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Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by beowulf on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 5:15 am

The threat would be the implied threat that things will go much harder in court unless you play ball like your partner is...

Can't speak for Australian legal system but in the US, 90% of criminal convictions result from a plea bargained guilty plea. If cops couldn't use, every day, the implied threat that things will go much harder in court unless suspect play ball (and if police can lie about a dead person being alive they can certainly lie about an accomplice being cooperative), the criminal justice system would grind to a halt.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by beowulf on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 5:38 am

Greg, perhaps people may sort of discount all of the interesting facts you point out about the people around Oswald in Dallas because they already suspect LBJ and his Texas cronies.
If the LBJ set was involved, whether or not Johnson himself was involved in murder plot, it makes sense that the Dallas ambush only happened after (if reports are to believed) prior related plots that fall in Miami, Tampa and Chicago fell through.

Just as serial killers tend to be pretty decent to their neighbors, I doubt the Texans wanted Kennedy killed so close to home if they could have helped it.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 7:10 am

beowulf wrote:The threat would be the implied threat that things will go much harder in court unless you play ball like your partner is...

Can't speak for Australian legal system but in the US, 90% of criminal convictions result from a plea bargained guilty plea. If cops couldn't use, every day, the implied threat that things will go much harder in court unless suspect play ball (and if police can lie about a dead person being alive they can certainly lie about an accomplice being cooperative), the criminal justice system would grind to a halt.
Consideration should be given to greater external transparency of plea bargaining, even simply introducing a register to keep track of when these deals occur. In accordance with Charlie Bezzina’s discussion of the Mokbel plea bargain in Victoria, “these deals are an essential tool in saving court time and costs, but … closer scrutiny needs to be applied to these matters”. It would be a significant achievement to see informed and considered changes to plea bargaining across Australian criminal jurisdictions.
http://theconversation.com/plea-bargains-and-the-efficiencies-of-justice-8440
My key concern is hinted at in this story - that it can be misused and misapplied to, in some case, favor certain individuals, or in other cases, to scare someone into accepting a plea bargain rather than risk a maximum penalty, even though they are innocent (or at least cannot be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt). It's a Game Show version of justice... pick a door...

While ever untold and largely unaccounted for billions are ploughed into phony wars and intelligence agency programs, the cost saving imperative when it comes to justice, education and health services will never wash with me.

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Thu 03 Oct 2013, 7:16 am

beowulf wrote:Greg, perhaps people may sort of discount all of the interesting facts you point out about the people around Oswald in Dallas because they already suspect LBJ and his Texas cronies.
If the LBJ set was involved, whether or not Johnson himself was involved in murder plot, it makes sense that the Dallas ambush only happened after (if reports are to believed) prior related plots that fall in Miami, Tampa and Chicago fell through.

Just as serial killers tend to be pretty decent to their neighbors, I doubt the Texans wanted Kennedy killed so close to home if they could have helped it.
It's far more complex than "LBJ and/or his cronies did it". They certainly had nothing to do with the MC shenanigans for example.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 04 Oct 2013, 12:28 am

greg parker wrote:Is there no one (apart from Dan) who thinks it's at least mildly interesting that Ruth's lawyer was a friend of LBJ and had dated Connally? That this lawyer had been an assistant DA under Wade? That her husband was on the DCLU delegation to check on Oswald? That this delegation had connections to FBI counterintelligence efforts regarding local "communists"? That the husband himself was allegedly rejected for military intelligence work - based on an alleged subversive background? That  he complained about being harassed by (presumably) the FBI? That he set his divorce practice up in the very same building as the MIG 112?  
I do, Greg. And I must say, you deserve much Kudos for this crucial research. I'm just sorry I waited this long to tell you.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Fri 04 Oct 2013, 7:06 am

Thanks Hasan,

I honestly wasn't fishing for a compliment. I was just a bit puzzled by the seeming lack of any interest in these areas.

But then, when you see 10,000 replies to a thread about 2 pixels being a police cap in the bushes, I guess I shouldn't be at all surprised! Sleep

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 04 Oct 2013, 7:11 am

No worries, Greg. I know you weren't fishing for a compliment, but it was one well deserved.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 2:39 pm

Bump

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Thu 08 Dec 2016, 8:08 pm

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/White%20Assassination%20Clippings%20Folders/Chronology/Chron%20088.pdf

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Sat 28 Jan 2017, 9:50 pm

From Jesse Curry's book(1969(

By mid-evening I was concerned that every attempt be made to see that
Oswald's civil rights were not being violated. I escorted Louis Nichols,
president of the Dallas Bar Association, into the jail to confer with the
prisoner. Oswald at that time spurned an offer by the Dallas Bar
Association for legal assistance, but Mr. Nichols did discuss Oswald's right
for legal council with him. Oswald indicated that he wanted Attorney
John Abt of New York City to defend him. If that failed his second
choice would have been a member of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Oswald seemed well informed of his rights and had definite ideas about
how he would seek legal council. Attorney Louis Nichols left completely
satisfied that Oswald had not been denied council and that his civil rights
were not being violated.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Wed 01 Feb 2017, 6:26 am

Bart, this is more accurate:

By mid-evening Saturday I was concerned that every attempt be made to convince the media that Oswald's civil rights were not being violated. I escorted Louis Nichols, president of the Dallas Bar Association, into the jail to confer with the prisoner. even though the same was not done for Civil Liberties lawyers the previous night. Oswald at that time spurned an offer by the Dallas Bar Association for legal assistance. Not surprising really because what Oswald needed was the Crininal Bar Association - not the Civil Bar! But Mr. Nichols did discuss Oswald's right for legal council with him. Oswald indicated that he wanted Attorney John Abt of New York City to defend him. Abt had been recommended to Oswald by Prof. Chuck Webster sometime after Oswald shot his mouth off to the press that he wanted legal help, causing a mini panic among my men. It seemed only right that we offer the little commie the legal counsel for the communist party. If that failed his second choice would have been a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, but shucks, we told those dicks that there was "nothing to see here, boys" and they wandered off. Oswald seemed well informed of his rights and he never stopped demanding them, but we fixed that sure enough! Attorney Louis Nichols left completely satisfied that Oswald had not been denied counsel and that his civil rights were not being violated. Yes, that's right. I'm saying that a lawyer with zero criminal law or civil rights casework experience was who we let see Oswald to help convince the world Oswald was not being robbed of any rights. Nichols was a good ol' boy f'sure. Did a good job for us.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 9:15 am

ha ha

Meanwhile Fritz claims on the 23rd that an attorney from Chicago offered his services but that Oswald declined anyone besides Abt or the Dallas CLU
If I m not mistaken this telegram is nowhere to be found btw.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files%20Original/F%20Disk/Fritz%20Will%20Captain/Item%2004.pdf


Last edited by barto on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 9:34 am

barto wrote:ha ha

Meanwhile Fritz claims on the 23rd that an attorney from Chicago offered his services but that Oswald declined anyone besides Abt or the Dallas CLU

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files%20Original/F%20Disk/Fritz%20Will%20Captain/Item%2004.pdf
Oswald never declined the offer from Chicago. As it says in the document, the DPD simply never gave him the telegram because Oswald had previously expressed that he only want Abt. 

Great find, Barto! It again shows how determined they were to keep real lawyers (Nichols was a jumped up ambulance chaser) away from him.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by barto on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 11:15 am

Thx Greg

More on this
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files%20Original/F%20Disk/Fritz%20Will%20Captain/Item%2002.pdf

And Weisberg's long analysis on Fritz is spot on
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files%20Original/F%20Disk/Fritz%20Will%20Captain/Item%2008.pdf

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 12:03 pm

greg parker wrote:Bart, this is more accurate:

By mid-evening Saturday I was concerned that every attempt be made to convince the media that Oswald's civil rights were not being violated. I escorted Louis Nichols, president of the Dallas Bar Association, into the jail to confer with the prisoner. even though the same was not done for Civil Liberties lawyers the previous night. Oswald at that time spurned an offer by the Dallas Bar Association for legal assistance. Not surprising really because what Oswald needed was the Crininal Bar Association - not the Civil Bar! But Mr. Nichols did discuss Oswald's right for legal council with him. Oswald indicated that he wanted Attorney John Abt of New York City to defend him. Abt had been recommended to Oswald by Prof. Chuck Webster sometime after Oswald shot his mouth off to the press that he wanted legal help, causing a mini panic among my men. It seemed only right that we offer the little commie the legal counsel for the communist party. If that failed his second choice would have been a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, but shucks, we told those dicks that there was "nothing to see here, boys" and they wandered off. Oswald seemed well informed of his rights and he never stopped demanding them, but we fixed that sure enough! Attorney Louis Nichols left completely satisfied that Oswald had not been denied counsel and that his civil rights were not being violated. Yes, that's right. I'm saying that a lawyer with zero criminal law or civil rights casework experience was who we let see Oswald to help convince the world Oswald was not being robbed of any rights. Nichols was a good ol' boy f'sure. Did a good job for us.
Yep Greg,

This is far more accurate than any official document on the matter. It's a disgrace. What they did to this poor bloke is atrocious. My hope is one day in the near future we can show the rest of the sheep how this innocent man was framed by the Texas Good Ol' boys and co.

Henry Wade is to be included in this list, he was a complete asshole and had ties with Hoover and the FBI.

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Re: Send Lawyers Guns & Money Pt2

Post by greg parker on Sun 05 Feb 2017, 1:32 pm

Mick Purdy wrote:
greg parker wrote:Bart, this is more accurate:

By mid-evening Saturday I was concerned that every attempt be made to convince the media that Oswald's civil rights were not being violated. I escorted Louis Nichols, president of the Dallas Bar Association, into the jail to confer with the prisoner. even though the same was not done for Civil Liberties lawyers the previous night. Oswald at that time spurned an offer by the Dallas Bar Association for legal assistance. Not surprising really because what Oswald needed was the Crininal Bar Association - not the Civil Bar! But Mr. Nichols did discuss Oswald's right for legal council with him. Oswald indicated that he wanted Attorney John Abt of New York City to defend him. Abt had been recommended to Oswald by Prof. Chuck Webster sometime after Oswald shot his mouth off to the press that he wanted legal help, causing a mini panic among my men. It seemed only right that we offer the little commie the legal counsel for the communist party. If that failed his second choice would have been a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, but shucks, we told those dicks that there was "nothing to see here, boys" and they wandered off. Oswald seemed well informed of his rights and he never stopped demanding them, but we fixed that sure enough! Attorney Louis Nichols left completely satisfied that Oswald had not been denied counsel and that his civil rights were not being violated. Yes, that's right. I'm saying that a lawyer with zero criminal law or civil rights casework experience was who we let see Oswald to help convince the world Oswald was not being robbed of any rights. Nichols was a good ol' boy f'sure. Did a good job for us.
Yep Greg,

This is far more accurate than any official document on the matter. It's a disgrace. What they did to this poor bloke is atrocious. My hope is one day in the near future we can show the rest of the sheep how this innocent man was framed by the Texas Good Ol' boys and co.

Henry Wade is to be included in this list, he was a complete asshole and had ties with Hoover and the FBI.
We have to get those films. It is probably the only way we are going to cause a media breakout with this and all esle we have on the back of it.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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