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Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 2:18 am

As of November 1963, Abt's "short and simple" unsuccessful defense of Lightfoot had not yet been overturned, so if going to trial was a possibility (i.e. the Ruby "solution" didn't work out for some reason) perhaps hooking Oswald up with an attorney who, at that point, had already struck out defending somebody who had been accused of being part of a non-approved group was the way to go for the Thin Blue Line crowd? Just tell Oswald they got this big city slicker guy who's hot shit and for him to not worry about any other lawyers. Everything's OK. Oswald buys it, then they drag their feet (phone calls don't get through), Sunday rolls around *BOOM!* Well damn the good bad luck. Oh well, I guess the dirty commie bastard won't be needing a lawyer now.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 4:27 am

...noddin in agreement as Im reading it.

another protestations by Lee "They're taking me in because I lived in the Soviet Union." might fit in here. Usually its more popular cousin "Im just a patsy" follows to much greater appeal. Yet the former shows, as he is being taken in, that somehow he already is being called/labeled/asked about being a commie or past addresses
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 4:42 am

Stan you read my mind.
Somehow the bottom half of my reply did not upload... I asked if the slip of paper would of been from Chuck and how would he know or get the unpublished digits.
Has the slip been posted here?

As Chuck would be my choice too for knowing case law.
its also important that Abt struck out,
and Lightfoot had to get ACLU to bat cleanup.
Who other than Curry's friend Chuck would be allowed to give notes to prisoners?
perhaps Grover Proctor has provided a solution to it, but I have a doubt.
Being from an operator, literally, I do not see how Lee would be given the digits by the operator to write down. Operator would place a call to the unpub, and if Abt answered and agreed to speak they would be connected.

and if I lost Lightfoot I'd be unpublished too.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 9:24 am

Excellent! Agree with you both. As at Nov 22, 1963, Abt was an abject failure at defending lone commies in the only Smith Act case he tried.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 9:26 am

We might note here too that Lee seems blissfully unaware of that fact. That would not be the case if had learned of the case (and Abt) himself. No. He only knows what Webster has told him.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 9:38 am

I don't have the background or depth of knowledge you guys have on this, but as I read from a 30,000 ft. level, the game plan, based on the success of the government case against Lightfoot at the time, might have been:
 
1) The Dallas Thin Blue Liners and their accomplices tell the world that Oswald is a commie, so by this very fact, he's guilty of everything they want to throw at him. And they got the evidence to prove it too, and if they don't, no worries, they'll manufacture it. The fucking case is cinched now! That's all the public needs to know. Believe it—or fear.
 
2) Oswald wants legal representation, so they dupe him into believing they got the perfect guy for him—none of these run-of-the-mill public lawyers, no sir. They give him the name of John J. Abt, a colossus from New York. Hell, if I was 24 in his situation, I probably would have gone for it too.  It's really a stall tactic to keep lawyers away from him as he tries to connect with Abt, because for some reason, dammit, they can't connect with the distinguished attorney who blew the Lightfoot case. This buys them time to set up the Ruby thing. And even if they fuck that up, they got this loser Abt representing Oswald. As Randall Adams who was only three days away from being executed would have attested, the deck was stacked against Oswald. But Ruby fixed everything, bless his heart. Saved the taxpayers a long, messy trial. 

To Ed's comment about the operator giving Oswald the numbers, I recall right up until the Ma Bell system was broken up in 1982, you could call the operator and get a long distance number easily and even have her dial it for you. You paid the necessary charges of course, either applied to your phone bill, or if you were calling from a phone booth (something I did a lot when I was in the Navy in the 1970s), you would just enter the correct amount of change in the phone to proceed. The point is I think Ed is correct in if Oswald was trying to reach Abt and he didn't have the number, the operator would have helped him get it and connect him. Even if he had the number, he could have gotten operator help if he asked.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 10:09 am

That's about it, Stan. This was thinking on the fly after he survived his arrest.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Jake Sykes on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 12:24 pm

Also consider that Oswald may have read this New York lawyer somehow sent from out of the blue as a life line flowing from his handlers and leaped at it.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:33 pm

The idea of a hiring a lawyer is to have an intermediate handle the legal processes. Oswald was deliberately contained and isolated. His access to representation was thwarted by the DPD.
Asking for Abt buys time but Oswald was already on borrowed time. Ruby came to collect.
They had nothing on him other than the bullshit they ran with. That bullshit became official in 1964. 10 months after Oswald was shot. It took them almost a year to cinch the case. They buried Oswald that day with 26 volumes of dirt piled on top of him.
Oswald may have had a good alibi but he wasn't going to be around to use it. I think he may have felt he could save his hide but that never happened.
What annoys me most about the PM naysayers who also believe Oswald was framed is their reluctance to admit that Oswald had a good alibi. He was out front with Shelley.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 6:29 pm

Paul Francisco Paso wrote:What annoys me most about the PM naysayers who also believe Oswald was framed is their reluctance to admit that Oswald had a good alibi. He was out front with Shelley.

Oswald never said anything to the contrary, did he. So that blows the piss poor "He did it for the notoriety" argument out the window because when asked, he said he didn't kill anybody.
 
Jesse Curry admitted in 1969 that "we don't have any proof he fired the rifle. No one has been able to positively put him in that building with a gun in his hand."
 
ALL of the first day evidence places him down in front, which supports his alibi. Period.
 
Anybody with a brain can see that the Warren Commission Report is a whitewashed piece of shit. Anybody with a functioning brain finds the elimination of Oswald, at best, highly suspicious.
 
The naysayers remind me of this old Saturday Night Live skit, "Ask Big Daddy," where Ugandan citizens call in and ask Idi Amin what happened to certain family members or people they know who have disappeared. In each case, Idi Amin (Garrett Morris) says they died in an unfortunate vehicle crash. The citizen callers accept his explanations with gratitude and thanks, and tell him he's doing a great job.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/ask-big-daddy/3004320?snl=1
 
The naysayers are either cognitively impaired or they are on someone's payroll to keep the Disinformation Meter up at a high level. Or they sniff paint.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 7:18 pm

Never rule out the paint sniffs.

Sorry if Greg or anyone had posted about the founder of the ACLU and founding member of the DCLU
Brannin.

There may be something you might not have connected...

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fbrbn


During a three-month trip to Mexico in 1922 Brannin began what became a long-time association with the Federated Press, a labor news service. In the San Francisco area he worked for a while as assistant editor of Labor Unity. In 1925 the Brannins toured Europe and the Soviet Union, making contact with radicals wherever they went. Afterwards the couple returned once more to Seattle, where Brannin became director of Seattle Labor College. In 1933 they moved with their adopted son, Robert, to Dallas. There they continued for the next several decades to involve themselves on a grass-roots level with causes and politics. They joined the Socialist party, and in 1936 Brannin was the party's unsuccessful nominee for governor. He became state secretary of the party and was involved especially in efforts to organize labor. In 1938 he resigned this post; thereafter the Brannins aligned themselves with the liberal side of the Democratic party in Texas.

The Brannins joined the First Unitarian Church in Dallas in 1947. During the 1950s and 1960s their attention turned more and more to the civil rights movement. Brannin became a member of the executive committee of the local National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The couple participated in efforts in Dallas to desegregate various facilities, often joining picket lines when they were in their seventies.
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Fennell

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 8:47 pm

Fennell,

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 8:59 pm

arrest hinges on Fennell disclosing his name.
sound familiar... anyone... anyone?

Besig of ACLU argues this.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 9:42 pm





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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 10:29 pm

Nice work Bart,


Side Notes:

So would lee let the FPCC lawyer represent him??? fuck no.
is that the same though for ACLU?
"Oswald hated the ACLU just as he hated the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. " COUP DE TAT IN AMERICA


Attorney Ed Buck told a remarkable story about his run-in with "a tall slender man"about 6'2", 160 pounds" at Luby's Cafeteria, and how the unknown man mentioned his friendship with Lee Oswald. The man also told Buck that he used to work with books before he went to work at Bell Helicopter.

The FBI Albequerque office concluded that the unknown man could only be Michael Paine. [xi] Paine was interviewed and agreed that it was probably him. Robert Gemberling, a prominent FBI investigator of Oswald, omitted from his reports Buck's perfect physical description of Paine. [xii]

Michael is described as looking like Oswald in 1963 -- Paine had a similar slender frame as Oswald, but quite a bit taller, 35 years old, standing 6'2 and weighing 160


Abe Fortas' life can be divided into five chapters: youth, Yale, the bureaucracy, private law practice, the Court. At Yale he met William O. Douglas and has followed him in some fashion ever since. After graduating from law school Fortas taught at Yale under Douglas, with whom he also worked in the Securities and Exchange Commission in Washington; these academic and bureaucratic activities overlapped. Prior to working part time with the SEC, young Fortas, while still teaching at Yale was, in 1933-1934, Assistant Chief of the Legal Division of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration (AAA). Alger Hiss, the convicted Communist, was a lawyer with the AAA in 1934. Indeed, Hiss was "an Assistant General Counsel", as he proudly told the House Committee when Whittaker Chambers first called the turn on him in 1948. Assistant General Counsel sounds pretty good. Lee Pressman, another convicted Communist was one too, at the same time, in the same agency--AAA. Abe Fortas at this time was AAA's Assistant Chief of the Legal Di-vision. These are brilliant men. They wouldn't be likely to miss each other at that level in that agency. It's interesting the way Chambers describes the subterranean political atmosphere of those days. In Witness he writes:

I can imagine no better way to convey the secret power of the Communist Party in the domestic policies of the United States Government from 1933 to 1943, and later, than to list the mem
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 10:53 pm

members of the leading committee of the Ware Group [Chambers has previously gone into the workings of this "under-ground section of the American Communist Party", led by the late Harold Ware] and the posts that mark their progress through the Federal Government.

The leading committee of the Ware Group included:

Nathan Witt

August 1933 through February 1934--attorney on the staff of the AAA.


Lee Pressman

1933--Assistant General Counsel of the AAA.


John J. Abt

1933--Attorney for the AAA.


Charles Kramer alias "Krivitsky"

1933--On the staff of the AAA.

(pp. 343-344.)

Every one of them was a Communist. Chambers omits Hiss from the list. Hiss, like the others, was, in 1933-1934, a member of both the Ware Group of underground Communists and of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. But his transfer to the staff on the Nye Committee of the Senate, investigating munitions-makers, was in prospect, and Chambers says the Party thought it prudent to separate Hiss from the group. But here in 1933-34, at the outset of the New Deal, are five AAA lawyers: Hiss, Pressman, Witt, Abt, and Kramer, all known to be Communists, and the Assistant Chief of the AAA Legal Division is Abe Fortas, who is not known to be a Communist. It is no wonder the justice is scrupulous in avoiding imputations of guilt by association! John Abt is the one Lee Harvey Oswald said he wanted for his lawyer. One wonders what chance Oswald had of retaining him, though it might have been a problem for Abt to turn him down. The problem never came to a head. Jack Ruby saw to that. The reason Oswald wanted Abt is brought out by William Manchester in theopus, p. 247: [H: Don't you find involvement with such as the "Agricultural Adjustment Administration" a bit interesting--what does Agriculture have to do with anything attached to this mess? Perhaps it is the same as SENDING ARMS TO IRAQ, ETC., THROUGH THE AGRICULTURAL DEPARTMENT AND CLIFFORD'S BCCI? MY, my.]

....when the Dallas Bar Association's president drove to the station, Oswald declined his assistance, declaring a preference for John Abt, a New York lawyer celebrated for his defenses of political prisoners.

The parallelism of the above with the words of the IJA preamble is striking.

In 1937, Fortas left Yale and went to Washington to work full-time for the Securities and Exchange Commission. From 1934 to 1937 Fortas had worked
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 11:04 pm

From 1934 to 1937 Fortas had worked part-time for the SEC. In 1936, John Abt worked for the SEC--Special Counsel in the case against Electric Bond and Share. It is a small world. Fortas moved on up to the bureaucracy. From SEC he went to the Public Works Administration and from there to the Department of the Interior. In 1942, when he was thirty-two, Abe Fortas was made Under Secretary of the Interior. Old Ickes (Harold the curmudgeon) liked him. So did Franklin D. Roosevelt. Ickes wrote in his diary:
The President spoke in high terms of Abe Fortas' qualities and said that he was thinking of taking him away from me and making him a member of the SEC. I told him Fortas was very important to me.
So that is how Fortas got to be Under Secretary. Nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with being in demand in two agencies and getting a promotion.
It was about this time that Abe Fortas and Lyndon Johnson became acquainted. Johnson first went to Congress by special election in 1937, the same year Fortas moved to Washington from New Haven. The young Schemers hit it off together. They palled around, too, with Eliot Janeway and an older lawyer, Edwin Weisl, who was later to become a bitter enemy of Joseph Kennedy. My authority for this is Rowland Evans and Robert Novak. (Lyndon B. Johnson: The Exercise of Power, pp. 8-9, 281.)
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:51 am

This newspaper is the only paper that published this. And they have to be commended for it, one bunch of peeps that did their actual job.
Percy Foreman had a few vital things to say. This was found by me and Ed independently, a significant find nonetheless 

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 7:01 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Never rule out the paint sniffs.

Sorry if Greg or anyone had posted about the founder of the ACLU and founding member of the DCLU
Brannin.

There may be something you might not have connected...

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fbrbn


During a three-month trip to Mexico in 1922 Brannin began what became a long-time association with the Federated Press, a labor news service. In the San Francisco area he worked for a while as assistant editor of Labor Unity. In 1925 the Brannins toured Europe and the Soviet Union, making contact with radicals wherever they went. Afterwards the couple returned once more to Seattle, where Brannin became director of Seattle Labor College. In 1933 they moved with their adopted son, Robert, to Dallas. There they continued for the next several decades to involve themselves on a grass-roots level with causes and politics. They joined the Socialist party, and in 1936 Brannin was the party's unsuccessful nominee for governor. He became state secretary of the party and was involved especially in efforts to organize labor. In 1938 he resigned this post; thereafter the Brannins aligned themselves with the liberal side of the Democratic party in Texas.

The Brannins joined the First Unitarian Church in Dallas in 1947. During the 1950s and 1960s their attention turned more and more to the civil rights movement. Brannin became a member of the executive committee of the local National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. The couple participated in efforts in Dallas to desegregate various facilities, often joining picket lines when they were in their seventies.


According to an old Ed Forum thread, Brannin at best was a co-founder of DCLU. He was the secretary.  Seems nearly everyone associated with it was in the Unitarian Church.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 7:42 am


_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 8:01 am

Ed Ledoux wrote:From 1934 to 1937 Fortas had worked part-time for the SEC. In 1936, John Abt worked for the SEC--Special Counsel in the case against Electric Bond and Share. It is a small world. 

Not sure if this is what you're alluding to but Electric Bond and Share was Edwin Ekdahl's employer. Definitely a small world.

Ekdahl hires Korth who would ultimately have power over Oswald's discharge status.

Ekdahl employed by Electric Bond and Share who are involved in a court case against the SEC with the latter represented by John Abt who would be suggested as a suitable attorney for Oswald.


Last edited by greg parker on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:32 am

Foreman was smart man.
He was not pro bono, but a fee Lee could afford... money would flow in to the Oswald defense from donations guaranteed.
Oswald would be a famous case without a doubt.

Abe Fortas and the EB&S case, Abt, Ekdahl, etc are coincidences of course. 
Just that the odds are Las Vegas worthy.

Leopold and Loeb schooled with Abt in Chicago, Abt testifies in their defense. 
There are a few other details and historical occurrences but
I believe Greg has covered the rest.
Cheers, Ed
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:46 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Foreman was smart man.
He was not pro bono, but a fee Lee could afford... money would flow in to the Oswald defense from donations guaranteed.
Oswald would be a famous case without a doubt.

Abe Fortas and the EB&S case, Abt, Ekdahl, etc are coincidences of course. 
Just that the odds are Las Vegas worthy.

Leopold and Loeb schooled with Abt in Chicago, Abt testifies in their defense. 
There are a few other details and historical occurrences but
I believe Greg has covered the rest.
Cheers, Ed
I'd agree for sure that these are genuine coincidences.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:16 am

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:38 am

Bio and articles have Brannin as Charter Member or founding member, all are distinctions of privilege in an organization.

. Brannin continued to speak for liberal causes before local government bodies, to work with the local chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (the founder of which, Roger Baldwin, was an old friend)
While he wasn't Thee founder he had his ear.


What would be important is did they all discuss or talk about thr DCLU contingent and the midnight press conference where Lee said he wanted counsel to come forward, as Lee was not allowed a phone and phone book till Saturday afternoon. Of couse too late to reach a lawyer.
usually if you are hauled in on Friday or Saturday you will remain in jail till a lawyer on Monday can get before a magistrate. 
Capital offense precluded the bond portion of the "arraignment" which saved Lee that phone call, 
still Lee needed to have counsel present to call for a hearing ... so the ACLU went home, did not ask to be at the so called "1:35 arraignment" the one the boys huddled up after the press conference to decide to have it... rubbish! They decided in that huddle to go home and wait for indictment to arraign, I think the DPD was pawning that off onto the Sheriff's office, to take Lee into court. 
Bart has proven the 1:35 arraignment never happened.
Johnston and Hosty prove it.


Myth eviscerated.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

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