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greg parker
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 4:46 pm
Milo Reech @ the Foo wrote:Tippit: An Alternative Solution
https://www.thenewdisease.space/tippit

Croy and the Top Ten Phone Call
Whatever reserve Sergeant Croy may have done that afternoon, making the Top Ten phone call was not one of them. His WC testimony says he never got closer to the Texas Theatre than Zangs. Top Ten was a block farther away. There is also nothing to suggest he stopped to phone his estranged wife on the way to the diner.
Out of all the cops in the area that day, he has the only known reason to make an urgent private call. You have Tippit making on urgent private call based half-baked conjecture. 

And he was closer than you claim.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where Oswald was apprehended?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or go near there?
Mr. CROY. I went by it, yes; within a block of it on the way home.

It was Croy who made the call. Get over it.



The following is more interesting, shedding some light on the kind of cop Croy was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found him on. When you got there, was Tippit's car there?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tippit there?
Mr. CROY. They were loading him in the ambulance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other officers on the scene?
Mr. CROY. None that I saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. CROY. Got me a witness.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get ahold of?
Mr. CROY. It was a woman standing across the street from me. I don't recall her name. She gave me her name at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you?
Mr. CROY. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I don't recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and shot him and then ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald?
Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I recall, there was 2 people who saw it. No; 3. A man in a, taxicab driver. However, she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make out. She saw the actual shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with her?
Mr. CROY. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were talking with her?
Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad did get there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This conversation all took place near the scene of the Tippit killing?
Mr. CROY. Leaning up against his car.
My original essay is only concerned with Croy insofar as his being the likely maker of the Top Ten phone call. What on earth has this got to do with it? 



Keep in mind according to the generally accepted sequence of events Callaway, after helping load Tippit's corpse into the ambulance, proceeded to use Tippit's car radio to report a murder to the police that had obviously already been reported, while a police sergeant in uniform leaned against the same car! It gets better, continuing with the standard narrative, Callaway next grabbed the dead officer's gun and boldly commandeered a cab, under the nose of Croy, still leaning against #10. Some police work!
Again, irrelevant to my interest in Croy, I know he is a favorite whipping boy - but that says more about you than me. Let's start today's lesson by pointing you to the very testimony you posted,

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found him on. When you got there, was Tippit's car there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tippit there?


Mr. CROY. They were loading him in the ambulance.


So what was happening when Croy got there? Tippit was being loaded into an ambulance. Those loading him included Calloway.  

And who did Croy think Calloway was? 

Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness?
Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene.


Croy thought Calloway was a private detective. 

But again, none of this is relevant to the Top Ten phone call.

I would add though that Croy was not on official duty and as a reservist, he had to work with a full-time cop in order to actually do anything. His actions to me speak of someone who wants to help, but is unsure as an off-duty reservist, whether he should, or given the extreme circumstances, just how much assistance he could give without getting in trouble.

You guys love whipping boys!

Me? I love showing your theories are crap because you never ever try and rule out any logical and plausible explanations before you dive into the conspiracy pool.

_________________
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-----------------------------
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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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Mick Purdy
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 11:36 am
Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Davenport

Is that a typo I'm looking at or something more sinister? Is that 1.15pm typed over an earlier time, eg: 1.00pm?
steely dan
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 12:22 pm
1 06 Mick.

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You ain't gonna know what you learn if you knew it....... confused


Checkmate.

Mick Purdy
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Sun 01 Mar 2020, 12:24 pm
Ah yes Steely, it's all coming back. 1.06pm typed over with 1.15pm Oops. Cheers!
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Peter Johnsen
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 1:15 pm
The Man on Tenth street


Lets get a few things out of the way first. The Tippit murder did NOT involve LHO. There a several sightings of Oswald at the Texas theatre from 1.00 pm until his arrest, by Burroughs and several theatre patrons. Secondly it appears Tippit's murder involved a man walking west along East Tenth street. Who was that man and what was he doing there?


The question then becomes a choice between three alternatives: (1) The pedestrian/shooter and Tippit's meeting was a completely random encounter (2) It was an encounter that Tippit had been directed to and he was being mislead, perhaps as a response to a reported nearby fight or another bogus reason and (3) It was a completely orchestrated assassination of Tippit for an unknown reason.


I think it is testing the bounds of credibility to believe that, the pedestrian/shooter, plus a Dallas Police patrol car (containing two men seen by Holan, Guillyard and probably Davis) was already in position when Tippit arrived on the scene and that there is the strong possibility that a fourth man (tall man with long coat seen by Wright, Clemmons) was involved, who left in his own car. This smells of an ambush to me and there is little to say that it was a random encounter.


IMO I don't think it bore any relationship to JFK's assassination 50 minutes beforehand. As both Curry (in his book) and Wade (later statements) both revealed, “It was a local matter...”. Certainly it appears that the murder was hastily and poorly tacked onto the 'Oswald narrative' to bolster the entire story and allow for time inconsistencies.


I would like to go further into the question of the 'walking man' in my next post.
Mick Purdy
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 1:38 pm
Peter Johnsen wrote:The Man on Tenth street


Lets get a few things out of the way first. The Tippit murder did NOT involve LHO. There a several sightings of Oswald at the Texas theatre from 1.00 pm until his arrest, by Burroughs and several theatre patrons. Secondly it appears Tippit's murder involved a man walking west along East Tenth street. Who was that man and what was he doing there?


The question then becomes a choice between three alternatives: (1) The pedestrian/shooter and Tippit's meeting was a completely random encounter (2) It was an encounter that Tippit had been directed to and he was being mislead, perhaps as a response to a reported nearby fight or another bogus reason and (3) It was a completely orchestrated assassination of Tippit for an unknown reason.


I think it is testing the bounds of credibility to believe that, the pedestrian/shooter, plus a Dallas Police patrol car (containing two men seen by Holan, Guillyard and probably Davis) was already in position when Tippit arrived on the scene and that there is the strong possibility that a fourth man (tall man with long coat seen by Wright, Clemmons) was involved, who left in his own car. This smells of an ambush to me and there is little to say that it was a random encounter.


IMO I don't think it bore any relationship to JFK's assassination 50 minutes beforehand. As both Curry (in his book) and Wade (later statements) both revealed, “It was a local matter...”. Certainly it appears that the murder was hastily and poorly tacked onto the 'Oswald narrative' to bolster the entire story and allow for time inconsistencies.


I would like to go further into the question of the 'walking man' in my next post.
Hi Peter,

you wrote:
There a several sightings of Oswald at the Texas theatre from 1.00 pm until his arrest, by Burroughs and several theatre patrons. Secondly it appears Tippit's murder involved a man walking west along East Tenth street. Who was that man and what was he doing there?


I'm working on an essay involving the timeline for the Theater and Oswald's movements between 1.00 and 1.48pm.
Are you able to disclose who the sources are for the several sightings of Oswald at the TT and supply any links , or citations you have.
And secondly, point me to the links and citations for the sources of the claim that Tippit's murder was " a local matter"


You would save me hours.


Cheers 


Mick
greg parker
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 2:33 pm
Hi Peter.

Agree Oswald did not do it.

I agree it had no direct relationship to the assassination.

I agree it was hastily and poorly tacked onto the Oswald narrative.

I agree it was a "local matter" (tho I don't recall hearing that quote before)

Our point of disagreement is that it was an ambush. A lot of people agree with you on that, but claim the ambush and murder were expressly to drain Dealey Plaza and/or set up Oswald. If you d not believe it was an ambush for that purpose, what do you as the purpose?

I'm not sure about the second cop car, although there was one in the area because IIRC, Calloway and the cab driver were brought back to the scene in a cop car.

I don't think it was an ambush. I think he was looking for one or more young men involved in a reported "disturbance" of some kind. It was one of those who shot him because the local gang members were all on parole and a violation no matter how minor, meant going back to prison. I short, they feared arrest by this cop who did not know them and wasn't on the take like the regular cop.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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Phil Hopley
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:09 pm
Peter, you said that Curry stated in his book that the Tippit shooting "was a local matter". I have Curry's book and on page 64 Curry states "Oswald pumped four shots into Tippit at almost point blank range."  I've also looked for the phrase "a local matter" but it's not there. Would you please cite which page of Curry's book has those words. Thanks.
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 11:51 pm
Phil Hopley wrote:Peter, you said that Curry stated in his book that the Tippit shooting "was a local matter". I have Curry's book and on page 64 Curry states "Oswald pumped four shots into Tippit at almost point blank range."  I've also looked for the phrase "a local matter" but it's not there. Would you please cite which page of Curry's book has those words. Thanks.
We have been misinterpreting what was meant. As I've just discovered, the FBI also called it "a local matter".
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/A%20Disk/Assassination%20Information%20Bureau/Item%2066.pdf

What they all meant had to do with jurisdictional control.  LBJ had the power to order the FBI to investigate the assassination but a cop killing remained a matter for Dallas police.

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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Phil Hopley
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 6:00 am
Thanks, Greg.
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Peter Johnsen
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 10:06 am
In answer to a couple of responses. "a local matter" - Even Hoover insisted that Tippit's murder was "strictly a local crime" (McBride p592-93). There is every reason to believe that this was actually meant in relation to federal v state jurisdiction, instead of my interpretation that the quote involved local crime and nothing to do with JFK's assassination.I stand to be corrected on that one.
Greg, in regards to "ambush", I point to a couple of indicators. Firstly, re the presence of the second police patrol car in the driveway, one must understand where everyone's focus was and that is the street with the fallen policeman lying on the road. That is perhaps why some witnesses didn't see it. Markham is in melt down, Benavides is hiding, Scroggins is hiding, Clemmons view of that driveway would be too acute from her angle, same with Wright. Holan on the other hand was directly opposite with a perfect view across the street. And, since she wasn't interviewed by the WC, eminently believable. The others who saw the additional patrol car (at least in their INITIAL statements but subsequently expunged or not followed up) were Barbara Davis "they (the police) were already there". She quite possibly saw or glimpsed out of the corner of her eye, this patrol car retreating back up the driveway. Perhaps even the fast disappearing front fender would be enough to recognise it. She was right beside the bloody thing, it had to mean something!! And Guinyard, who I believe noticed the second patrol car as he was walking down Patton to the scene with Callaway. He looks to his right and sees the patrol car as it backed into or left (towards Denver) the alley running parallel with Tenth to the south. So I believe three distinct sightings from three different angles are a good indication, that the patrol car was there. As well as reasons why the other witnesses didn't see it.
I would like to go into the ambush angle a lot  more. Especially the 'walking man' on Tenth - still working on it.
Mick Purdy
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 10:28 am
Thanks Peter for your response, and to Greg for clarifying the local crime angle.

Still very much interested in any sources or links you might have for any witnesses who claimed to have seen Oswald in the theater at 1.00pm up until his arrest.

Cheers Mick
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Peter Johnsen
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on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 11:07 am
The question to Butch Burroughs was " Did you see him come into the theatre"? His response was "No". Fair enough, he didn't see him enter but as he told others, he had seen him inside the theatre "sometime after one" and he had sold popcorn to him at 1.15 pm approx. Of course, Burrough's statements were detrimental to the 'official narrative' of Oswald being at East Tenth street at that very time, so it was disregarded, expunged.
Without everything in front of me, it is my understanding that he sat beside two men and a woman during this period (sorry no names).
Re Tippit murder: Holan's, Clemmons', Wright's evidence was disregarded and none were invited to WC. Therefore I put a lot of store in their comments, above all other witnesses.
Mick Purdy
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on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 2:51 pm
Thanks Peter,

cutting to the chase I guess I'm wondering if you have anyone new to add to the list of witnesses who claimed to have observed Oswald in the theater between 1.00pm and about 1.45pm
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Peter Johnsen
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Thu 12 Mar 2020, 1:08 pm
The Walking Man #2


There have been consistent stories, evidence and rumour that a man appeared to begin a long walk in a westerly direction along East Tenth street, commencing (as best we know) from at least Nth Lancaster all the way west to Patton street. I wish here only to deal with the lead up to to Tippit's shooting, because after that, it gets even more complicated AARRGH!!


Drenas, Pulte, Brownlow and McBride all reference a comment made by an unknown local (and don't the locals always know the entire story!) that “If you are planning to do more research on Tippit, you should find out about the fight that took place at 12th and Marsallis, a few minutes before Tippit was killed”. Subsequent research has lead to the change the address to East Tenth and Marsallis. Brownlow clarifies things even further by saying “actually there were three men and a woman, who jumped another man at the corner, who was then 'violently' stabbed. The wounded man was then 'inexplicably' thrown into the back of a blue Mercury Monterrey which sped away from the scene”.


The first point I would make is to ask why was he walking at all? He eventually covered a reasonable distance of 14 blocks approx. to the Texas theatre but perhaps somewhat less, if he was picked up by someone beforehand. Still quite a few blocks at the least. During this westerly journey he is seen by probably no less than a dozen people: The proprietor of Clarke's barbershop (and customers – add two more), The bystanders who witnessed the 'fight' at the corner of East Tenth and Marsallis which included Cecil Smith, Jimmy Holan (and bystanders - add two more). William L Smith, walking past each other on the 500 block East Tenth. Jimmy Burt and William Smith (505 East Tenth at corner with Denver). James Archer and Jimmy Brewer, who saw him go behind their truck while they were sitting eating lunch in Denver street at the corner with Tenth.


For the most part, of those witnesses who offered an identification of this man (either officially or unofficially), identified him as Oswald. The one exception was Burt, who refused to say it was Oswald.


We have Brownlow's comment where he infers the walking man was the one who was stabbed, “...jumped another man at the corner, who was then 'violently' stabbed”. However Cecil Smith's description is ambivalent and doesn't say which man was stabbed, “one of the two individuals was stabbed”. So, there does not appear to be any other witness statements verifying who was stabbed at the corner. I note also that there is no witness comments about either the walking man or his assailant continuing to walk west along 10th. But apparently someone did, seen by Smith, Burt, Smith, Archer and Brewer only minutes later.


If it was one of the attackers who was stabbed, this would go a long way to explaining why he was quickly bundled into the car by the other three assailants. If it was the walking man who was stabbed, then bundling him into the car doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless they wanted to protect his identity for some reason. And it certainly doesn't explain why a man continues walking west along Tenth within the same time frame.


Looking at the situation from the outside 50 + years later, the fact that a car pulls up and a group attack a walking man, strongly suggests to me that they were already looking for him, pursuing him, determined to stop him perhaps?


Witnesses describe this man as 'hurrying'. Continually looking over his shoulder perhaps? Looking worried perhaps? And in the latter part of his journey (after the 'fight') looking dishevelled perhaps? Certainly he is behaving in a manner that attracts attention from all witnesses. Could it suggest a man, who is moving away from a 'situation', a man who is fleeing from other people perhaps?


So, as usual, we are left with several conundrums.

  1. Where did this man's journey originate?
  2. Was it the same man who made the entire journey to Patton?
  3. What was the motive of the assailants at the corner of Marsallis?
  4. And if Tippit's murder was an 'ambush', how on earth could the conspirators rely on the walking man to rendevouz at the exact time needed?



There was a church, the Abundant Life Baptist Church (??) (currently called the Greater El Bethel Baptist church on East Ninth), further east from Lancaster (first sighting) that might have relevance as to starting point. But little else of any significance. Another 'safe house' perhaps?

The 'fight' to me is somehow crucial. If the original walking man was stabbed and bundled into a fleeing car, then who is the man that continues walking??
How could this walking man possibly rendevouz with co-conspirators at exactly the right time??

If, for the sake of argument, we took away the possibility that Tippit's murder was an 'ambush' and that the others were not present (even though I have argued that they were present), and we also suppose that the original walker was not the man stabbed but he continued his journey west after the 'fight', then we can accept that Tippit's encounter with this man was random and unfortunately escalated quickly. Remembering that if the man had just been involved in a stabbing incident, then he would likely look dishevelled, have a heightened stress level and be 'trigger-happy' perhaps?

I find this episode an intriguing chapter in Tippit's murder. Perhaps I have provided more questions than answers. I have tried to dissect it logically but like everything else in this case, all the puzzle pieces just don't fit! The fact than a man undertook a longish journey west along Tenth street in the ten minutes before and after 1,00 pm is beyond doubt. Too many people saw him and most said he resembled Oswald. So a man walks a long way to eventually encounter Tippit. He gets involved in a fight along the way and possibly stabs a man. Later, when confronted , he kills a policeman. If the sightings of a second police care and another man present at the scene, can be argued away, then the possibility of a random encounter is there.

Any questions hahahaha?
Mick Purdy
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Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer  - Page 5 Empty Re: Why Officer Tippit Stopped His Killer

on Thu 12 Mar 2020, 1:48 pm
Peter Johnsen wrote:The Walking Man #2


There have been consistent stories, evidence and rumour that a man appeared to begin a long walk in a westerly direction along East Tenth street, commencing (as best we know) from at least Nth Lancaster all the way west to Patton street. I wish here only to deal with the lead up to to Tippit's shooting, because after that, it gets even more complicated AARRGH!!


Drenas, Pulte, Brownlow and McBride all reference a comment made by an unknown local (and don't the locals always know the entire story!) that “If you are planning to do more research on Tippit, you should find out about the fight that took place at 12th and Marsallis, a few minutes before Tippit was killed”. Subsequent research has lead to the change the address to East Tenth and Marsallis. Brownlow clarifies things even further by saying “actually there were three men and a woman, who jumped another man at the corner, who was then 'violently' stabbed. The wounded man was then 'inexplicably' thrown into the back of a blue Mercury Monterrey which sped away from the scene”.


The first point I would make is to ask why was he walking at all? He eventually covered a reasonable distance of 14 blocks approx. to the Texas theatre but perhaps somewhat less, if he was picked up by someone beforehand. Still quite a few blocks at the least. During this westerly journey he is seen by probably no less than a dozen people: The proprietor of Clarke's barbershop (and customers – add two more), The bystanders who witnessed the 'fight' at the corner of East Tenth and Marsallis which included Cecil Smith, Jimmy Holan (and bystanders - add two more). William L Smith, walking past each other on the 500 block East Tenth. Jimmy Burt and William Smith (505 East Tenth at corner with Denver). James Archer and Jimmy Brewer, who saw him go behind their truck while they were sitting eating lunch in Denver street at the corner with Tenth.


For the most part, of those witnesses who offered an identification of this man (either officially or unofficially), identified him as Oswald. The one exception was Burt, who refused to say it was Oswald.


We have Brownlow's comment where he infers the walking man was the one who was stabbed, “...jumped another man at the corner, who was then 'violently' stabbed”. However Cecil Smith's description is ambivalent and doesn't say which man was stabbed, “one of the two individuals was stabbed”. So, there does not appear to be any other witness statements verifying who was stabbed at the corner. I note also that there is no witness comments about either the walking man or his assailant continuing to walk west along 10th. But apparently someone did, seen by Smith, Burt, Smith, Archer and Brewer only minutes later.


If it was one of the attackers who was stabbed, this would go a long way to explaining why he was quickly bundled into the car by the other three assailants. If it was the walking man who was stabbed, then bundling him into the car doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless they wanted to protect his identity for some reason. And it certainly doesn't explain why a man continues walking west along Tenth within the same time frame.


Looking at the situation from the outside 50 + years later, the fact that a car pulls up and a group attack a walking man, strongly suggests to me that they were already looking for him, pursuing him, determined to stop him perhaps?


Witnesses describe this man as 'hurrying'. Continually looking over his shoulder perhaps? Looking worried perhaps? And in the latter part of his journey (after the 'fight') looking dishevelled perhaps? Certainly he is behaving in a manner that attracts attention from all witnesses. Could it suggest a man, who is moving away from a 'situation', a man who is fleeing from other people perhaps?


So, as usual, we are left with several conundrums.

  1. Where did this man's journey originate?
  2. Was it the same man who made the entire journey to Patton?
  3. What was the motive of the assailants at the corner of Marsallis?
  4. And if Tippit's murder was an 'ambush', how on earth could the conspirators rely on the walking man to rendevouz at the exact time needed?



There was a church, the Abundant Life Baptist Church (??) (currently called the Greater El Bethel Baptist church on East Ninth), further east from Lancaster (first sighting) that might have relevance as to starting point. But little else of any significance. Another 'safe house' perhaps?

The 'fight' to me is somehow crucial. If the original walking man was stabbed and bundled into a fleeing car, then who is the man that continues walking??
How could this walking man possibly rendevouz with co-conspirators at exactly the right time??

If, for the sake of argument, we took away the possibility that Tippit's murder was an 'ambush' and that the others were not present (even though I have argued that they were present), and we also suppose that the original walker was not the man stabbed but he continued his journey west after the 'fight', then we can accept that Tippit's encounter with this man was random and unfortunately escalated quickly. Remembering that if the man had just been involved in a stabbing incident, then he would likely look dishevelled, have a heightened stress level and be 'trigger-happy' perhaps?

I find this episode an intriguing chapter in Tippit's murder. Perhaps I have provided more questions than answers. I have tried to dissect it logically but like everything else in this case, all the puzzle pieces just don't fit! The fact than a man undertook a longish journey west along Tenth street in the ten minutes before and after 1,00 pm is beyond doubt. Too many people saw him and most said he resembled Oswald. So a man walks a long way to eventually encounter Tippit. He gets involved in a fight along the way and possibly stabs a man. Later, when confronted , he kills a policeman. If the sightings of a second police care and another man present at the scene, can be argued away, then the possibility of a random encounter is there.

Any questions hahahaha?
Peter,

A lot to take in here.
I'm sorry to keep asking mate but do you have any links, references, material/reports, statements, affidavits etc regarding these witnesses who allegedly may have observed walking man and the fight/stabbing?
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Peter Johnsen
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on Thu 12 Mar 2020, 5:54 pm
Hi Mick,
The following books, journals and articles were used to write the above piece:
'Into the Nightmare...", Joseph McBride
"Harvey and Lee', John Armstrong
'Why Officer Tippit stopped his killer', Jack Myers, Kennedy and King site
'The Radical Right and the Murder of John F Kennedy', Harrison Livingstone
'The Murder of JD Tippit Parts I and II', Snr Dusty Rohde
'The Tippit Case in the New Millenium', James diEugenio, Kennedys and King site
'Revisiting the JD Tippit Murder', JFK's Coup site
'With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Tippit', Dale Myers
Pulte and Brownlow - Youtube discussion
Brownlow various Youtube videos
Burt : various articles. WC Vol VII
William Arthur Smith: various articles below, WC Vol VII
et all

Cecil Smith account particularly in Dale Myer's book. Burt and Will Smith in WC Vol VII, Clarke (unsure), Jimmy Nolan (Brownlow).

One of the major problems with this issue, is that you are dealing with 'local, unsubstantiated, rumour, especially via Pulte and Brownlow. BUT why isn't this legitimate information? Don't the locals always know what happened?? Too often dismissed when the info is source material really. Jimmy Holan, who would be 73 yrs of age if still alive, would be a VERY interesting person to talk to. I certainly believe these people over and above any WC bullshit that I read!!
One thing I would like to say Mick is, when does knowledge become accepted knowledge? Do I need to present all sources for every piece written? I don't necessarily see that in other posts that I've read. Contentious issues I can understand the need for verification but surely some facts become permanent and don't need continual re-sourcing?
Mick Purdy
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on Sat 14 Mar 2020, 11:37 am
Peter thanks for the source references.

Fair point about the speculation. I've speculated many times here. Based hopefully on reports, statements, witness accounts and testimonies. Yes I have tried to join the dots. Hopefully in an informed way.

As you say it's sprinkled in all areas of the forum's topics here. But I think in the main it's been used sparingly and grounded in reasonably solid evidence, at least that's my take. 

When does knowledge become accepted knowledge? 

You mean like we've seen with the WC nonsense? 
Like we see with other researchers who peddle obvious propaganda for their own pet theories which have become so entrenched as the truth that most of their readers can no longer tell the difference between fact or fiction. And then those lies are perpetuated as truth ad infinitum.

Accepted knowledge for me doesn't necessarily translate to the truth at least that's my take, in some cases it's just some version of a narrative which has been repeated often enough until it has become acceptable to a majority of its listeners. Become their truth!

I certainly wasn't being smug in asking for sources, but in fairness your Walking man post claims that their may have been a fight or a stabbing just prior to Tippit being murdered. As this is something that may be contentious for some then I think it was reasonable to request source references for that claim.

I only asked for references for the witnesses who claimed to have seen Oswald inside the theater between 1.00pm and 1.45pm  because I'm working on a witness list for that event. If you had new witnesses or any leads I would be extremely  interested. So would others. This forum is about having this case reopened. Anything new to be found in the case is of value. 

If you believe there has been a double standard here, at least regarding any of my posts with regards to source referencing then I apologise.
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Peter Johnsen
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on Sat 14 Mar 2020, 7:20 pm
Hi Mick, thanks for the feedback. I fully agree with rigid documentation. My starting point is that the WC, for the most part, is a complete fiction - a total fairy tale to fit into an acceptable, believable narrative. Given that, researchers are thus able to develop and present plausible possibilities. Yes, call them theories, and I know to real analysts, theories are not acceptable. Oh well, I'll just keep plugging away. I also realise that wild speculation is a negative and I am constantly learning that my 'reality' can be different to others' 'reality'. However, surely there is a body of basic evidence that is accepted by all but apparently not.
I have no new witnesses in the theatre. However, please see a previous post of mine on the Texas theatre thread re. the long term cleaner at the theatre who told Kittrell (Texas Employment Service) that the Dallas Police searched the theatre very early on the morning of the 22nd!!!. That is a lead, a huge lead and the route and story to its revelation are quite believable.
The other point I would like to make relates to the walking man post. A man may have completed a walk along East Tenth, albeit say 2/3 minutes prior to the 'fight' timing and was not impacted by the fight in any way - it being totally unrelated. (Although Burt, Smiths x 2, Brewer et al puts something of a lie to that. Just trying to come up with some truth to Tippit's murder. Cheers.
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Peter Johnsen
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on Sun 15 Mar 2020, 10:26 am
In questioning locals, Brownlow discovered that one of the bystanders at the 'fight' at East Tenth and Marsallis, was a young sixteen year old, Jimmy Holan. He was the son of Doris Holan (who provided evidence from her vantage point directly opposite the murder scene). If he is still alive, he would be 73 yrs of age.
He would also likely know or know of Burt, Smith, Markham's son et al in what seemed to be a fairly tight neighbourhood. Which could tie in with Greg's notion of the murder being related to other criminal activity.
In Brownlow's retelling, apparently Holan raced back home after witnessing the fight, only to find that his 'sensational' story being 'gazzumped' by an even bigger story of the murder of a policeman opposite his house!
Do we have members available here who are Dallas residents that could look up a phone book to see if he is still with us. A worthy interviewee I'd say. I have so much confidence in the locals' stories. Even where there is embellishment or straight out rumour, there is always an element/core of truth in it.
Terry W. Martin
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on Mon 16 Mar 2020, 5:37 am
Peter,

A fascinating piece of the puzzle, for sure.

I have always contended that the Tippit killing was completely unrelated to the assassination. The DPS was into a lot of dirty stuff - guns, drugs, human trafficking, etc - and I consider their part in the coverup of the assassination shows where their interests intersected J Edgar Hoover's (whose cover-up went in a separate direction), the Secret Service coverup, and the CIA coverup. Four different coverups and each with their own particular brand of disinformation has made for an extremely murky case.

Lee Farley had posted several years ago (can't remember the thread) about the Markhams being connected to the Clyde Barrow gang and that got me to looking into the shady underbelly of Oak Cliff. It would seem that the entire Bonnie & Clyde tale was not quite what the paragons of virtue signaling over at the FBI told us it was. Not even close.

I began to understand that there is a different form of reality in Oak Cliff and the world they inhabit. I am certain the killing of Tippit is related to the knifing you mentioned and it ties into the police call to the library and the reason why the Texas Theater was searched on that fateful morning.

I have no evidence or references to point anyone to, just a hunch. It was a bizarre feeling when researching all the Oak Cliff connections - world going pear-shaped and all - but there is a different world we have not yet seen. Perhaps interviewing Holan or anyone else there might be helpful.

And it might settle the ghost of Clyde Barrow, if he is still lingering there.

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Goban Saor
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on Mon 16 Mar 2020, 6:12 am
That seems like an interesting line of enquiry to pursue, Peter.

I’m in Ireland, so I’m not in the best position to take it up. With a bit of googling I found this James Holan, owner since Dec 1999 at BlackBeltShop.com in the Dallas/Forth Worth area:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-holan-57239722/

He’s also here on Facebook, if somebody wanted to ask him the right questions:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10216079103874690&set=ecnf.1362486604&type=3&theater

He seems too young – by about 15 years I’d say – to be the Jimmy Holan you refer to.  He could be a son or other relation though, and he might know if your Jimmy Holan is alive and if so how he could be contacted.
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Peter Johnsen
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on Mon 16 Mar 2020, 10:23 pm
Jimmy Holan's son, James?? Jimmy would be 73.
Yes, I think at the time, many locals knew this 'back story' but they closed up. The Dallas Police's harassment, intimidation, assault on witnesses that did come forward, pushed everyone else into the back ground, too scared to ever tell their stories publicly.
So many of the characters, so many locations, so many of the events of that day happened in Oak Cliff. Your estimation of a murky underworld is fascinating.
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