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Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?

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Tue 01 Oct 2019, 2:06 pm
greg parker wrote:
Who Really Killed Kennedy by Jerome Fucking Corsi.

Corsi's face reminded me of a beet in some photos so I made this meme a while back. 

	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Corsisqueeze
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Tue 01 Oct 2019, 4:52 pm
greg parker wrote:
barto wrote:
No idea which book this is from. Anyone?
	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 F1c06010
Who Really Killed Kennedy by Jerome Fucking Corsi.


Thanks Greg. I have vaguely heard of it.

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Tue 01 Oct 2019, 6:13 pm
Corsi formerly worked for Infowars. 

As far as those pages go, it's not clear to me if he is referring to interviews he conducted, or others, but in general terms, at least these pages seem legit and fairly accurate.

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Tue 01 Oct 2019, 6:48 pm
These pages are another nail in the Beckley coffin, Steve Roe take note!

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Wed 20 Nov 2019, 9:36 am

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Thu 21 Nov 2019, 8:06 am
The copy of the Corsi book I got from Vinny has links to a few bits.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16245&relPageId=26
a better version of these pages can be downloaded in PDF format from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1obCv_t82hMDKLKQq6krSNGw5hj3GSUts/view?usp=sharing

But what is more important is that the pages above are attributed to Corsi's book and that is wrong!


It is from Joachim Joesten's Oswald Assassin or Fall Guy?

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Thu 21 Nov 2019, 9:50 am
barto wrote:The copy of the Corsi book I got from Vinny has links to a few bits.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16245&relPageId=26
a better version of these pages can be downloaded in PDF format from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1obCv_t82hMDKLKQq6krSNGw5hj3GSUts/view?usp=sharing

But what is more important is that the pages above are attributed to Corsi's book and that is wrong!


It is from Joachim Joesten's Oswald Assassin or Fall Guy?
My mistake. I took some text from what you posted and found it in Corsi's book. As I said above though, I didn;t know if he as referencing other works or not. Seems what I found associated with Corsi, he either quoted from Joesten - or they both quoted the same text from the 26 volumes.

Anyhow, it makes better sense now because it really did seem too accurate to be Corsi.

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Sat 23 Nov 2019, 11:04 pm
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Sun 24 Nov 2019, 2:38 pm
The FBI report on interview with Herbert Leon Lee.


In this report, HLL states he "had not known anything of Oswald, but that his room-mate, James Watson, had possibly talked to him."  Later in the report, it says "he and Watson had a rented a room at 1026 N. Beckley for about 4 or 5 weeks in October, 1963. They moved from the N Beckley address on November 1." If this is accurate, then he moved in during late September or early October.


These comments led me to believe that HLL and Watson must have shared a room at N. Beckley. But that first statement where he refers to Watson as a room-mate, in context, is referring to the then current arrangement of being what I know as "flat-mates". The second statement does not say they rented a room together at N Beckley. I think what it really meant to say was that they both rented a room there. The report does not indicate which room he occupied at N Beckley.


The FBI report on interview with James Douglas Watson.


This report does not even mention Herbert Lee. It does say that Watson advised he did remember Oswald, that he (Watson) occupied room 17 or 18 and that he was there for about one week "early in November". 


From the above reports, I think HLL did move in during late September/early October and that he occupied Room 0, moving into a larger room within a week or two. Then in the last week of October, Watson moved in to Room 17 or 18. HLL and Watson became friends, got jobs laying floors and began sharing an apartment. On October 14, Oswald was given the now vacant Room 0 and refused a larger room when one became available. I believe the reason was that it wasn't worth the hassle when he was planning on moving out soon anyway to reunite his family.


When Oswald moved in, I believe it went something like this:


Roberts: Your name


LHO: Lee...[pause] Harvey Oswald


Roberts assumes then that his last name is Lee and first initial is H. So she has a H. Lee replacing a H. Lee in Room 0. Oswald rolls with it. It's just a flop house after all, until he gets his family back together. Don't make waves. 


In his interrogation report, Fritz wrote, "one of the officers had told me that he had rented the room on Beckley under the name of O. H. Lee. I asked him why he did this. He said the landlady did it. She didn't understand his name correctly."


The officer allegedly gave this information prior to the commencement of the interrogation. Taken on face value, not only is the address known, but the alias as well, before any cop even steps into the boarding house. We have to assume then, that Fritz is just mixing up his own narrative and that this part of the interrogation *about the alias OH Lee) happened much later than indicated in the report. 


But the main point here is that now Oswald's alleged reply makes sense. If this is right, Roberts did simply get confused about his name, as claimed in the report. And Oswald himself may well have given the address to one of the cops as claimed by Fritz. That would solve the issue of how quickly the cops got to N Beckley. It may be that Weatherford and Walthers also got the number at the Paines and phoned it through for a reverse address check. It just means there effort was superfluous.


New timeline


LATE SEP/EARLY OCT: Herbert Lee arrives from Louisiana and moves into room 0 at 1026 N Beckley. We know the time-frame because he says he was there 4 or 5 weeks and moved out on or about Nov 1. After a week or two, a larger room becomes available and he takes it. This means room 0 is now available again. 

OCT 14: Lee Oswald, who had arrived in Dallas early October from Louisiana via a short stay in Houston, takes the now vacant Room 0 at 1026 N. Beckley. Late October, room 17 or 18 becomes vacant and is offered to Oswald. He rejects it on the basis that he does not plan on being there much longer anyway, so why go to the hassle of changing rooms?

LATE OCT: Jame Watson moves into room 17 or 18 for about a week after Oswald rejects it.  He becomes fast friends with Herbert Lee.

NOV 1: Herbert Lee and James Watson move to a share apartment after scoring jobs as floor layers. 

NOV 15: After work, Oswald is taken to Irving as usual by Buell.

Nov 16:  Oswald and Ruth are checking out apartments in Oak Cliff  (note that the linked article has this happening on the 15th because the docs state about a week before the assassination - but I now think it is far more likely to have happened on Saturday the 16th) then head back to Irving where Ruth makes preliminary calls about hiring a washing machine for Marina.  This indicates some confidence that a place has been found, but is not yet vacant, so it is decided that he stay in Irving to make sure he gets any messages about it and to start packing if they get the word. Before heading to Irving, Ruth stops briefly at the N Beckley apartments where Lee rushes in to grab his few belongings.  This would later be claimed to have happened on Nov 22 and involve just a jacket. The reality may be that the jacket was simply used to wrap and carry a few other things. The trip has a dual purpose. Lee also attempts again to take his driver's test, but is thwarted by the long queue.

NOV 16 or 17: Ruth (falsely) claims in testimony that Oswald phoned to advise of the above failed attempt. Jenner underlines that this must have been a phone call by reminding Ruth that "this was the weekend that Oswald did not come out to Irving". This lie about him not going out, was formulated for the sole purpose of giving Lee an excuse to go a day early the following week  (he was, so it goes, missing Marina) - when in fact, he had been staying there from the 15th on.  

NOV 18: This is the day that Ruth claims she tried to phone Oswald at N. Beckley and was told there was no one by that name living there. The idea that Lee deliberately booked in under a false name and then gave Ruth and Marina the phone number so he could be contacted when Marina went into labor, but then failed to tell them to ask for Mr Lee, has never rung true - it just makes no sense whatsoever - a fact that even Ruth had to admit to in testimony. I do not believe any such call was made though - because again... Lee was staying the whole week at Irving. This claim was made just to provide some "evidence" that Lee was still at the N Beckley address. In doing that, they could not have Marina and Ruth knowing he was going under an alleged alias because that might tend to implicate them. So we end up with the ridiculous story as told by Ruth.  If this is all starting to sound like a tangled web, it is only because there is some truth to that old axiom. 

Nov 18 - 21: There is some talk during this period of the new apartment needing window coverings and Ruth had already given them her spare curtain rods for when they moved. She had wrapped these rods for them and they had then been wrapped again in June's old blanket and left among Lee's stuff in the garage. The rods are mentioned to Buell during the week. It may even have been suggested that Lee should take them to work on Friday with the aim of going to the new digs and putting them in place ready for curtains to be hung when they move in.  But Lee retired early on the 21st and Ruth goes out to the garage, removes the rods from the blanket and hides them, leaving Lee unable to find them before leaving on the Friday morning. 

Nov 22: Lee is not picked up as usual by Buell. He walks up. Buell is running late, so either Lee accepts a lift offered by Bill Randle, who is just about to leave for a job in Austin, or he waits for Buell who - because he is running late drops Lee off at the front of the building. After the assassination, Oswald phones Ruth to tell her what has happened and that there will be no more work (as Ruth would have predicted he would). She tells him to go catch a movie in Oak Cliff - tells him there is a good double-feature at the Texas Theatre and that by the time the movies are over, she'll be able to get over and meet him with the curtain rods. They then can go and see if they can put them up, Marina can shop the next day for the actual curtains.  Ruth waits until the show has started and phones in a report that someone matching the suspect description has gone into the Texas Theatre. She does not know about the Tippit murder. She presumes he has gone up to the balcony because that is where he usually sits - but in this case, he does not, because there are a bunch of boisterous high school kids up there.  Postal also phones but says nothing about the balcony.  She in fact, sees nothing and is merely following Brewer's lead. Neither Brewer nor Postal could have known about the Tippit murder without having a police radio. 

A phone call from Lee to Ruth and then her setting him up to be killed at the Texas Theatre may also provide a reason for Ruth greeting the cops at her door the way she did "I've been expecting you". Maybe because he worked in the building as apologists suggest... but surely for a better reason than that.

The witnesses to Oswald at N. Beckley

Arthur Johnson - co-owner
Gladys Johnson - co-owner
Earlene Roberts - housekeeper

John Carter - Resident per 1964 FBI interview. However other documents indicate Carter may not have been unbiased in that he appears to have been very friendly with the Johnsons
Hugh Slough - resident who gave belated interviews to researchers 
James Watson - resident -  per 1964 FBI interview
Herbert Lee - resident - denied knowing anything about Oswald living at N Beckley but did name Watson as possibly having seen Oswald in 1964 FBI interview. Interviewed also by Gus Russo in 1993 and changed his story.  Told Russo that Oswald would be picked up and dropped off by someone else and that when Oswald moved in, Roberts commented to him that they now had another Mr Lee staying.  I think it is telling that none of them ever mentioned the other Mr Lee to any of the authorities.

May also be telling that Russo omits telling his readers that Leon Lee was a cop by the time of the interview. In other circumstances, surely that would be relevant to adding to his credibility?
	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Lee_ru13

	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Lee_ru14

Russo went on to suggest the best possibility for someone picking him up/dropping him off was Frazier. 
------------------------
I have tried to be impartial in compiling this. While I believe it gets rid of all the anomalies associated with him never living there at all, it may create others that I have not yet worked out. I therefore ask that everyone act as Devil's Advocate here, so any issues can be addressed (if indeed they can be).

I also understand it includes a fair amount of conjecture. But I do believe it is reasonable, given the state of the evidence. 

-------
 


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 10:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Sun 24 Nov 2019, 5:56 pm
Whether he lived there or not, to me, is not the point.
The gun and that stupid holster is way more important and THAT looks a lot more shaky.

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Sun 24 Nov 2019, 6:36 pm
barto wrote:Whether he lived there or not, to me, is not the point.
The gun and that stupid holster is way more important and THAT looks a lot more shaky.
I'm working on the premise that "A Hidell" was a name being used by a Dodd Committee investigator. 

We know he used cops in those roles because he used a cop named Manny Pena in California.

Pena pointed the authorities to the source of the rifle scope, He resurfaced later as a RFK assassination investigator.

So what if the pistol was ordered by a cop, or a cop asset/informant/infiltrator for the Dodd Committee? What do you  think would become of the pistol?  

I think it would be stored among a small arsenal of useless weapons that could be used as throwdowns/plants to justify murder by police.

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Mon 25 Nov 2019, 3:29 pm
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Tue 26 Nov 2019, 8:15 am
greg parker wrote:The FBI report on interview with Herbert Leon Lee.


In this report, HLL states he "had not known anything of Oswald, but that his room-mate, James Watson, had possibly talked to him."  Later in the report, it says "he and Watson had a rented a room at 1026 N. Beckley for about 4 or 5 weeks in October, 1963. They moved from the N Beckley address on November 1." If this is accurate, then he moved in during late September or early October.


These comments led me to believe that HLL and Watson must have shared a room at N. Beckley. But that first statement where he refers to Watson as a room-mate, in context, is referring to the then current arrangement of being what I know as "flat-mates". The second statement does not say they rented a room together at N Beckley. I think what it really meant to say was that they both rented a room there. The report does not indicate which room he occupied at N Beckley.


The FBI report on interview with James Douglas Watson.


This report does not even mention Herbert Lee. It does say that Watson advised he did remember Oswald, that he (Watson) occupied room 17 or 18 and that he was there for about one week "early in November". 


From the above reports, I think HLL did move in during late September/early October and that he occupied Room 0, moving into a larger room within a week or two. Then in the last week of October, Watson moved in to Room 17 or 18. HLL and Watson became friends, got jobs laying floors and began sharing an apartment. On October 14, Oswald was given the now vacant Room 0 and refused a larger room when one became available. I believe the reason was that it wasn't worth the hassle when he was planning on moving out soon anyway to reunite his family.


When Oswald moved in, I believe it went something like this:


Roberts: Your name


LHO: Lee...[pause] Harvey Oswald


Roberts assumes then that his last name is Lee and first initial is H. So she has a H. Lee replacing a H. Lee in Room 0. Oswald rolls with it. It's just a flop house after all, until he gets his family back together. Don't make waves. 


In his interrogation report, Fritz wrote, "one of the officers had told me that he had rented the room on Beckley under the name of O. H. Lee. I asked him why he did this. He said the landlady did it. She didn't understand his name correctly."


The officer allegedly gave this information prior to the commencement of the interrogation. Taken on face value, not only is the address known, but the alias as well, before any cop even steps into the boarding house. We have to assume then, that Fritz is just mixing up his own narrative and that this part of the interrogation *about the alias OH Lee) happened much later than indicated in the report. 


But the main point here is that now Oswald's alleged reply makes sense. If this is right, Roberts did simply get confused about his name, as claimed in the report. And Oswald himself may well have given the address to one of the cops as claimed by Fritz. That would solve the issue of how quickly the cops got to N Beckley. It may be that Weatherford and Walthers also got the number at the Paines and phoned it through for a reverse address check. It just means there effort was superfluous.


New timeline


LATE SEP/EARLY OCT: Herbert Lee arrives from Louisiana and moves into room 0 at 1026 N Beckley. We know the time-frame because he says he was there 4 or 5 weeks and moved out on or about Nov 1. After a week or two, a larger room becomes available and he takes it. This means room 0 is now available again. 

OCT 14: Lee Oswald, who had arrived in Dallas early October from Louisiana via a short stay in Houston, takes the now vacant Room 0 at 1026 N. Beckley. Late October, room 17 or 18 becomes vacant and is offered to Oswald. He rejects it on the basis that he does not plan on being there much longer anyway, so why go to the hassle of changing rooms?

LATE OCT: Jame Watson moves into room 17 or 18 for about a week after Oswald rejects it.  He becomes fast friends with Herbert Lee.

NOV 1: Herbert Lee and James Watson move to a share apartment after scoring jobs as floor layers. 

NOV 15: After work, Oswald is taken to Irving as usual by Buell.

Nov 16:  Oswald and Ruth are checking out apartments in Oak Cliff  (note that the linked article has this happening on the 15th because the docs state about a week before the assassination - but I now think it is far more likely to have happened on Saturday the 16th) then head back to Irving where Ruth makes preliminary calls about hiring a washing machine for Marina.  This indicates some confidence that a place has been found, but is not yet vacant, so it is decided that he stay in Irving to make sure he gets any messages about it and to start packing if they get the word. Before heading to Irving, Ruth stops briefly at the N Beckley apartments where Lee rushes in to grab his few belongings.  This would later be claimed to have happened on Nov 22 and involve just a jacket. The reality may be that the jacket was simply used to wrap and carry a few other things. The trip has a dual purpose. Lee also attempts again to take his driver's test, but is thwarted by the long queue.

NOV 16 or 17: Ruth (falsely) claims in testimony that Oswald phoned to advise of the above failed attempt. Jenner underlines that this must have been a phone call by reminding Ruth that "this was the weekend that Oswald did not come out to Irving". This lie about him not going out, was formulated for the sole purpose of giving Lee an excuse to go a day early the following week  (he was, so it goes, missing Marina) - when in fact, he had been staying there from the 15th on.  

NOV 18: This is the day that Ruth claims she tried to phone Oswald at N. Beckley and was told there was no one by that name living there. The idea that Lee deliberately booked in under a false name and then gave Ruth and Marina the phone number so he could be contacted when Marina went into labor, but then failed to tell them to ask for Mr Lee, has never rung true - it just makes no sense whatsoever - a fact that even Ruth had to admit to in testimony. I do not believe any such call was made though - because again... Lee was staying the whole week at Irving. This claim was made just to provide some "evidence" that Lee was still at the N Beckley address. In doing that, they could not have Marina and Ruth knowing he was going under an alleged alias because that might tend to implicate them. So we end up with the ridiculous story as told by Ruth.  If this is all starting to sound like a tangled web, it is only because there is some truth to that old axiom. 

Nov 18 - 21: There is some talk during this period of the new apartment needing window coverings and Ruth had already given them her spare curtain rods for when they moved. She had wrapped these rods for them and they had then been wrapped again in June's old blanket and left among Lee's stuff in the garage. The rods are mentioned to Buell during the week. It may even have been suggested that Lee should take them to work on Friday with the aim of going to the new digs and putting them in place ready for curtains to be hung when they move in.  But Lee retired early on the 21st and Ruth goes out to the garage, removes the rods from the blanket and hides them, leaving Lee unable to find them before leaving on the Friday morning. 

Nov 22: Lee is not picked up as usual by Buell. He walks up. Buell is running late, so either Lee accepts a lift offered by Bill Randle, who is just about to leave for a job in Austin, or he waits for Buell who - because he is running late drops Lee off at the front of the building. After the assassination, Oswald phones Ruth to tell her what has happened and that there will be no more work (as Ruth would have predicted he would). She tells him to go catch a movie in Oak Cliff - tells him there is a good double-feature at the Texas Theatre and that by the time the movies are over, she'll be able to get over and meet him with the curtain rods. They then can go and see if they can put them up, Marina can shop the next day for the actual curtains.  Ruth waits until the show has started and phones in a report that someone matching the suspect description has gone into the Texas Theatre. She does not know about the Tippit murder. She presumes he has gone up to the balcony because that is where he usually sits - but in this case, he does not, because there are a bunch of boisterous high school kids up there.  Postal also phones but says nothing about the balcony.  She in fact, sees nothing and is merely following Brewer's lead. Neither Brewer nor Postal could have known about the Tippit murder without having a police radio. 

A phone call from Lee to Ruth and then her setting him up to be killed at the Texas Theatre may also provide a reason for Ruth greeting the cops at her door the way she did "I've been expecting you". Maybe because he worked in the building as apologists suggest... but surely for a better reason than that.

The witnesses to Oswald at N. Beckley

Arthur Johnson - co-owner
Gladys Johnson - co-owner
Earlene Roberts - housekeeper

John Carter - Resident per 1964 FBI interview. However other documents indicate Carter may not have been unbiased in that he appears to have been very friendly with the Johnsons
Hugh Slough - resident who gave belated interviews to researchers 
James Watson - resident -  per 1964 FBI interview
Herbert Lee - resident - denied knowing anything about Oswald living at N Beckley but did name Watson as possibly having seen Oswald in 1964 FBI interview. Interviewed also by Gus Russo in 1993 and changed his story.  Told Russo that Oswald would be picked up and dropped off by someone else and that when Oswald moved in, Roberts commented to him that they now had another Mr Lee staying.  I think it is telling that none of them ever mentioned the other Mr Lee to any of the authorities.

May also be telling that Russo omits telling his readers that Leon Lee was a cop by the time of the interview. In other circumstances, surely that would be relevant to adding to his credibility?
	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Lee_ru13

	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Lee_ru14

Russo went on to suggest the best possibility for someone picking him up/dropping him off was Frazier. 
------------------------
I have tried to be impartial in compiling this. While I believe it gets rid of all the anomalies associated with him never living there at all, it may create others that I have not yet worked out. I therefore ask that everyone act as Devil's Advocate here, so any issues can be addressed (if indeed they can be).

I also understand it includes a fair amount of conjecture. But I do believe it is reasonable, given the state of the evidence. 

-------
 
I'm with Greg on this one. This makes some sense of the available evidence. It's not a perfect fit but it's the closest I've seen for Nth. Beckley. 
Now was the holster really found out at the room on Beckley as the cops and Robert's claimed. A little ammo too IIRC. Alexander's my man for the job. Pure speculation of course!

If the above scenario is even close to the truth, I suspect it might be, then Roberts transposed the room 0 details of Lee Oswald's stay directly from the register to her WCH document we see in the record before the registration book was destroyed  Cool.

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Tue 26 Nov 2019, 8:51 am
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm





Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?
Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. No, I hadn't asked him.
Mr. BALL. Did you know that he had personally registered?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. He said the lady didn't understand him?
Mr. FRITZ. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it that way.



Roberts: Your name


LHO: Lee...[pause] Harvey Oswald


Roberts assumes then that his last name is Lee and first initial is H. So she has a H. Lee replacing a H. Lee in Room 0. Oswald rolls with it. It's just a flop house after all, until he gets his family back together. Don't make waves. 

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Tue 26 Nov 2019, 5:28 pm
	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Beckle11

I'll take this as H Lee having not known Oswald personally but knew that his friend Watson may have talked with him.

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Tue 26 Nov 2019, 6:42 pm
Mick Purdy wrote:	Did Oswald deny living at 1026 N Beckley?  - Page 4 Beckle11

I'll take this as H Lee having not known Oswald personally but knew that his friend Watson may have talked with him.
Yep, that is what it conveys.

But remember, Leon was interviewed by Russo in 1993 and gave a completely different story.

Including that he would be picked up and dropped off.

I am usually skeptical of different stories given to authors than was originally given to the WC or FBI. The usual reason I think, is being led by the author into giving an account that suits their theory. Armstrong has got this down to a fine art. Since Russo was suggesting a conspiracy via Castro, at worst, nothing is lost by this scenario and it may actually aid it.

Tbh, I don't now which to go with this. I can imagine Leon having something to hide (I think he did) and that may provide a reason to distance himself.

We also need to note that Watson was there for only a week (according to his own statements to FBI) while Leon was there for 4 or 5 weeks - so on that basis, Leon had more opportunity to have seen Oswald than Watson. We also know that Watson's claim of seeing Oswald in a cafe came to nothing. The FBI interviewed staff at both cafes named and no one at either, had any recollection of Oswald at all.


Last edited by greg parker on Wed 27 Nov 2019, 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 6:32 am
Normally, you could imagine that the early reports were more accurate than versions of the same story conveyed years later by some of the witnesses. That's a problem with this case isn't it? Picking the wheat from the chaff.
There would have been in some cases a valid reason for some of the witnesses to distance themselves, at least that's my thoughts.
Herbert Lee could have easily fallen into this category.

I have no doubt over time the version of events from some of the witnesses may have been conflated and misremembered. One can imagine Lee Herbert not being so forthcoming with regards to having known Oswald at the time the FBI report was taken.

Yes the original FBI report seems to contradict later versions of what Lee recalled and told to researchers. But as you say Greg these versions were offered to researchers who had agenda's.

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 6:57 am
We know Fritz or at least that's who we are told sent detectives to Nth Beckley at 2.40pm, arrived close to 3.00pm. Fritz had entered the interrogation room at sometime between 2.15-2.20pm according to reports. Fritz in his 1964 WCH testimony claimed Oswald volunteered the Beckley address, he also claimed in that same testimony that some detective passed the Beckley address to him.

As Greg has written the solution to this contradiction may be as simple as Fritz having forgotten how he had actually attained the address. I'm asking myself why was there any need to fabricate where Oswald had resided if he really had not lived at Nth. Beckley?

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 7:24 am
Glad I could remember whats been on my mind recently (ever since hearing Bart on Long Gunman Podcast w/Rob Clark) but I think Hosty's report mentions (seemingly without question) that LHO resided at Beckley as well. Am I to assume this is what Lee said during interrogation? What do you guys think of that bit?
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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 8:10 am
Mick Purdy wrote:We know Fritz or at least that's who we are told sent detectives to Nth Beckley at 2.40pm, arrived close to 3.00pm. Fritz had entered the interrogation room at sometime between 2.15-2.20pm according to reports. Fritz in his 1964 WCH testimony claimed Oswald volunteered the Beckley address, he also claimed in that same testimony that some detective passed the Beckley address to him.

As Greg has written the solution to this contradiction may be as simple as Fritz having forgotten how he had actually attained the address. I'm asking myself why was there any need to fabricate where Oswald had resided if he really had not lived at Nth. Beckley?
The case could be made that they needed him living in that area because they needed him to be able to pick up the Tippit murder weapon. To that extent, if Oswald had more or less moved to Irving that final week as I think he did, they still fabricated him living there. 

The person dropped off several blocks away by Whaley was, by Whaley's own statements, a drunk. 

As for Roberts seeing Oswald enter and grab a coat in a hurry... it reeks to me of being a similar situation to Mrs. Reid who almost certainly saw Oswald on his way back down from the second floor with a coke PRIOR to the assassination - not after - but was convinced to move the timeframe.

In this case, I think Roberts last saw Oswald on the 15th - as indicated on that OH Lee record of weekly payment that Gladys Johnson handed over and requested by erased.

As Johnson explained -- she thought she herself had last seen Oswald on Wednesday the 13th while Roberts last saw him on Friday the 15th. Her claim that those dates were due to faulty memory and it should have been the 20th and 22nd respectively, just does not ring true.

Which is why, in the opening post, I have Oswald dashing in on Friday the 15th after viewing an apartment for rent with Ruth. He rushes in to grab some belongings, possibly carrying them out wrapped in his jacket.

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 8:18 am
Hi BC_II,

there are those here who are much more qualified on the Nth. Beckley address than I am to answer your questions. 
Either way whichever version we accept with regards to how Fritz or whoever attained the Beckley address, we know the detectives got out there at around 3.00pm. 

That's a fact. 

We do know that there was confusion over Oswald's name at the rooming house, and that Decker probably added to that confusion by telling his men that they were looking out for a Harvey Lee Oswald. (And so the two Oswald theory was born  Cool ).
I've recently been researching another area of the case which made me take a closer look at the Beckley address and Oswald having lived there. I've changed my mind and now believe he resided there. I am certainly acutely aware of others here believing that he did not. And they make a very strong case for that theory.

Hosty WCH testimony:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hosty.htm


Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.



I don't believe Hosty has recalled this correctly. His interview with Oswald started at 3.15pm. Detectives were already at the Beckley address at that time. He more likely was given this information from Fritz. It's important to remember that Detective Potts had phoned through to Fritz once he had arrived at Beckley and conveyed to Fritz that the rooming house register book only had an O H Lee written in it.

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 8:26 am
BC_II wrote:Glad I could remember whats been on my mind recently (ever since hearing Bart on Long Gunman Podcast w/Rob Clark) but I think Hosty's report mentions (seemingly without question) that LHO resided at Beckley as well. Am I to assume this is what Lee said during interrogation? What do you guys think of that bit?
I think it says something that they have him denying living on Neely, but not on Beckley. 

Have always maintained that they only changed what when they absolutely had to. To radically change most of what he said would be foolhardy and bound to backfire on them.

I think the sequence might be something like Lee giving that address to one of the cops prior to the first official interrogation and Lee confirming it to Fritz when asked. 

This is the only rational explanation for teams being sent to both place almost simultaneously. 

Fritz testimony:

Mr. BALL. Who did you send to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik.
Mr. BALL. After you had done that what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I sent some officers---you mean right at that time? I also sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this question.

then this, which indicates "right at that time" actually means very shortly thereafter.

Mr. BALL. You didn't have it at that time, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address.
Mr. BALL. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you got there.
Mr. FRITZ. When I got there?
Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 10:46 am
No love lost between Gladys and Earlene.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/johnso_g.htm

Mr. BALL. Miss Earlene Roberts was your housekeeper at this time?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, she was.
Mr. BALL. How long have you known her?
Mrs. JOHNSON. I have known Mrs. Roberts, oh, I guess it was 6 years, something like that, 6 years.
Mr. BALL. Where did you first meet her?
Mrs. JOHNSON. I hired her as a housekeeper.
Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Has she been working for you for that period of time?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I would hire her back.
Mr. BALL. there some reason why you let her go?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.

298



Mr. BALL. What are they?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did.
Mr. BALL. She was working for you in October and November while Oswald was a renter with you?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, she was. This Saturday night will be 3 weeks she left.
Mr. BALL. She quit 3 weeks ago?


Mr. BALL. What did she do, move out?
Mrs. JOHNSON. After midnight, after everyone was in bed.
Mr. BALL. She didn't tell you she was going?
Mrs. JOHNSON. She didn't tell me she was going.
Mr. BALL. You haven't see her since?
Mrs. JOHNSON. I haven't seen her since.
Mr. BALL. Did a letter come to your house to Earlene Roberts from the Commission?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with it?
Mrs. JOHNSON. I held it until the last minute and returned it to you.
Mr. BALL. Your letter and your husband's letter came to the house?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You called Mrs. Cheek?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes I did.
Mr. BALL. To find out where Earlene was?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did she tell you?
Mrs. JOHNSON. She told me she had called her and told her she had left my house and she said. "I just proceeded to tell her what I thought about it because you are so good and so nice to her. She should never have quit you like

299


that." She said. "You know how she is, she hasn't called back. She might swell up and pout and it will be months before she calls me again."


And this from Earlene Robert's WC testimony:


Mr. BALL. Now, you know Mrs. Johnson, don't you?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I knew her very muchly so.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work for her?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, this last time I was there around 13 months--that was the third time I had went back.
Mr. BALL. When did you start working for her?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I started working for her in 1949 the first time.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL And you worked for her three times altogether?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I got sick the first time---I'm a diabetic and wasn't able to do the work and one day she called me again and wanted to know if I would do it and I went back and stayed again and I went in a coma and had to leave, and the reason why I left this time, she cut me down so low and the work was too heavy--I wasn't able to do the work.
Mr. BALL. You mean she cut you down on your money?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes; and I can't pay my doctor bill and buy my medicine at that price.
Mr. BALL. You mean, she didn't pay you enough--that's the reason you quit?
Mrs. ROBERTS. That's the reason why I quit--the work was too heavy and I wasn't able to do it and not enough pay.

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Wed 27 Nov 2019, 11:17 am
Gladys Johnson no less than 4 times tells Ball she is telling the truth in her WC testimony as she is about to finish her session.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/johnso_g.htm

Mrs. JOHNSON. I put it just as straight as I could because we did know such a little about this man but you know I have rented rooms a long time and find people, around boys, especially, about this age, some of them are shy. They don't prefer a lot of yakking and you will get to where, actually, you appreciate a person that goes in his room and takes care of his own business rather than sit around and quiz and ask personal questions and wants to change from one television program to another. You get tired of that.
Mr. BALL. Are you satisfied to waive your signature, Mrs. Johnson?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Why, yes.
Mr. BALL. And leave it just as you said it?
Mrs. JOHNSON. I have said the truth, nothing but the truth.
Mr. BALL. Then, you won't have to sign it. We will send it on to the Commission this way.
Mrs. JOHNSON. I have told you the truth.

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Thu 28 Nov 2019, 9:12 am
Humble thanks Greg and Mick for the responses.
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