Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

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Professor Charles ("Chuck") Webster
Very little can be gleaned from the Warren Commission volumes about Charles Webster except that he had been at police head-quarters most of the day following the assassination; that he was a law professor at the Southern Methodist University (SMU); that he gave assurances to the DCLU delegation about Oswald's civil rights; that he had taken this delegation to Captain King for further assurances; that he may himself have been involved with the DCLU; and that he very likely attended a meeting with various officials regarding the upcoming arraignment. However, there is one document of no little interest in the HSCA subject files. It is a FBI memo regarding the American GI Forum and is dated June 20, 1960. This indicates that Bill Lowery had attended a meeting of a committee which had formed to support Webtser's run for Congress. The committee members were mainly CPUSA members or past members.[6] Lowery had been a founding member of the Dallas branch of the American GI Forum along with TSBD employee, Joe Molina. He had also been an FBI informant/infiltration agent since 1945. Another of those founding members was Felix Bartello (also an informant). Bartello was later to become a member of a Minutemen splinter group which had formed in support of Edwin Walker's efforts at Oxford. One of the other members, Ashland Burchwell, had been caught en-route to Mississippi with a car load of weapons.

In 1963, Lowery testified against a suspected communist named John Stafford before the Subversive Activities Control Board (SACB) in Washington. Stafford is also mentioned in the above document. The case drew headlines when RFK asked Texas state authorities to refrain from taking action on Stafford until the Feds were through with him. Further controversy arose when Lowery's status as informant was blown when, at the hearings, he admitted he had infiltrated the GI Forum and other reputable groups for the FBI. The FBI predictably denied he was acting for anyone other than the CPUSA - a lie exposed through the release of files.

As a sidebar, it may well be the Stafford case that gave Edwin Walker the idea to allege RFK had intervened in having Oswald released from police custody after being arrested for the Apr 10 so-called assassination attempt. Prof. Webster seems to have had a very cozy relationship with the Dallas DPD for someone of so pink a hue.

Grier & Louise Raggio timeline
1938: Louise Ballerstedt joins the American Friends Service Committee and spends that summer working in Galena, Illinois for the Society of Friends

1939: Louise graduates from the University of Texas and is awarded a Rockefeller Foundation grant for a one-year internship at the White House. Here, she meets the likes of Eleanor Roosevelt, befriends LBJ and dates John Connally. While in Washington, she also works for the National Youth Administration (NYA)

1940: Louise returns to Austin still with the NYA, working under Jake Pickle.[7] April 19, 1941: Grier Raggio and Louise Ballerstedt marry after a short courtship. Grier, a lawyer, is working for the Department of Agriculture investigating misuse of food stamps for purchase of alcohol and other illegal substances

December 7, 1941: Pearl Harbor is attacked by the Japanese resulting in the US entering WWII and Grier is drafted

March, 1942: Grier is sent to Pacific Theater after initially being sent to New Orleans to attend Officer's Training School for Intelligence where he is rejected on security grounds. He serves with the 386th Air Service Group. During the course of the war he would send letters home highly critical of the US army

August 6, 1942: First son Grier, Jr is born

September, 1945: Grier returns from the war and works for the Veteran's Administration Board

1946: Second son Tom is born

1947: At the insistence of Grier, Louise enrols in Southern Methodist University law School

1947: Third son Kenneth is born. Louise drops out of law school

1948: Grier is relieved of duties while answering 8 charges of "Un-American activities" including; being a member of the Communist Party; a member of the American Spanish Aid Committee; a member of the American Civil Rights Union; that he had advocated and praised the Russian system of government to co-workers and; that on another occasion had advocated the overthrow of the government by force. He and Louise travel to Washington where Grier appears before the Veterans Administrations Loyalty Board. He denies all charges except one - telling a fellow worker that “there is no difference between Stalin forcing Communism on the countries of Europe and the US forcing democracy on them”. This statement he asserts, had been taken out of context. He is cleared by the board and returns to work. Throughout this period and perhaps beyond, the Raggio's claim their phone is tapped and that they are under constant surveillance

1949: Louise and Grier join the Unitarian Church

1950: Louise returns to law school

1952: Louise graduates and does volunteer work for the League of Women Voters and the Women’s Alliance of the Unitarian Church while practicing law part-time from home. Meanwhile, Grier is again the focus of government interest in his activities

1953: Louise obtains a job as an assistant DA under Henry Wade through the help of friend and mentor, Judge Sarah T Hughes. Judge Hughes would, after the assassination of JFK, administer the oath of office to LBJ

March 1, 1954: Grier is guest speaker at a meeting of the Peace and World Relations Group of the Temple Emanu-El Sisterhood. His subject is, "Are We in Danger of Losing Our Civil Rights and Liberties?"

1955: Grier Raggio opens a law office in the Rio Grande Building in Dallas [8]

April, 1956: Louise quits DA's office to join her husband's law practice. Firm is now known as Raggio & Raggio and specializes in divorce cases

1957: Louise's former employer, Jake Pickle, becomes director of the Texas State Democratic Executive Committee. Holds that position until 1960

1960: Louise serves on the newly organized Family Law Section of the State Bar

1961: Jake Pickle becomes a member of the Texas Employment Commission

1961: Sarah Hughes becomes a Federal District Judge

January 27, 1963: Grier debates Wyatt W Lipscomb, city attorney in Garland for the Soroptimist Club of Dallas at the Baker Hotel. Subject of debate is "Does Membership in the United Nations Serve the Best interests of the United States?" Louise is a club member

November 13, 1963: Ruth Paine files a petition for divorce stating she separated from Michael on September 1, 1962, and that for 6 months prior to
separation, she had suffered a course of "unkind, cruel harsh and tyrannical treatment and conduct" at the hands of her husband. Ruth's attorney in this filing was Louise Raggio.[9] Recall that the Paine's and Raggio's attend the same church

November 22, 1963 Morning: Grier and Louise are at the Trade Mart for the luncheon [10]

November 22, 1963 Evening: Grier gets a call either from an ACLU member in Austin (according Greg Olds) or from Washington (according to Louise) concerning either finding out if Oswald was being denied counsel (according to Olds) or asking that he witness Oswald's arraignment (according to Louise). Grier phones Olds about this. In turn, Olds phones police, then calls Grier back. Grier suggests they go down and check out the situation

November 22, 1963, 11:15 PM: Olds, Raggio and 2 other DCLU members meet across from City Hall at Plaza Hotel, then try to talk to Earl Cabell without success before speaking with Prof. Charles Webster outside the office of Captain Fritz

November 22, 1963, 11:40 PM: Webster takes delegation to Captain King

November 22, 1963, 11:50 PM: According to Wade, Grier Raggio and Charles Webster are both at a meeting just prior to the midnight press conference regarding the arraignment in the JFK case. David Johnston however, only named himself, Curry, Fritz, Wade and 2 or 3 assistant DAs as being present

Midnight: According to Olds, the others in the delegation go home at the time he goes down to watch the press conference [11]

1970: Grier and Louise's eldest son, Grier, Jr starts up a journal called "The New Democrat" which he edits with Stephen Schlesinger, son of JFK aide and historian, Arthur

October 26, 1970: Conservative journalist, John Chamberlain writes widely published article, "Where else Can Democrats Go?" predicts that Raggio (whom Chamberlain describes as a Mayor John Lindsay functionary) and Schlesinger are "sewing the dragon's teeth" through their support of McGovern which he states will lead to problems at the '72 convention unless the Left gets its way

1972: Gary Allen, a John Birch Society propagandist and author of "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" publishes "Richard Nixon: The Man Behind the Mask" which quotes from the Chamberlain article, suggesting that Nixon and some of the Left in the Democratic Party are "part of the same conspiracy".

According to Allen, the Left, with Raggio and chlesinger playing prominent roles, will split the party, ensuring an easy win for Nixon

guns & money
There are two other people named Raggio who turn up in the records. Any connection to Grier Raggio is unknown, and they are mentioned here only for the benefit of anyone who might have an interest in genealogy. The first is David L Raggio originally of Natchitoches, Louisiana. He was a WWII veteran who served with the 879th Airborne Engineers.

Raggio, in 1963 and by now a geologist, entered into a partnership with Richard Davis and Gus de la Barre. The business which resulted was known as the Guatemalan Lumber & Mineral Corp. In actuality however, it was a front for training Cuban exiles at camps in the area around Lake Pontchartrain.

The second is William Raggio. As Washoe County District Attorney and friend of Frank Sinatra, he was heavily involved in the investigation into the December 8, 1963 kidnapping of Sinatra's son, Frank Jr. In March, 1968, New Orleans played host to the National Convention of District Attorneys. An awards banquet was planned as part of the convention with Hubert Humphrey originally slated as guest speaker. When Humphrey withdrew after hearing how Garrison was criticizing LBJ over various aspects of the Shaw case, as well as the original investigation of the assassination, Garrison placed himself into the guest speaker role.

The organizing committee, fretting over what Garrison might say, requested a meeting with him. The meeting culminated in barbed exchanges between Garrison and Raggio - who had attempted to warn Garrison to leave out any mention of the assassination in his speech. Garrison reacted by cancelling the banquet and shipping all the catered food to an orphanage.

In 1970, Richard Nixon hatched plans to recapture a hostile senate for the Republicans at the Nov 3rd elections. To this end, he hand-picked 9 candidates. Among them was William Raggio. Raggio failed in his bid.

In 1972, he did win a seat in the Nevada state senate, and has held it ever since.


ENDNOTES
[1] Commission Exhibit 987 is a letter from Greg Olds to J Lee Rankin. It is on DCLU letterhead which lists all board members and other office holders within the organization.

[2] Also according to Louise Raggio, her husband had called Olds at the insistence of someone from the Washington Office - not Austin.

[3] Commission Document 87, p 549

[4] Treasure-Hunting in the National Archives, The Third Decade, vol 2, # 2 by Sylvia Meagher, January 1986. The document cited by Meagher in the article is found in Commission Document 5, p 400

[5] The 1:35 Arraignment and the Rewriting of History, The Third Decade, vol 3, # 4 by Timothy Cwiek, May, 1987

[6] NARA Record Number: 124-90010-10040

[7] Pickle bio: 1938; United States Navy, served three and a half years; area director, National Youth Administration, 1938-1941; radio business; public relations executive; director of Texas state Democratic Executive Committee, 1957-1960; member of Texas Employment Commission, 1961-1963). He had also been a political aide to LBJ and in Nov 1963 was the Democratic Nominee in the 10th District run-off with Republican Jim Dobbs. He was hated by the liberal faction of his own party who had got Kennedy over the line in Texas in 1960. In fact, one of those Kennedy supporters, Jack Ritter appeared on TV, Nov 21 urging those who had previously supported him to now support Dobbs, indicating that Pickle was not an acceptable candidate for the Democrats, and had been "less than forthright" during debates. Kennedy was due in Austin after the Dallas visit.

[8] The 112th MIG also had an office in the Rio Grande Building, as did the Immigration & Naturalization Service. The latter was listed in Oswald's address book

[9] Warren Commission Document 849, p33. As no further action was taken within 6 months of filing, the case was automatically dismissed

[10] November 22 - The Day Remembered by Morning News Staff, Dallas, p136

[11] Unless otherwise stated, background information on Louise and Grier Raggio has been sourced from the roster of the 386th Air Service Group; Louise Raggio's autobiography, Texas Tornado; Louise Raggio profile from the Texas State Bar; article published by the Texas Women Lawyers Association, "Louise B Raggio: Handing the Torch to Today's Generation" and; The Dallas Morning News archives

Bob Storey to Lee Rankin.

Bob Storey contacted H. Louis Nichols and, as stated in the doc on page 3, pursuant to many complaints from the North and East that "Oswald should be provided counsel".  That gives us a bit of info as to who got Nichols to show up at D.P.D. HQ. But the next sentence is proper gold. I first talked with Henry Wade and he said in substance, that "he was going to recommend to the Court that the President of the Dallas Bar Association and Dallas Criminal Bar Association be appointed as council for Oswald by the Court as and when he was indicted." Their indictment was expected on Monday morning.

Excuse me? Monday morning? Oswald was supposedly pulled out of his cell and indicted at about 01:30 on the 23rd. This is of course is another nail in the coffin to the official story.

Small world... Otto Mulinax was part of.....drumroll plz..........the GI Forum.
Check the last paragraph. 

Mullinax helped Molina with his severance from the TSBD

Powerful stuff Bart,

Mullinax gave Molina bad advice.
Seems Otto was playing Joe like a fiddle.
Molina did have a case, too bad the Usual Suspects steered him from filing one. Im sure there was no collusion between these folks.... aye aye aye

Cheers, Ed

Ed.Ledoux wrote:Powerful stuff Bart,

Mullinax gave Molina bad advice.
Seems Otto was playing Joe like a fiddle.
Molina did have a case, too bad the Usual Suspects steered him from filing one. Im sure there was no collusion between these folks.... aye aye aye

Cheers, Ed

Don't know about the labor laws as they stood in Tx then, but what you say would be the case now in a lot of places around the world. Maye he should have consulted Chuck Webster who specialized in Labor Law.

Oh wait, Chucky boy is also a highly suspicious character who had the  backing of FBI commies in his bid for election in 1960 and despite his association with "commies", was at the DPD all day on Nov 22 allegedly advising them on any potential federal law issues. That, and assuring the equally suspect DCLU posse that there was nothing to see here.

I have asked myself many times why the fervent patriots of the TSBD hired a subversive? Even if they hired him unwittingly, it would have come to light through the FBI who I have shown had a relationship to at least Caton, if not Truly and Shelley as well. 

The answer I keep coming back to is Byrd and his founding of CAP and CAP's entry into the spy games via the program first talking about in 1948 where at least one aspect involved businesses hiring CAP members to keep tabs on suspected subversives within the business as identified by the business.

IIRC, Truly had let some workers go shortly before hiring Oswald. Was one of those someone who was keeping tabs on Molina at work, just as Lowery had been outside of work? 

Lowery of course, outed himself around the same time as Frazier was starting at the company - Buell, the Trojan horse Oswald would ride in on. With Lowery now nullified, there was no one keeping on an eye on Joe now inside the TSBD or anywhere else.

Enter Oswald?

Bart,
There are 5 Documents at NARA pertaining to the Dallas Civil Liberties Union
1. AGENCY : HSCA
RECORD NUMBER : 180-10080-10007
RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 009445
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR : DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT
FROM : BIGGIE, W.S.
TO : GANNAWAY, W.P.
TITLE : DALLAS CHAPTER OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
DATE : 04/30/1964
PAGES : 1
DOCUMENT TYPE : LETTER
SUBJECTS : AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION; DALLAS, TX
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL
CURRENT STATUS : OPEN
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/24/1993
COMMENTS : Includes list of Dallas members. Box 173.

The one above I just got.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zR2k4Hku9rqgv-0ZelvlK4lGAiUNoiHL/view?usp=drivesdk
I want this doc

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.
Not sure whether this is online UNT.

It is not fully finished yet, but.......getting there. I am of the opinion that Webster was there to keep a psychological eye on Oswald while incarcerated and accused of the crimes of murdering Tippit and JFK.
The reason I say this as the year before he was doing this with Major General Edwin Walker.

Charles W Webster

Bill Alexander did not like Webster at all. Priceless document!!! By Manning Clements.
With thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

barto wrote:Bill Alexander did not like Webster at all. Priceless document!!! By Manning Clements.
With thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

Nice bit of mudslinging by Alexander.

Webster ran for political office in the 1959/60 elections. He was supported in that effort by Bill Lowery - the same FBI informant who was running Joe Molina and informing on the Texas branch of the ACLU.

So why is his relationship with Dallas police so cozy that he got to sit in on one or more interrogation as well as the arraignments?

He was involved with labor/employee arbitration at that time - and the president of the US Arbitration Board was Donald Straus who happened to own a holiday villa on Naushon Island owned by the Paine family.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11086&relPageId=3 

SMU LEGAL NEWS, OCTOBER 1959, page 3 wrote:A panel discussion on labor arbitration will follow this speech. Members of the panel include Harold G. Adams, regional manager of the American Arbitration Association; Professor Larson; Carl John Oles, labor relations administrator of Convair Aircraft; Jim Smith, staff representative of the United States Steel Workers of America, District 37 Lone Star, and Charles Webster, professor of law at SMU.  

Donald Straus was a prominent member of the family who administered the funds to build both the immigration apartments where the Rosenbergs lived, but also Youth House where Oswald spent 2 weeks being "assessed". (refer to Lee Harvey Oswald's Cold War for further info on that family)

In 1967, we find

SMU LEGAL CENTER NEWS, spring, 1967 wrote:Professor Charles Webster has been reappointed to the Texas Council on Administration of Justice. The IS-member Council, made up of judges, practicing attorneys, and professors, reviews budget requests of the Texas Youth Council and Department of Corrections and proposes new legislation in the area of the adult and juvenile correction laws.

Could he have been in a mental institution in 1964 and previously at unspecified times? I suppose it is possible... but it looks unlikely to me. 

I do believe he is the original source for giving Lee the name and number of John Abt and that it was meant to help smear Lee as a communist.

barto wrote:It is not fully finished yet, but.......getting there. I am of the opinion that Webster was there to keep a psychological eye on Oswald while incarcerated and accused of the crimes of murdering Tippit and JFK.
The reason I say this as the year before he was doing this with Major General Edwin Walker.

Charles W Webster

Sorry. Missed this until now. Yes, that could be the case. Certainly not there as an impartial observer, although officially I think, it was supposed to be to advise DPD on any federal law issues.

This, to me that is, is by far one of the most intriguing threads at this forum. More inbreeding than Deliverance.....

barto wrote:This, to me that is, is by far one of the most intriguing threads at this forum. More inbreeding than Deliverance.....

🤪🥰 best rap ever!

Almost everybody in this case seems to be connected to somebody else in the case. Almost like a clique.

barto wrote:

This is LND Wells Senior who died in Sep 1963. My bad.

Fred Bruner was a lawyer who is captured on the third floor corridor. 


_{From DMN}
https://obits.dallasnews.com/us/obituaries/dallasmorningnews/name/fred-bruner-obituary?id=24772088
_{For several decades, he was one of the top criminal lawyers in Dallas, representing the rich, the poor, and everyone in between. Fred made legal history as part of the team that argued Roe v. Wade before The Supreme Court of the United States of America. He inspired hundreds of young lawyers. He knew and represented Jack Ruby, the Dallas nightclub owner who shot Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated President John F. Kennedy.} 


Source UNT: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184904/m1/1/

It was Bob Storey who got into contact with Nichols and have him check to see whether Oswald was provided legal assistance.  It may be that Storey got a call from Nicholas Katzenbach (page 48) since he was most concerned as well. 

Nichols gets involved about 16 hours after Greg Olds and his three colleagues from the Dallas A.C.L.U. had made their way to the DPD already shortly before Oswald’s press conference.

In his talks with Oswald at about 5 PM Nichols asked if Oswald wanted him or the Dallas Bar Association to get him an attorney. Oswald said he would wait until he could see Abt, an A.C.L.U. attorney, or at least someone who believed in his innocence.

In his WC testimony H. Louis Nichols mentions that he was no criminal lawyer and he talked to a friend who was one and was told by him that the obligation was only to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as he understood it, since Mr. Oswald had not been indicted there was no legal obligation to appoint an attorney.  Yet he was already arraigned for Tippit and supposedly for the murder of J.F.K. as well.

He then speaks to Henry Wade over the phone and asks him whether or not either he or anybody in his office had been advised that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. Since this phone call happened on the 23^rd and Oswald had made quite a few public calls for legal representation on the 22^nd and early on the 23^rd we can deduct that Wade was spinning a tall tale….

Nichols knows a fair amount of people inside the DPD and he decides to call Captain Glen King and asks him the same questions he put forward to Henry Wade, and King pretty much answers in the same vein as Wade did: Oswald was not represented by anyone, he did not ask for anyone to represent him nor ask for the right for a phone call to call one. That is another strange thing to say, as Oswald was granted his phone call earlier on the 23^rd about 24 hours after his arrest.

From Jesse Curry's book (P.75) Retired Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry reveals his personal JFK assassination file  “By mid-evening I was concerned that every attempt be made to see that Oswald's civil rights were not being violated. I escorted Louis Nichols, president of the Dallas Bar Association, into the jail to confer with the prisoner. Oswald at that time spurned an offer by the Dallas Bar Association for legal assistance, but Mr. Nichols did discuss Oswald's right for legal counsel with him. Oswald indicated that he wanted Attorney John Abt of New York City to defend him. If that failed his second choice would have been a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. Oswald seemed well informed of his rights and had definite ideas about how he would seek legal counsel. Attorney Louis Nichols left completely satisfied that Oswald had not been denied council and that his civil rights were not being violated.”

In his Warren Commission testimony Jesse Curry says:

Mr. RANKIN - Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.
Mr. CURRY - Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.
Mr. RANKIN - Yes.
Mr. DULLES - I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN - Back on the record.
In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; he did.
Mr. RANKIN - What did he say about that?
Mr. CURRY - He said he didn't care to at this time.
Mr. RANKIN - What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?
Mr. CURRY - He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.
Mr. RANKIN - That is to Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN - What did Mr. Oswald say?
Mr. CURRY - He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."
Representative FORD. - Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?
Mr. CURRY - Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.
Mr. RANKIN - And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN - Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY - That is correct.

From Nichols’ W.C. testimony:

“...call from another friend of mine, and that I had made some inquiry, and at this time I did not know whether Oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that I was going to make some inquiry to find out about it. After talking to the second friend about it who called, I then called Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney, to see whether or not he knew whether or not Oswald was represented by a lawyer or not.

I did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because I had no way of knowing whether he was represented or not. I hadn't talked to anybody who was really informed, and I called Mr. Wade. He said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent Oswald. I asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office had been advised that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. I asked him too, as he was going up there, and I asked him if Oswald requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer would he tell him that the Dallas Bar Association would get a lawyer if he needed one.

By that time I had time to think about what I thought my obligation should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people might overlook the fact that Oswald had rights that needed to be protected at the same time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless of what the legal obligation was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar association, ought to look into the matter.

Mr. Wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and he would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was, and if Oswald wanted a lawyer--asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer appointed--he would tell him of my conversation. I then called Glen King, and a captain on the police force that I knew. I used to work for the city attorney's office, and still represent, the city credit union and have a brother on the police force, so, I have known many of these people for many years. I called Captain King and asked him whether or not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, and Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one representing him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a lawyer. He had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and or had not asked that a lawyer be furnished to him---and Captain King said, "If he does, I am certainly going to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying that we deprived him of the right to have a lawyer."

About that time Chief Curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and motioned me in, and I went in there and he introduced me to one of the FBI agents who was there, and I told him I was up there as president of the bar association looking for Captain King. I had talked to him earlier and I had come up: there to see whether or not Mr. Oswald had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted the Dallas Bar Association to do anything.

The chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see Oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to another part of the building, and he asked me where I wanted to talk to him. If I wanted to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be convenient with me, and I told him that any place would be all--I just wanted to visit with the man and see what his situation was with regard to him having a lawyer. So, we then went through a door on the third floor and got into the elevator and went up to the sixth floor, and the chief again asked me where I wanted to talk to him. I said, "Well, just any place."

By that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated by bars and a door. Beyond that door were three separate cells, and there was an officer seated outside one, and then we went through the first door and got to that point and Mr. Oswald was in the centre of the three cells, no one being in the other two, and there was an officer seated outside there. The chief had the officer open the door, and he introduced me to Oswald, and told him my name and said that I was the president of the Dallas Bar Association and had come up to see him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the chief stepped back and--I don't really know how far away. He was at least--he was far enough removed where I couldn't observe him or see him there in the cell. The officer stayed just right outside the door there. I reintroduced myself to Oswald and told him my name, and that I was president of the Dallas bar, and that I had come up to see him about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and suggested that he sit down.

So, he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other. Maybe 3 or 4 feet apart. When I got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when I came in and then he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other, much as you and I are seated here, only actually, a little bit closer, and I asked him if he had a lawyer, and he said, "Well, he really didn't know what it was all about, that he was--had been incarcerated, and kept incommunicado, and I said, "Well, I have come up to see whether or not you want a lawyer, because as I under-stand--" I am not exactly sure what I ,said there, or whether he said some-thing about not knowing what happened to President Kennedy, or I said that I understood that he was arrested for the shot that killed the President, and I don't remember who said what after that. This is a little bit vague. I had covered that point in detail, and I don't recall exactly, but in any event, our conversation was such that I informed him that I was there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he said--he asked me first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt, and I don't know if it is A-b-t, or A-p-t.

Mr. STERN. I believe it is A-b-t.

Mr. NICHOLS. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know him, and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me," and at some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the police, or talking to--must have been talking to either Captain King or the chief---I had been told that some effort had been made to get hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in Connecticut at his home, and maybe, and I have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. At least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him, but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that is the man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and he said, "Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that organization."

Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are members. Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I can't get either one of those, and if I can----"

Mr. STERN. That is either----

Mr. NICHOLS. "Either Mr. Abt or someone who is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and if I can find a lawyer here who believes in anything I believe in, and believes as I believe, and believes in my innocence"-then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and said, "as much as he can, I might let him represent me."

I said, "What I am interested in knowing is right now, do you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to try to get you a lawyer?"

He said, "No, not now."

He said, "You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of these other people to represent me, I might ask you to get somebody to represent me."

I said, "Well, now, all I want to do is to make it clear to you, and to me, whether or not you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do anything about getting a lawyer right now."

And he said, "No." "....As I left the chief asked me whether or not I wanted to make a statement to the press, and I said, "Well, I don't know whether I do or not. I don't know whether it is the thing to do or not." And he said, "Well, they are going to be right outside the door there, and if you want to say anything this would be an opportunity to do it. Incidentally, I am very glad you came up here. We don't want any question coming up about us refusing to let him have a lawyer. As far as I know, he has never asked for one. He has never asked to call one." Evidence presented earlier in this paper shows that this is utter rubbish.

Curry lasts for just over five minutes and then makes his exit. You can view this H Louis Nichols interview here.

The Dallas Morning News of Louis Nichols’ obituary makes a mention of a few interesting bits.
 
Esteemed law school deans from "back East" were calling to express concern that only a legal backwater would deny an attorney to a murder suspect, Mr. Nichols' friends told him.

Nichols described Oswald, who was dressed in a white T-shirt and slacks, as calm and rested. He had a bruise over one eye but appeared to be in good health.

He said that police were holding him "incommunicado" and that he did not know what had happened to the president, Mr. Nichols told the Warren Commission.

Oswald said he wanted a New York lawyer named John Abt or a lawyer associated with the American Civil Liberties Union to represent him. Oswald also wanted a lawyer "who believes as I believe, and believes in my innocence."

"What I am interested in is knowing right now, do you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to try to get you a lawyer?" Mr. Nichols asked Oswald.

"No, not right now," he replied. And this, knowing that he had appealed to Ruth Paine and his mom to contact Abt at about the same time, rings true. If only Nichols had appeared a few hours earlier……

Mr. Nichols, who was 47 at the time, left the jail cell confident that he had done his duty as bar association president.

And this video, by Jessica Smith, H. Louis Nichols remembers that day in this edited video segment of the interview.

In the Dallas Times Herald of Dec 16 1963 Nichols retells the story again with some additional bits on Oswald’s rights. Nichols saw Oswald on Saturday evening around 6 PM and not on Friday evening as the article states.

Mr. Nichols, who was 47 at the time, left the jail cell confident that he had done his duty as bar association president.

What a lot of shit. Why was everyone calling the head of a bar association that did not deal in criminal matters - especially when there was a separate bar association for criminal law? Where were those guys?

As I said in the Lifton thread, we only have Nicholls' word on what Oswald said to him.

I would also add that Storey etc may have contacted him, but according to Nicholls' testimony, it was a SMU professor who convinced him to go check on Oswald. Now who else could that be except Chuck Webster?

Mr. NICHOLS: ...Up to that time I had not been told by any of these people that Oswald had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether he had a lawyer. None of them knew for sure. I didn't--I then received a call from another lawyer who was a professor out at S.M.U. and he wanted to know whether or not the bar association was doing anything about getting a lawyer for Oswald. I told him what had transpired, what I had done, and I hadn't decided what should be done at this time, if anything by me, as president of the bar association.
He seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful if I would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not Oswald had any lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and hadn't been able to get one, and I told him that I had not decided what to do, so, I sat around and decided if it had to be done. It seemed like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the people I talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a lawyer that I decided I might as well go up and talk to him, so, I cleaned up and went on up to the city hall. That was probably 5:30 or so in the afternoon.

BUMP!