work on this thread and shown the official story has more holes than a swiss cheese target at a shooting gallery. Thanks mate!

Cheers!

Mick Purdy

Seems Givens changed his testimony to help out Belin.

Certainly does! And I believe it's as simple as that.

And, thank you Ed for taking the time to contribute to the thread and assisting in getting it to this point.

Stan Dane wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:Greg Parker

I tend to think BWF was used by his own family - it's just his degree of "wittingness" that I'm unsure of.

It was Shields HSCA testimony that led me to believe LHO had been staying with the Paines all along.  But if you add in the lack of solid evidence that he stayed at N Beckley - the utter absurdity of his alleged use of OH Lee,  the "coincidence" of H lee staying in room "O" along with the lack of any investigation into his supposed daily bus rides to and from work and an entirely different picture starts to emerge.

I know it has been acknowledged a number of times already, but I don't think it can said enough. The work of Ed, Lee and Mick in these areas has been outstanding -- as has the level of moral support and research help from other members.

We can work this out - maybe not fully - but if not, at least damn close.  What I'm really proud of is just the international flavor - GWB never met a Coalition of the Willing like this...

And I think/hope you'll all be surprised by how just well it will all fit together when more pieces are put in place.

Mick Purdy

Thanks Greg for your kind words, but its everyone here who should be thanked couldn't be done without the enormous efforts and assistance of the fantastic bunch here at ROKC.

"Wittingness of Wes" is that a great movie title or what?

That is so true Greg. It's the degree of involvement now, not If or maybe, not was he or wasn't he, no it's to what extent.

I'm with you I just have a gut feeling it's the family who placed him in this position......

In order of complicity in my mind Randle Bill, is #1 for me, with Linnie Mae coming in a close second. Now add to that mix Ruth Michael and possibly Dorothy....Well that was about all that was required IMO.

The question for me too, is did they coerce Wes with some sort of blackmail if he didn't play ball.

The whole move from Huntsville to Irving stinks IMO. Please, Wes gets a job filling orders 4 weeks prior to Lee arriving at the TSBD to do exactly the same job, and then Wes becomes his "shadow" for the duration right up until the shots were fired.

Give me  a break.

Mick Purdy

The post above for me is really the heart of the perplexing issues surrounding BWF. We know he lied, we know he's changed his story from time to time and we know his sister aided him in that lie too.

But Greg's post is spot on, its surely about BWF's wittingness also. Was Wes acting alone? (I doubt that very much.) If he was not acting alone who was he colluding with and for what end outcome.

We have a guy who comes to Irving from Huntsville and lands a job at the TSBD a mere 4 weeks prior to Lee Oswald starting there. They both end up with identical jobs, and Wes ends up driving Lee to and from work. They both end up living doors away from one another. Wes seems to become a good friend of Lee's. Wes ended up sleeping on the couch of his sisters home, because the mum and step dad just happened to take holidays, and decided to visit daughter Linnie Mae, at the very same time that Wes visited his sister when he came to Irving in search of employment. The stepdad ended up in an Irving hospital suffering from an alleged heart attack, where Wes was eventually apprehended by police after the assassination. Dorthy Roberts and her coffee club, Ruth and Michael Paine, and of course the invisible Mr. Willie Randall/ Bill Randle.

What are we to make of Wes being late that morning (22 Nov) was he accidentally late? Did he simply sleep in? Was it pre-organised...did Wes tell Lee Thursday evening he would not be taking him to work Friday morning? Or did Ruth simply tell Wes she was taking Lee to work Friday. Did Ruth tell Wesley to lie about the trip into work and to concoct the curtain rod story? Or was Bill Randle much more involved that we could imagine?

Where was BWF after the assassination? and for me this is massively important. He's never not ever satisfactorily answered that very simple question  IMO. He has if my math is correct around as many as 3-4 hours unaccounted for after the assassination....

Are there phone records which would show incoming calls to either the Randle home, the Paines house or even Bell Aerospace at around 1.00 pm from the Oakcliff area.....? T.T.

I believe we can unravel this, yes BWF is up to his neck in it but it's to what extent and that includes his "Wittingness."