JFK Assassination

First topic message reminder :

I'm curious to know why no one is interested in Boris Pash? A man who lied to Church Senate Committee about his retirement to cover up his knowledge of Oswald

Greg wrote:We concentrate on the wrong end. The real MKULTRA is convincing someone that e.g RFK must die! Getting them to "do" it is the easy part after that. You can learn it from any cult manual. And when I say "do" it, I mean actually fire the weapon. Since however, you're unlikely to be a crack shot, or in any way shape or form, know which part of the body to hit (if you can hit it all), there WILL be another shooter doing the real job. You're just there to take the fall. The MO with Juan Roa Sierra and Sirhan Sirhan. Can Sirhan remember? Is he faking? I don't know. I do know that regardless of what he remembers, he was indeed, a patsy. And there were elements of what may loosely be described as "MKultra" used.

I guess it might help to clarify that this scenario is exactly the conclusion I came to: Sirhan as a decoy shooter with a real hitman getting in close to get "the real job" done. Aside from obvious issues like 3 shots at or near point-blank range into Robert Kennedy (whereas no one has placed Sirhan closer to his supposed target than 3 or 4 feet), this is also strongly suggested by indications of Sirhan's gun range target practice consisting of rapid-firing as opposed to deliberate targeting/aiming.

I didn't want to divert this thread (other than to make my very important opinions known ..... and give Greg an opportunity to plug the next volume). But I do think people tend to get confused on the subject of MK/ULTRA, as it's too often cited or mentioned as if its a foregone conclusion that not only were these gross experimentations successful in providing techniques in controlling people's minds, but that a program was in place utilizing those techniques effectively in getting various persons to do dirty deeds (Sirhan, Arthur Bremer, Hinkley, etc). I THINK I'm getting a better understanding of Greg's bigger picture arguments on this, as in the influencing/molding of character/personality/psychological development.

The only further point I would make is that there are historically tried-and-true methods of getting people to do things (blackmail; various forms of coercion like threatening one's family; various forms of inducement; etc) without there having to be a fearful program of effectively controlling people's minds out there. In Sirhan's case, it might have helped to have plenty of cash on hand to bribe guards to gain access to certain areas; a few mixed drinks to bolster one's confidence; maybe some narcotics; and definitely a hot babe whose inducements at a critical moment were -- shall we say -- a bit more direct than the polka dots on her dress triggering a trance.

For anyone who's interested, John Marks' The Search for the Manchurian Candidate is available for free as a downloadable PDF. It's an excellent read.

http://lilleprinsforlag.com/The%20Search%20for%20the%20Manchurian%20Candidate.pdf



PS: on an entirely unrelated note, I think Ernie Lazar deserves some kind of award for his patience and endurance in dealing with one of the most exasperating and unusual individuals ever encountered on this earth.

Dan (and Greg),

Whatever it was that motivated Sirhan -- hypnosis, self-hypnosis, other enticements -- the only point I was trying to make was that I don't believe the case for LHO is analogous, at least in terms of his role on 11/22. I do not doubt that LHO's persona was shaped and manipulated from adolescence onward in order to create a particular usable profile/legend, but when I hear about MK/ULTRA -- whether such a program was successful or not -- I think of some sort of psychological inducement to commit the crime, and even to sacrifice himself by so doing.  I have doubts about this particular interpretation because the state of the evidence just doesn't seem to support the idea that Oswald was even supposed to be near the sniper's nest, let alone be caught with rifle in hand. That's all I guess I was really saying.  I think there were other things that may have led to his involvement, direct or indirect, with some of the conspirators; what his state of mind was or what he thought he was doing that day, I do not know. But the MO for the setup seems different to me from the Gaitan or RFK murders.  Perhaps my thinking is just in need of more sophistication on this particular point.

On the other hand, MK/ULTRA may very well have embraced a much wider range of activity than this kind of "programming"; from that standpoint I would not find its relevance to LHO without credibility.

I have not, I confess, read Marks' book, though I have seen it referenced.  Thanks for the link.

I have real problems with all the Mk Ultra stuff.

You want to kill someone?

Years programming/brainwashing/drugging with unpredicatble outcome or a bomb/sniper from close/long range?

Simpler is better.

Albert Rossi wrote:Dan (and Greg),

Whatever it was that motivated Sirhan -- hypnosis, self-hypnosis, other enticements -- the only point I was trying to make was that I don't believe the case for LHO is analogous, at least in terms of his role on 11/22. I do not doubt that LHO's persona was shaped and manipulated from adolescence onward in order to create a particular usable profile/legend, but when I hear about MK/ULTRA -- whether such a program was successful or not -- I think of some sort of psychological inducement to commit the crime, and even to sacrifice himself by so doing.  I have doubts about this particular interpretation because the state of the evidence just doesn't seem to support the idea that Oswald was even supposed to be near the sniper's nest, let alone be caught with rifle in hand. That's all I guess I was really saying.  I think there were other things that may have led to his involvement, direct or indirect, with some of the conspirators; what his state of mind was or what he thought he was doing that day, I do not know. But the MO for the setup seems different to me from the Gaitan or RFK murders.  Perhaps my thinking is just in need of more sophistication on this particular point.

On the other hand, MK/ULTRA may very well have embraced a much wider range of activity than this kind of "programming"; from that standpoint I would not find its relevance to LHO without credibility.

I have not, I confess, read Marks' book, though I have seen it referenced.  Thanks for the link.

You're welcome Albert. I stumbled across it several years ago at the local library while looking for other things. Picked it up out of curiosity and frankly expected to find a lot of unverified and unverifiable claims about untold numbers of people being mind-controlled in every walk of life. Not at all; I think you'll find it to be as I found it: an excellent and extremely important bit of history and good reading, albeit very disturbing in the details of what went on of course. I was surprised to find it online as pdf a few years ago, but it's great that it's freely available to anyone who's interested in reading it.

I understood your original point re Oswald and tend to agree on that as well as your own counterpoint on the issues about "a wider range of activity." Thanks to Richard Helms, we're left with ample opportunity to speculate about the whole program in a large variety of ways: he probably had almost all documentary evidence destroyed for the simple reason of it being incriminating evidence which should've led to indictments and convictions for the most gross abuses and crimes; but in the vacuum of that evidence it's easy for anyone to believe that "the real cover-up" had to do with how damn successful the program was, and so on. Anyway, I thought I would throw my 7 cents in as there seemed a bit of tension arising and see if we could reason out the discussion a bit. I'm currently working on being more mature and responsible, as that kind of thing seems to be expected of me now.

John Mooney wrote:I have real problems with all the Mk Ultra stuff.

You want to kill someone?

Years programming/brainwashing/drugging with unpredicatble outcome or a bomb/sniper from close/long range?

Simpler is better.

John, the racing term "horses for courses" seems appropriate. It depends on your options for who you can use and what outcome you want to achieve.

On a broader note, it was thought/hoped in those less sophisticated times by agencies such as the CIA that it may be possible to raise an army of such "mind-controlled" soldiers. CIA documents spell that out. Did they achieve it? No, of course not - and I agree the term is bandied about to cover a whole range of killings where it is not appropriate.

In the case of Roa, you were dealing with a man steeped in Catholic mysticism and cultural superstitions, with no prospects, no education to speak of, but yearning for something "higher" in life. Those are the sort of people cults like AMORC attracts and WANTS.

So that's the starting point. He wants SOMETHING - and AMORC is there to show him how to get it - it is the answer to all his needs and wants. That makes him malleable. He will follow instructions - which at first will seem innocuous "self-improvement" type stuff - but it will build and build until you are trapped and you have to keep giving more of yourself and your will in exchange for "the truths" and the "light" being offered. 

With someone like Roa, it was NOT difficult, nor would it take years. And it did include incentives. He did tell people he was coming into some money by acting as a servant on an expedition into "wild country". It was for that, that he actually bought the weapon. In getting someone to do what you want, you need not limit yourself as to methods. Roa also believed he had summoned (through an AMORC ritual) the reincarnation  of Francisco de Paula Santander who had been charged with plotting the assassination of Simon Bolivar more than a century before. 

With Sirhan, I believe he was simply promised if he followed instructions and performed certain rituals - he would get what he most wanted - sex with a particular young lady. Her name appears in his notes more than that of RFK and two notes in the book refer to Crowley sex rituals. When it was suggested that this girl be put on the witness stand as a defense witness, Sirhan violently objected and tried to change his plea to guilty to prevent it. 
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t32-sirhan-sex-magick

Some very lucid and sensible dialogue on one way in which deception under hypnosis may get someone to act against their own beliefs: 

The very uncomfortable and very serious question, then, is whether an exceptionally suggestible human brain, manipulated in just the right way, might be seduced by its delusions into committing an act far beyond the violation of a dietary code — namely, gunning down a gifted politician in the early stages of an auspicious bid for the American presidency. Could a hypno-programmed Sirhan Sirhan really have fired on Kennedy if he didn't actually want to?

There is not a simple answer. It is all but inconceivable that Sirhan could have been picked up off the street and then successfully hypnotized to kill against his will after one session with a master hypnotist, but if hypnosis is combined with brainwashing regimens and used to make persistent suggestions that a subject misperceive external circumstances and re-contextualize personal beliefs, its limits are not well defined, Kluft said.

"Post-hypnotic subjects can be induced to misunderstand their circumstances and, as a result of them misunderstanding their circumstances, do and say some things that are very likely to be potentially detrimental and injurious," said Kluft, careful to note that he cannot speculate on Sirhan's past or present mental state specifically, as he has not personally evaluated him. "In the most general sense, you can't make a person do something against their principles with hypnosis, but you can deceive them as to what's truly the case so that they may wind up doing something that they themselves regard as reprehensible but that they did under circumstances of not really getting the whole picture."
http://www.livescience.com/17456-rfk-assassination-sirhan-sirhan-hypnotized.html

John, bombs and snipers also and maybe even more-so - offer no guarantee of a predictable outcome. That Castro is still among the living is proof-positive of that. Also if captured, there is no guarantee that the sniper/bomber won't squeal like a stuck pig. 

What we have in the cases of Roa and Sirhan are two loners with psychological hang-ups, both fumbling around for answers to their existence... who are offered those answers and then duped. The two of them bought their own weapons and did fire those weapons at the target. Open and shut cases. 

With Oswald -- the profile he was fitted with initially had nothing to do with using him as a patsy in an assassination. I have come to the view that with the assassination, he was manipulated without all the mumbo-jumbo into position - end of story.

If mods want to look at this thread and split it, please do, though the thread title does leave areas of discussion wide open.

I suppose if Hasan feels any need to, I have no problem with that; but like you say, Greg, the thread title is pretty open-ended (even as to "Kennedy"). I expect however that Mr. gerrrycam would prefer that his thread return to Boris Pash sooner rather than later. I don't have any more to add unless someone asks about something for me to reply to; and to say your latest post is excellent in assessing the issues involved, particularly the lucid and sensible part about hypnosis.

I enjoyed the very lucid contributions by both Dan and Greg, but would second splitting off the thread, if gerrycam agrees.  I guess I was the one responsible for pulling the thread this way, though I (and Terlin) were actually responding to a set of statements about Oswald's ostensible disposition to violence originally introduced, it seems, as an extension of the original topic here.

ITS great to see that were getting dialog going

Greg,

I agree people can be (and have been) tricked/blackmailed/bribed/threatened into doing things.

That's not MK Ultra though. MK Ultra is commonly portrayed as the mindless human robot programmed to trigger when required.

MK Ultra is too James Bond to me.

John Mooney wrote:Greg,

I agree people can be (and have been) tricked/blackmailed/bribed/threatened into doing things.

That's not MK Ultra though. MK Ultra is commonly portrayed as the mindless human robot programmed to trigger when required.

MK Ultra is too James Bond to me.

Yeah,

but what I'm saying John is that we can't ignore evidence of elements of alleged mind control techniques. There seems to be in some cases, a mix of the simple old fashioned methods and elements of MKUltra.

Roa - 
seems to be expecting to come into money
self-hypnosis
persuasion, psychological ploys eg the appearance of Santander - a famed Presidential assassination plotter
ego boosting ploys/ego destruction

Sirhan
probable promises of winning the girls he wants more than anything
self-hypnosis
automatic writing
Other?

Ruby
Metaphmetamine
$40,000 debt over his head. Note that the debt is to the IRS under Treasury - with the Secret Service under the same umbrella
Expected to soon move to more expensive apartment
Expected to soon open another nightclub
Hypnosis? He knew several stage hypnotists and his current MC had performed hypnosis as part of his act in the past - including when in the army

There is some crossover here into ARTICHOKE which was involved in interrogation techniques. Were the Chinese using drugs and hypnosis to make prisoners confess to germ warfare or to turn their backs on the US? Did the Soviets use drugs to get confessions during the show trials as widely believed? Maybe - maybe not in both cases. But what is certain is, if either were used, they were not used alone. Sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, psychological and physical torture, dependence and other methods were employed together to get those results.   
                   
I think in Roa and Sirhan, it is foolhardy to dismiss the AMORC connection especially, and all that it may imply regarding cultish mind manipulating techniques.

Al that said... I do understand your concern: that it is - or seems to be - in a sense, over-engineering a means of committing an assassination.  

But if I am right about Roa and Sirhan -- it worked - and in the case of Roa, it worked on many levels where simply hiring a professional assassin may not have - or worse, may have been traceable back to the plotters.

greg parker wrote:
Ruby
Metaphmetamine
$40,000 debt over his head. Note that the debt is to the IRS under Treasury - with the Secret Service under the same umbrella
Expected to soon move to more expensive apartment
Expected to soon open another nightclub
Hypnosis? He knew several stage hypnotists and his current MC had performed hypnosis as part of his act in the past - including when in the army

Greg,

Your supposition that it worked on Roa and Sirhan seems well founded. Are you saying that Ruby was another of those being controlled in the same manner?

And the debt to the Treasury plus his hosting of the drinking Secret Service agents is quite provocative and has very dark overtones.

But what was the mention of the hypnotist in stage shows? Were some of them MK/ULTRA (possible, I assume) or are you saying he just had some familiarity with the subject?

terlin wrote:

greg parker wrote:
Ruby
Metaphmetamine
$40,000 debt over his head. Note that the debt is to the IRS under Treasury - with the Secret Service under the same umbrella
Expected to soon move to more expensive apartment
Expected to soon open another nightclub
Hypnosis? He knew several stage hypnotists and his current MC had performed hypnosis as part of his act in the past - including when in the army

Greg,

Your supposition that it worked on Roa and Sirhan seems well founded. Are you saying that Ruby was another of those being controlled in the same manner?

And the debt to the Treasury plus his hosting of the drinking Secret Service agents is quite provocative and has very dark overtones.

But what was the mention of the hypnotist in stage shows? Were some of them MK/ULTRA (possible, I assume) or are you saying he just had some familiarity with the subject?

Ruby's MC was Bill DeMar. He had a long list of stage skills from comedy to ventriloquism and from mentalism to hypnotism. When asked about his act by the WC, the one skill he neglected to mention was hypnotism.

There is however an old flyer on-line or even in MFF that lists hypnotism as one of the strings to his bow, and i confirmed this with him years ago as a "fan" wanting to know how to break into showbiz with an act based around hypnosis. He replied by trying to sell me one of his "how-to" videos.

There is also this reference: 

The army was known to use stage hypnotists in some of its own efforts in the search for "candidates". 

Demar made headlines post-assassination claiming he had seen Oswald in the Carousel. 

There were other hypnotists Ruby knew as well, with one in particularly being a very shady character. His name escapes me for the moment - but his life is quite a story.

Do I think Ruby was hypnotized by Demar or some other? I don't know. The case is not as strong as it is in the other two. It remains in the realm of possibility. I think it more likely though, that he was influenced by the effects of the drugs and promises of debt wiping, extra money and fame. Recall that Ruby had Olsen in his ear all night on the Friday (or Saturday?), and then there were also those pamphlets on heroism etc found in the car. In short, I think Ruby was in such a state of drug and debt-induced turpitude, he could have been talked into anything - and believed anything if it pointed to a way out of his debt and into a higher strata of society.

I would like to jump to Roll of Shalikashvile family in my version of assassination
Dimitre served in Polish Calvery with George           De Mohrenschildt,
Dimitre and Boris Pash Papers where deposited with HUDSON Institude  Via Dimitre De Mohrenchild (brother of George)
Pash planned assassination of Dag  Hammarskjold
Othar S was with Special Forces in Congo at time
John S was a Army instructor in use of Sam misiles in 1961
 1963 Othar S was Trainer of Special Forces at Fort Bragg
1963 John S was instuctor at Fort Sill. 206 miles from Dallas
1963 Pash was chief of Defence Soviet Inteligence

.Shalikashvili Home was Two castles—both belonging to his great aunt, the Countess Julie Pappenheim
... Dimitri and his SS troops surrendered to British forces in itali and as a prisoner of war was slated to be returned to Soviet army according to Yalta Treaty but someone  intervened on Dimitri behave ( James Angleton?)and he was set free
(R to L) John, father Dimitri, and brother Othar in costume in Pappenheim, Germany

greg parker wrote:I think it more likely though, that he was influenced by the effects of the drugs and promises of debt wiping, extra money and fame. Recall that Ruby had Olsen in his ear all night on the Friday (or Saturday?), and then there were also those pamphlets on heroism etc found in the car. In short, I think Ruby was in such a state of drug and debt-induced turpitude, he could have been talked into anything - and believed anything if it pointed to a way out of his debt and into a higher strata of society.

Yes, I see. The state of his anxiety, he could have been talked into anything even without the hypnosis. Just as in the case with Roa and Sirhan, there was a solution to their problems just one small act away... and it was really, after all, just a small thing to be done and all their troubles would be gone.

It is marvelous how well people can delude themselves.

(And how many of them wind up on these forums... not mentioning names, of course.)

That would clear up a lot. Thanks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Pash

After the war, Pash served in various military intelligence positions. He served under General Douglas MacArthur in Japan in 1946 and 1947. From 1948 to 1951, he served as a military representative to the Central Intelligence Agency.^[3] During this time, he was in charge of a controversial CIA program called PB-7, which had been formed to handle "wet affairs" like kidnappings and assassinations. There is no evidence that he ever carried out any, and denied that he had in testimony before the Church Committee in 1975.^[6] He served as Special Forces planning officer with the U.S. forces in Austria from 1952 to 1953. His final postings were back in the United States, as | Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence of the Sixth Army from 1953 to 1956), and in the office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Guided Missiles in Washington, D.C., from 1956 until his retirement from the Army in 1957.^[3] In 1954, he testified in the Oppenheimer security hearing, recounting the misgivings that he had about Oppenheimer in 1943.^[7]
On leaving the Army, Pash became chief of the Eastern European and USSR Division of the Quartermaster Technological Intelligence Agency. In 1961 he transferred to the United States Army Foreign Science and Technology Center. He retired from the civil service in June 1963.^[8]
In retirement, Pash published The Alsos Mission, a book recounting his wartime experiences in Europe, in 1980. He was inducted into the Military Intelligence Hall of Fame in 1988.^[9] His decorations included the Army Distinguished Service Medal,^[9] the Legion of Merit, the Order of the British Empire and the Order of St. George.^[10]
Pash died on 11 May 1995 in Greenbrae, California, and was buried in the Serbian Cemetery in Colma, California. He was survived by his wife Gladys and son Edgar.^[9] His papers are in the Hoover Institute at Stanford University.^{[1]
http://www.stnicholasdc.org/files/booklets/dedication_booklet.PDF
if your interested in pash's importance in Russian Orthadox Church in America}

Othar Shalikashvili
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[th]Othat Joseph Shalikashvili[/th][th]Born[/th][th]Allegiance[/th][th]Service/branch[/th][th]Years of service[/th][th]Rank[/th][th]Commands held[/th][th]Battles/wars[/th][th]Other work[/th]

(1933-08-26) August 26, 1933 (age 80) Milanówek, Poland

United States

United States Army

1955–2001

Colonel

506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 10th Special Forces Group

Vietnam War

U.S. Secretary of Defense Senior Military Consultant on Georgian Defense Matters

Othar Joseph Shalikashvili (Georgian: ოთარ შალიკაშვილი; born August 26, 1933) is a retired United States colonel of Georgian origin. He is the elder brother of General John Shalikashvili.
Othar J. Shalikashvili was born in Milanówek, Poland, into the family of the émigré Georgian officer Prince Dimitri Shalikashvili and his wife Countess Maria Rüdiger-Belyaeva. The family moved to the United States in the 1950s. Having graduated from the Officer Candidate School in 1955, Othar J. Shalikashvili joined the U.S. Army and participated in the Special Forces Qualification Course. From December 1970 to May 1971, he commanded the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment in the Vietnam War. Since 1971, he worked for the Joint Chiefs of Staff and served as a military instructor. From 1977 to 1978, he was the commander of the 10th Special Forces Group.
After his retirement from the army service, Shalikashvili was appointed, in 2001, as a U.S. Secretary of Defense Senior Military Consultant on Georgian Defense Matters.^[1] He is also a member of the Board of Advisers of the Georgian Association in the United States of America.^[2]
Ancestry[edit]

WORLD AUGUST 23, 1969
Green Berets and the CIA
BY L. FLETCHER PROUTY
Share
  http://www.newrepublic.com/article/world/92441/green-berets-cia-robert-rheault

BITS & PIECES

A GREEN BERET ON THE PERIPHERY OF

THE JFK ASSASSINATION

by

Daniel Marvin

[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/M Disk/Marvin Daniel/Item 01.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/M%20Disk/Marvin%20Daniel/Item%2001.pdf[/url]

gerrrycam wrote:Counter-Intelligence Aspects of the JFK Assassination

Written by Mike Sylwester

http://scribblguy.50megs.com/counter.htm

Interesting article. A lot I had read before but what I really found interesting as it was drawn together in one place was that - yes, the intelligence chiefs ran all these crazy ops - they saw psychiatrists to help them keep sane.

It makes me wonder who the shrinks were working for or were they running an op for someone else?

Just a thot.

At Church Committee on Jan 7,1976 Boris Pash testifide about E H Hunts accusations that he was head of  Assassination unit PB7 His Testimony was mostly plausible deniability untill the last question what did you move onto after PB7. His answer is most interesting. Please see Page 59
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1430&relPageId=59

"Let's go off the record" the Good Senator says.  You mean there's another record?

As a reference point, Colonel Orlov was with George DeMohrenschildt when George paid his first visit to Lee and Marina Oswald,
The mystery of who was Col Lawrence Orlov, has been solved.....
Paper: Patriot-News, The (Harrisburg, PA)
Deceased: Lawrence Orlov
Date: September 22, 1989
CARLISLE - Lawrence Orlov, 90, formerly of Dallas, died yesterday in Forest Park Nursing Center.
He was a member of the Unitarian Church, a retired oil and gas operator, a veteran of World Wars I and II and a Mason.
Surviving are a son, William S. of Carlisle, and two grandchildren.
Services will be held at the convenience of the family.
The Neill Funeral Home, Camp Hill, is handling arrangements.
Orlov, is listed as a member of Lambda Chi Alpha fraternity. Colonel Lawrence Orlov was a very close relative, his son in fact.
 A small clue 1n 1924 Pash and Orlov are the same age and may  have shared history
Bishop Theophilus’s son, Boris Pashkovich, lived at that time in Los Angeles and was a member of our parish. Among those who took part in the activities of our parish at that time one must mention: N.J. Beliakov, K.I. Dragun, I.I. Nasedkin, P.I. Orlov,


Oswald and Albert Schweitzer College by Greg Parker (thanks)
http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2005/07/oswald-and-albert-schweitzer-college.html

And the Russians are STILL coming !!!  Don't forget George's bruddr.  Maybe Putin shall release some old KGB files if things start going south (or east?) for him.  This is complicated stuff, tovarich.  Looking forward to more of your findings/observations.  Thank you very much.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=31680&relPageId=1
CIA file on Howard Hunt a bit off topic but related in number of ways