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Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 9:15 pm

So the rifle said to be the Carcano used in the assassination that was in Paine's garage was wrapped in paper inside a carton between 43-45 inches long? Am I reading that right?

Of course, any assassin worth his salt, rather than just doing the simple thing like taking the box to work (perhaps even wrapping with common grocery bag paper material to further disguise it), no, he strips the carbine down to its component parts and builds a custom sack to carry the unwieldy mess using paper he smuggled home from his place of work. 

As logical as Harvey and Lee.
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by greg parker on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 11:11 pm

Stan Dane wrote:So the rifle said to be the Carcano used in the assassination that was in Paine's garage was wrapped in paper inside a carton between 43-45 inches long? Am I reading that right?

Of course, any assassin worth his salt, rather than just doing the simple thing like taking the box to work (perhaps even wrapping with common grocery bag paper material to further disguise it), no, he strips the carbine down to its component parts and builds a custom sack to carry the unwieldy mess using paper he smuggled home from his place of work. 

As logical as Harvey and Lee.
Not to mention his keeping all of that packaging and wrapping since March, but not using it when allegedly living on Neely St where both DeM and his wife claim to have seen the rifle in the apartment not wrapped or boxed.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by greg parker on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 11:12 pm

Again I am left dumb-founded at how this case held together for more than 50 seconds, let alone 50 years.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Colin Crow on Thu 15 Jun 2017, 1:29 pm

If members have not read the work of Tony Fratini on the origin of the paper bag I would throughly reccomend it. It has the highest read and response count on Duncan's forum.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=11622.0

It is clear from the evidence and testimonies that the bag was manufactured by Day and Studebaker on the first floor and then transported to the 6th by Studebaker, where it was "discovered" after Day left the building with the rifle. It quickly became a convenient piece of "evidence" to link Oswald to the rifle by the FBI.
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:37 pm

greg parker wrote:Again I am left dumb-founded at how this case held together for more than 50 seconds, let alone 50 years.


Rightly so.

The only way it holds up is though an intense brainwashing campaign, there the media plays its complicit role, likely funded by the feds.

We just need the line item vetoed.

I was just re-reading the thread about the blanket and string....

And The Walker incident where Lee takes rifle in rain coat and buries it, to go back the next(?) day, un-bury it cleaning off raincoat, and bringing it home on the bus..
This is all from Marina of course.
Hahaha

I agree Stan this case gets more ridiculous the more I look.
Please Meme this 5 foot carton business.
Rudd Container corp, rain coats, baby blankets and string, bags, and gun cases that look like gun cases but then dont... this case is dyslexic.

I recall an TSBD sighting of Oswald with tall carton, cant recall the ladies name or if it was couple ladies, but it was in the front lift, so 3rd or 4th floor
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 12:40 pm

Great thread.

This is progress.

Thx Colin. Bag n bones is another great one

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 1:54 pm

Here is a customer of Kleins and their comments


http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearms-knives-other-brands/105650-heres-american-rifleman-ad-oswald-bought-his-rifle.html
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 2:50 pm

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 5:07 pm

"(in other words, Oswald=Hidell)the Post Office received and held the weapon for Hidell to pick up informing the Box holder of an oversized package by leaving a note in Oswald’s PO Box the accused picked up the 5 foot carton and transported it to 214 W. Neely the rifle had then been transported from Neely in Dallas to New Orleans and from New Orleans to Irving, Texas when Ruth takes Oswald’s family from him on Sept 23, 1963, the accused created a paper sack at his place of work, got it to the Paine garage in Irving, disassembled the rifle, placed the parts in the sack along with a clip and live ammo (12 pieces including small screws), retrieved it on the morning of Nov 22nd and got it to the TSBD via a car ride with Buell Wesley Frasier"

Funny stuff, all of it fabrication.
Scope is wrapped in corrugated card board, not what would be useful for sacks. According to William J. Waldman, Vice President, Klein's Sporting
Goods, Inc
"brown wrapping paper or newspaper would be used in -
wrapping to prevent shifting within the carton"

So wrapping paper is used which would be as long or longer than the item being wrapped.


Here is PS's take:
"And Fratini's not just blowing smoke... Textbooks on crime scene investigation note that its best to transport items for fingerprinting in clean paper sacks. Evidence for the Law Enforcement Officer (1979), for example, notes that when transporting items for fingerprinting "It is best to transport such an object by placing it in a box in such a manner that it does not roll around or get broken, or by putting it in a clean paper sack..." Criminal Investigation: Basic Perspectives (1970) similarly notes "thoroughly clean and dry containers, wrapping paper, corrugated paper, boxes, and sealing tape are the basic safeguards of physical evidence in transport."


And then, amazingly, there's Day himself. When interviewed by Larry Sneed, Day explained his abandonment of the crime scene with the rifle as follows: "I didn't have anything to wrap it up with at the time, so I carried it out making sure that I didn't touch anything other than the strap. Besides, you had to be careful in wrapping stuff because if there were any prints, you're liable to smear them just from the wrapping."

Day had thereby acknowledged it was routine to wrap an item such as the rifle.


So...is Fratini onto something? Did Day tell Studebaker to make a bag for the rifle, and then change his mind? Was the bag then used to transport something else? Did the DPD then decide to pretend the bag was found in the building?"

Here is a google group thread  on Klein's paper;
Time to Wrap it Up
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/vc5HJwisQ6I

Raymond 1/26/12
  " Belin: About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?
   Waldman: Approximately 60 inches.
   Belin: Did you ever furnish a sample of the carton or any wrapping
paper or tape to the FBI?
   Waldman: Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the
type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may
have been used for inner cushioning packing.


   As thrifty as LHO was, it is unlikely that he would have deliberately
disposed of the cardboard carton or the paper that protected his weapon en
route from Chicago.

   Could Klein's paper have been the same paper that covered the Carcano
within the "rustic" blanket on the floor of the Paine's garage? Could that
same paper have somehow ended up on the 6th. floor of the TSBD?

   Does anyone know what became of the "samples or any wrapping paper or
tape " provided to the FBI?  Did the Agency compare the Chicago paper with
the TSBD paper?

            As well look for a needle in a bottle of hay.
                ___ Cervantes: Don Quixote

The Chicago paper:
SA James Cadigan (Vol.IV, p.89) tested not only the Klein's paper; he
even tested paper samples taken from Jaggers-Chiles Stovall and Wm. B. Reilly Co.; both places where LHO had been employed."

Here is the best part;

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir; the night of November 22
At the same time, on November 23, we had an agent come in from Chicago with samples of paper from Klein's, with the possibility, it was thought, that the paper sack----
Mr. DULLES. Identify Klein's just for the record.
Mr. CADIGAN. Klein's Sporting Goods Store in Chicago, from which the Italian rifle was bought.

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 5:26 pm

Stan,
That is the bomb cherry

Ed
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 7:13 pm

greg parker wrote:Apparently the rifle in the garage was wrapped in corrugated paper in a carton inside the baby blanky....

Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that-we have taken a piece
of corrugated box board, measured off 43 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs.
Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in
which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. PAINE. Tha’t’s it.
(,4t this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel
Jenner.)
FBI has samples:
D2* Known paper and tape samples from Klein’s.

D60*__ Brown paper envelope and paper bag from Irving, Tex.,
Post Office.
D62* Two paper tape samples from the home of Mrs. Paine.
D193* — One sample of brown wrapping paper and a strip of 3" Manila gummed tape.
D195* One sample of 60 lb. Kraft wrapping paper.
D208* Paper and tape sample obtained from Mrs. Ruth Paine.
So Waldman furnished and initialed 6 samples of
brown wrapping paper, 5 samples of paper gummed tapes, 1 sample
of corrugated paper and 1 sample cardboard carton.

Is this what Jenner uses? wink wink
Or was this just a gun case shaped piece of corrugated cardboard,
or was it in the shape of a rifle, wink wink
if yes why 43"?
Ruth's description?
43" object will not be completely concealed in the blanket. I measure 41 max inches for concealment.
Could someone else take CE 139 and 140 and resize them to match based on ruler. and then measure across top of blanky. thx!

I'd like to peak at FBI item D2, the samples from Waldman/Klein's
?NARA?

I've always thought they were claiming the blanket tied with string, was in that bag, with disassembled rifle in it.
Hence fibers of the colors that I thought more matched the blanky than Oswalds brown shirt.
Or I've been brainwashed to believe such Smile
Cheers, Ed
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 3:08 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:


Could someone else take CE 139 and 140 and resize them to match based on ruler. and then measure across top of blanky. thx!

Adjusted the sizes of CE 139 & 140 to match and ratioed the size of the red lines for each in inches.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 5:32 am

Thank you Stan

43" carton covered in Kraft paper could fit.
I'll be.

Cheers, Ed
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by greg parker on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 8:49 am

This might be a good time to revisit Ruth's calendar and her mysterious entry "LHO rifle Oct 23" but written on the page for March pointing to the 20th. 

Her explanation was that she learned on Nov 23 that Oswald had purchased the rifle on March 20 and it had been such a gosh-darn stressful day that she wrote the date as Oct instead of Nov. 

She further explained that she did not know Oswald's middle name until doing paperwork at the hospital in relation to the birth of Audrey.

Why she thought that explained anything is beyond me since Audrey was born on Oct 20 - so she actually did know Oswald's middle name before Oct 23. 

Oct 23 was also the day of the Gen Walker rally, if I remember correctly. 

Writing it on the page for March and pointing to the 20th, to be fair, does indicate the entry was written after it was learned that this was the alleged purchase date. 

I do have trouble however, swallowing that she could absent-mindedly write Oct instead of Nov. Seems way out of character for such an officious record-keeper. And that concern is exacerbated by her "filling out paperwork at the hospital" explanation trying to suggest falsely that she did not know his middle initial as at Oct 23. 

So... could this rifle have been ordered/purchased on Oct 23 (instead of March 20),  arrived on that date, or otherwise have been required on that date?

Could she have written that entry just as she claimed on Nov 23, but the true meaning is that the officials are claiming Mar 20 as the purchase date, but it was actually Oct 23?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Stan Dane on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 12:55 am

greg parker wrote:So... could this rifle have been ordered/purchased on Oct 23 (instead of March 20),  arrived on that date, or otherwise have been required on that date?

Could she have written that entry just as she claimed on Nov 23, but the true meaning is that the officials are claiming Mar 20 as the purchase date, but it was actually Oct 23?

When considering the possibility that the October 23 date was actual date when the rifle was purchased, if this were so, it was also around this time when things were getting firmed up for the Kennedy trip to Dallas, was it not?

By the 23rd Ruth has helped Oswald get a job at the TSBD through Truly. Check.

By the 23rd the trip to Dallas was on, and only the details of where the motorcade goes needed to be ironed out (no problem with our inside people). Check. 

So with the key boxes of the necessary prerequisite checklist now ticked off, go ahead and get that patsy rifle ordered (we'll tweak the paperwork to make it everything look copasetic). Continue developing the other contingencies (Trade Mart, motorcade downtown) in parallel as a "defense in depth" strategy in case the TSBD part of the plan fails.
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by steely dan on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 10:19 am

Stan Dane wrote:
greg parker wrote:So... could this rifle have been ordered/purchased on Oct 23 (instead of March 20),  arrived on that date, or otherwise have been required on that date?

Could she have written that entry just as she claimed on Nov 23, but the true meaning is that the officials are claiming Mar 20 as the purchase date, but it was actually Oct 23?

When considering the possibility that the October 23 date was actual date when the rifle was purchased, if this were so, it was also around this time when things were getting firmed up for the Kennedy trip to Dallas, was it not?

By the 23rd Ruth has helped Oswald get a job at the TSBD through Truly. Check.

By the 23rd the trip to Dallas was on, and only the details of where the motorcade goes needed to be ironed out (no problem with our inside people). Check. 

So with the key boxes of the necessary prerequisite checklist now ticked off, go ahead and get that patsy rifle ordered (we'll tweak the paperwork to make it everything look copasetic). Continue developing the other contingencies (Trade Mart, motorcade downtown) in parallel as a "defense in depth" strategy in case the TSBD part of the plan fails.
Mar 20 is a bullshit date which puts the rifle in LHO's hands in time for the Walker pot shot after he has honed his skill by shooting at the odd tree leaf. Didn't work, he hit the house instead.
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 12:32 pm

steely dan wrote:
Stan Dane wrote:
greg parker wrote:So... could this rifle have been ordered/purchased on Oct 23 (instead of March 20),  arrived on that date, or otherwise have been required on that date?

Could she have written that entry just as she claimed on Nov 23, but the true meaning is that the officials are claiming Mar 20 as the purchase date, but it was actually Oct 23?

When considering the possibility that the October 23 date was actual date when the rifle was purchased, if this were so, it was also around this time when things were getting firmed up for the Kennedy trip to Dallas, was it not?

By the 23rd Ruth has helped Oswald get a job at the TSBD through Truly. Check.

By the 23rd the trip to Dallas was on, and only the details of where the motorcade goes needed to be ironed out (no problem with our inside people). Check. 

So with the key boxes of the necessary prerequisite checklist now ticked off, go ahead and get that patsy rifle ordered (we'll tweak the paperwork to make it everything look copasetic). Continue developing the other contingencies (Trade Mart, motorcade downtown) in parallel as a "defense in depth" strategy in case the TSBD part of the plan fails.
Mar 20 is a bullshit date which puts the rifle in LHO's hands in time for the Walker pot shot after he has honed his skill by shooting at the odd tree leaf. Didn't work, he hit the house instead.
I'm just wondering about the coincidence of Oct 23 being the day of the Walker rally - which LHO allegedly attended.

Whichever way it's sliced, Ruth is not telling the truth. Her, "I added the date I wrote it (tho I got it wrong!) because people will wonder about that entry" doesn't pass the smell test. She allegedly wrote it on Nov 23. Did she think then that her calendar was going to eventually be scrutinized? I doubt it. It wasn't taken in the initial searches, so why would she think it would be taken after that? It's an alibi of sorts, and that's all it is. 

But then, I'm not entirely happy I've got a satisfactory alternative explanation.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 12:44 pm

I just find it incredulous Ruth claimed to confuse November with October  

If only she had a calendar handy........

The answer may be on the microfilm copy of Kleins orders.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 12:47 pm

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 12:55 pm

They had stock of Carcanos.
Removed it from sale.

Im guessing an inventory was in order.

How many of what model rifles did they have, and have left.
Who else in Dallas/Irving/Ft.Worth bought such Carcano form them.
Microfilm tells the tale.
How did they copy other orders for microfilm. Did they copy money orders, probably not but it would be nice to see a couple examples from the roll.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:04 pm

What do we need to do to see the whole roll?
Nara request...?
FOIA?

Nevermind.

Per Fez,
The Microfilm is no longer at NARA per John Armstrong who tells me he saw the box, but there was no film inside..
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 4:08 pm

Ed. Ledoux wrote:I just find it incredulous Ruth claimed to confuse November with October  
If it were the first couple of days of the month when she confused the 2 months on her calendar, I would give her some benefit of the doubt due to an oversight. But we are talking about the 23rd day. That's just plain bullshit on her part.
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 10:37 pm

And who can forget October 20th
Ruth is busy memorizing Lee's information on the admittance forms for Marina to give birth to Rachel.
Yet Edith Whitworth is selling Lee and Marina on used baby furniture and a broken toilet plunger...

In questioning Marina she gives an odd reply to Rankin about the gun shop/furniture store visit.
Marina when asked about it by Rankin she says baby is only one month old in Irving...
She was confusing Oct 20 for Nov 20.

Around this time, a man and woman later identified as Lee and Marina
Oswald and two young girls visited an Irving furniture store run by Mrs.
Edith Whitworth, and spoke to Mrs. Whitworth and her friend, Mrs. Gertrude
Hunter. The women would remember that the family drove up in a '50s-model
two-toned, blue and white sedan. He'd come into the store looking for a
gunsmith who'd previously been located there; a sign reading "Guns" still
hung outside. Oswald decided to stay and look at some furniture, and
called his wife in from the car where she was waiting with their two
daughters, one of whom was two years old, one of whom was still a tiny
baby. Oswald's wife was foreign, and didn't seem to speak English. She
wore a short coat. Mrs. Whitworth cooed over the baby, whose name she
learned was Rachel. Oswald mentioned that Rachel had just been born on
October 20th. Oswald was carrying a brown paper package about fifteen
inches long. He said that was looking to get the plunger (firing pin) of
his rifle repaired. Mrs. Whitworth directed him to the nearby Irving
Sports Shop. Mrs. Hunter was present the entire time, and corroborated
Mrs. Whitworth's story (9).

Marina Oswald denied this incident before the Commission on June 11, 1964.


Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you about the Irving Gun
Shop in [Irving].

Mrs. OSWALD. The what? I don't know anything about this at all.

Mr. RANKIN. . . . A witness has said that you and your two children and
your husband came into a furniture shop asking the location of a gun shop
in that area in Irving, and after appearing there that you and your
husband, with your husband driving the car, along with your two children,
got in the car and went up the street in the direction of where the gun
shop was. Did you recall any incident of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is just a complete fabrication. Lee never drove a car
with me. . . .

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever go into such a furniture store in Irving?

Mrs. OSWALD. Never. . . . I was never in Irving in any furniture store.

Mr. RANKIN. . . . Did you ever go on a trip with your husband to have a
telescopic lens mounted on a gun at a gun shop?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is all not true. In the first place, my husband
couldn't drive, and I was never alone with him in a car. Anytime we went
in a car it was with Ruth Paine, and there was never -- we never went to
any gun store and never had any telescopic lens mounted.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the four of you, that is, your husband, you, and your two
children, ever go any place in Irving?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Irving the baby was only 1 month old. I never took her out
anywhere. . . . Just to doctor, you know
.


Not possible this was Oswald.
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by BC_II on Fri 23 Jun 2017, 12:08 pm

Vinny wrote:
BC_II wrote:All I know is, after really studying the evidence from Murphy, Kamp, et. al, I find Frazier's talks and presence almost frustrating to endure he knows he's lying....At the same time, I cannot imagine the intense pressure he must be under, which also shows how relevant this cold case still is...

Yes,he must be under a lot of pressure. The fact that he refuses to directly identify PM shows that.

My god you just wonder if he's spilled the beans to anyone he truly trusts....imagine what the guy knows...just imagine.

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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Sun 25 Jun 2017, 12:26 am

If he admitted the image is that of Lee Oswald based on where Lee was last.
Did they employ a carpentry/floor/lumber company to either deliver the lumber
or lay/fix structural areas. Recall they did use a company but they were not there that day.... and thus:

Mr. FRAZIER - When I went to put up the stock?
Representative FORD - Yes. On the sixth floor.
Mr. FRAZIER - That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was the early part of the morning.
Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?
Mr. FRAZIER - As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.
Mr. BALL - Any work done on the floor?
Mr. FRAZIER - I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth floor that morning you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds

No work on floor when Wes was up on six. Of course this is just for a few seconds, but he does speak to Shelley and observes the boys moving cartons/stock about.



Mr. BALL - Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I heard he would.
Mr. BALL - Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - What time did you knock off for lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - 12.
Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.


So Wes talks to everyone else about the occasion of the President, a Good Old Boy an Texan coming by.... WTF he is talking about JOHNSON!


Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?



Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Wes is wearing his jacket, because it turned out to be warm, ie it was cold.
And he talked with Oswald about the weather and catches himself in the CBS interview where he drives the route, saying it was rainy and a bad day for .... ah never mind...  
We can safely assume he and Oswald had spoke of the parade, Buell intimates it several ways.
When Buell has to stay on script is where he shows what the script is.
He would fail a stress response to this question of discussing the parade.
Of course as Bart has shown me, Joachim Joesten asked, how would Lee know the parade route would in fact make the double turn. As opposed to a previously posted Main Street to Stemmons route.
As Joachim proved twice, as cabs he directed to turn onto Stemmons from Main and did so twice without jumping a curb, as there is a a place past the triple underpass which has no curbing and allows a vehicle to turn right across Elm and onto the freeway. No need for Elm Street where there were thinning or little to no crowd, no need for Main to Industrial, and Lee would not know for a fact any of this till that morning at 8am by reading the DMN at the TSBD.
Unless Wes and Lee stopped for a paper, or Ruth had a subscription or Linnie Mae had a subscription, but Wes was running late so no time for a paper.
And I do not see how Lee would get to read such a paper at the TSBD at 8am as he enters and starts work right away...
The Oswald morning reading of a newspaper on 11/22 just isn't sitting well.
And who is to say it is that mornings paper, probably yesterdays, from upstairs or one of the bosses, Truly or Shelley as a left over.
I don't see the warehouse crew as spending money on a paper they all never read. So who brings in newspapers? Or did the warehouse have a subscription.

Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the east side were there cartons on the floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was.
Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor. Then we had to move the cartons. As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.
Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what time did you go to work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. Were you late or on time that morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there a little before eight.
Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put him serf in any position to say anything to anyone. He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said anything to him.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No. The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.
Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out.
Representative FORD.Where did this go on?
Mr. WILLIAMS. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read the sports.

Charles Givens told the FBI that he saw Oswald reading a newspaper in the Domino room at 11:50 am. Givens testified that when he saw Oswald reading, it was usually “right at lunch time” – and Oswald always ate lunch in the Domino Room

Then changes his tune,
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. .... I didn't see him in the domino room that morning
.



Givens also reported that Oswald was seen by him at 7:30 a.m. in the Domino Room reading a newspaper. Only if he had a earlier ride.
So a reading of the morning paper at 11:50 which had the exact parade route is supposedly what Lee uses as information that he can shoot at the motorcade.
...and he brings a rifle in pieces in the off chance the parade came down Main a block away that morning?
Bullocks!


Secret Service Report (CD87 p780) recounting an interview with William Shelley, Oswald’s immediate boss, states "Mr. Shelley last saw Oswald at about 11:50 A.M., at which time Oswald was working at his normal duties on the first floor."
Shelley testified to seeing him on the first floor same as Givens,
“I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12.”  that he last saw Oswald “10 or 15 minutes before 12…On the first floor over near the telephone.”  

At 11:45 the floor crew knocked off to race the elevators downstairs.

But what about the elevator race leaving Lee up on six? MORE BOLLOCKS!

Lee was not on six!

This is suborning perjury here for all to see:
 

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read?
Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look at it.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. Fellows bring it to work.
Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that somebody else brought to work?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one.
Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James Jarman would generally bring one.
Mr. BELIN. Now you say you left the sixth floor. Well, you said you left it first to go---did you go down with the other employees on the elevator?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About what time was that now?
Mr. GIVENS. That was about a quarter-- I said about a quarter to 12.
Mr. BELIN. Who was on that elevator, do you remember?
Mr. GIVENS. That was Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady, and Danny and myself.
Mr. BELIN. That was Danny Arce?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes: a Spanish boy.
Mr. BELIN. Then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your cigarettes so you went back up?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you go down on?
Mr. GIVENS. I came down on the east elevator.
Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take back up?
Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

FUNNY! These same fellers were all outside after building is secured in Martin film. Williams, Lovelady, Arce and (Givens is farther away) all of them rode the same elevator down. Down from six. And then a bs story about Lee being up on six as they raced down. 

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that morning on November 22d?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the
domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d?
Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.
Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.
Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two elevators, didn't you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; we took two down.
Mr. BELIN. Were you racing the elevators?
Mr. GIVENS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Who won?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got down to the first floor before you went back up to the sixth floor again?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes and I thought about I left them in my jacket pocket.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up to the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I went in and washed my hands, I sure did.
MR. BELIN. Anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that was it.


BOLLOCKS!

There was no leaving Lee on Six and coming back down later again to find the west elevator gone, and so much out right lies accepted and encouraged by counsel,
This is the reason to Reopen the case!!!
This should be top of the list.
Leading a witness is one thing, but counselors did far far more to elicit false testimony under oath!

There are three general federal perjury laws. One, 18 U.S.C. 1621, outlaws presenting material
false statements under oath in federal official proceedings. A second, 18 U.S.C. 1623, bars
presenting material false statements under oath before or ancillary to federal court or grand jury
proceedings. A third, 18 U.S.C. 1622 (subornation of perjury), prohibits inducing or procuring
another to commit perjury in violation of either Section 1621 or Section 1623.

Oswald was on the first floor and counselors mitigate any support for the accused in fact breaking their Bar Association code of conduct, see their various bar association rules and bylaws, although Dallas Bar says its okay in some instances www.dallasbar.org/book-page/may-disciplinary-rules-permit-subornation-perjury

Their can be no doubt they would do similar to Buell what they did to Givens, hence his faux pas of not talking to Lee about the parade that morning and yet the weather being bad for the ______
 
Yes imagine when and if Buell does not self correct? 

We need less of his late additions like sighting Lee walking away from the rear of TSBD toward Houston Street.
Is this after Buell has his cheese sandwich and fruit?
What did Buell swallow this dry lump down with?
Did he not go get a soda? Like Lee?
Is this after building is locked down?
How did he manage this, did he go out with Lovelady as we see Lovelady taking a smoke break out front and Williams making his way back in after police had the front secure in Martin film.

I still wonder why then is Buell not out on the sidewalk where he could see such a path by Lee!?!?
This is based on what the crew knew, that Lee had gone to the corner and hopped on a bus, Buell just adds it as a memory rather than what he was told.And who is out where they can see if this did or did not happen.
The East Side Elevator gang. Wiliams, Arce, Givens, Lovelady. 
E. Side Represent!
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Re: Buell Wesley Frazier: "Where’s your Rider?" Part B

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