Reality Checks

First topic message reminder :

https://www.tracesofwar.com/articles/4916/Skorzeny-Otto.htm wrote:Odessa must therefore be seen as an all encompassing description of various regional groups, rather than as one entity with a clearly defined program. The real purpose of these various organizations like Odessa, the Spinne and Stille Hilfe (silent aid) was not the establishment of a Nazi international movement but rendering aid and support to evade arrest and to have the necessary means at hand in order to survive. It entailed things like forging identity papers, providing shelter and assistance to get members across borders. There may have been of course international meetings of former members of the SS and SD with impossibly far reaching ambitions. Whatever it is, as is often the case with myths, in the long run they tend to start leading their own lives. For instance in the 50s, journalistic concoctions made the Spandau prisoners go crazy. According to rumors at the time, Skorzeny would have attempted to liberate the prisoners in Spandau using two helicopters and a hundred men. At the same time, a coup would take place and a new government installed, headed by Karl Dönitz (Bio Dönitz). The danger posed by these clandestine organizations of former SS members is rather exaggerated. It may well be Allied intelligence services may have considered them for years as a potential nucleus of a rebirth of Nazism, seen from the paranoid spirit at the time.

----

Apart from misplaced romantics of war, it can be argued that Skorzeny has evolved into an icon of irregular warfare from which lessons have been drawn for the post war period also. The importance of a man like Skorzeny lies in the political-military powers of invention on the battlefield casting doubt on the conventional military way of thinking. However, Skorzeny remains a dark figure of whom it cannot be determined what to put on his record and what not. There is nothing else to do than add question marks and annotations to parts of some conspiracy theories.

https://warriormaven.com/history/nazi-commando-otto-skorzeny-continued-his-life-of-intrigue-after-the-war-1 wrote:With so many ex-Nazis living in Spain, Skorzeny tried to find employment with them. His American handler wrote reports of the former commando trying to work with aircraft designer Willi Messerschmitt and steel tycoon Otto Wolff, but little happened.

He kept talking about his plan to reform the German army to almost anyone who would listen. Despite his special forces experience, Skorzeny couldn’t keep his mouth shut. He spoke of preparing 200,000 men to defend Germany from the Soviets and claimed the Americans backed his efforts. The CIA knew of the plan but worried about a reformation of the Third Reich and provided nothing.

-----

Through the 1950s Skorzeny remained involved with right wing organizations and often worked with other S.S. veterans, but his reputation as the mastermind of a secret Nazi society was exaggerated. He took a job as an “import-export manager” in Spain and traveled widely, including visits to Egypt and Argentina. Rumors he slept with Eva Peron proved false. She died two years before he ever set foot there.

In Egypt he secretly tried to sell arms and become a military advisor to Gamal Abdel Nasser, but again little came of it. His presence in Cairo caused a stir just the same and even caused British intelligence to worry he was training Egyptian paratroopers to seize the Suez Canal. His only real successes during this time came with his alleged cover story — he got contracts signed on several concrete and steel sales. This brought in some $260,000 over the next several years, equivalent to over $2 million today.

By the 1960s the aging Skorzeny continued to dabble in arms sales, increasing his fortune. His reputation meant his name circulated wherever intrigue occurred, such as during the kidnapping of Adolph Eichmann. He met with Israeli agents during the 1960s, but as with so much about Skorzeny, we know few details.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/343438616.pdf wrote:All mentioned aspects offer evidence, that Skorzeny’s narrative and his conduct of Unternehmen Eiche may be exaggerated. But, NS-propaganda made him to the recognizable commando and therefore, this section will also focus on the presentation of Unternehmen Eiche. The propaganda about Skorzeny was not preplanned, but fitted perfectly into the narrative, which was needed at the time.  The existing German military capability to conduct these types of operations and the still existing bravery should be shown to German citizens and Germany’s opponents. Also, the SS-member, Otto Skorzeny was depicted and still perceived as the ideal German soldier, who fights although circumstances may be difficult. Goebbels himself stated in his diary, that he wanted to eradicate varying narratives about Mussolini’s liberation, a decision that continues to influence how many perceive Otto Skorzeny’s role during Unternehmen Eiche.


These details reveal that Skorzeny was unable to plan and conduct a mission with special paratrooper equipment like gliders at Gran Sasso because of his lack of experience and knowledge about these issues. Furthermore, his men were also incapable of conducting this mission alone. Skorzeny never commanded an engaged unit in Italy except z.b.V. Friedenthal, but cooperated and supported with those, which were tasked. Nevertheless, he was there at Gran Sasso and did play a role in the bloodless rescue of Mussolini and therefore, Skorzeny was used strategically by NS-propaganda to demonstrate German military strength and to inspire the German peoples’ belief in their nation’s victory.

Skorzeny was the archetypal cartoon Nazi villian - a perfect foil for a Dudley Doorite type character. 

He was in the right places and had the right look and personality to be elevated in stature and heroics for propaganda purposes.  He would spend the rest of his life parlaying the legends created about him, into a comfortable and intersting existence. Today, he would have made a great travel vlogger. 

Unfortunately, as with the asssassination, gaps in knowledge regarding Skorzeny get filled with more legend-building - and it was only a matter of time before that ever-growing legend nudged its way into assassination lore.

What a fucking clusterfuck. 

Where's Dudley Doorite when you really need him?

That is the forum that locked and unpinned the very popular Prayer Man thread on some flimsy excuse but allows this datebook nonsense to carry on unimpeded. That alone says it all.

AUTHOR'S NOTE: I,  ROBERT WARD MONTENEGRO,  would like to apologise for persistently repeating proveable falsehoods,  ( at the very least) for my totally transparent attempts to help prop up a fraudulent datebook,  and,  once again parading my sophomoric one dimensional understanding of a highly complex situation. *

Along with the datebook ( if it isn't fake why the fuck are the leading proponents seemingly doing everything they can to give the impression that they are party to a blatant scam?) this Is what REALLY fucking pisses me off. Monte, using one of Fezzos favourite tricks,  appending a few documents, or providing name, rank and  potted history of every " prime suspect/ conspirator "to lend his disconnected ramblings a little gravitas, once again is passing off,  or at least attempting to,  information he has either ( wilfully or not) misinterpreted or misunderstood. Revealing,  yet again he lacks the requisite knowledge,  especially regarding the labyrinthine psuedo Darwinian jungle of the various Police/ External/ Internal security/ intelligence gathering/ secret police apparatus. 

Both it's ever evolving structure and the way they actually operated. I'm only being slightly facetious when I say it appears Popeye Bob has images of Herr Flick from Hi Di Hi , dancing through his imagination 

Yet again Montenegro underlines his basic lack of knowledge. Here is a guy who has obviously gorged himself on YouTube " documentaries " and revisionist  bullshit - incidentally Conjuring Hitler,  an oft quoted pillar of the revisionist movement, is mostly cack.And offensive  cack, it doesn't just ignore the multiplicity of sometimes diametrically opposed factions/ factors,  the contemporary socio political climate in the dying days of the ill fated Weimar republic,  those infinitely blurred shades of grey,  instead the author ( a rather controversial Italian academic) choses to obliterate those delicate,  often symbiotic shades, choosing instead to transform Hitler's rise to power into an overtly simplistic travesty. Vandalising the actual history with a pen ,he wielded with all the subtleties and aplomb of one of Harold Godwinson's housecarls double headed axes, in an effort to dumb down simplify the entire subject,  creating  the sort of ridiculously simplistic scenario so beloved of your self  respecting  conspiracy theorist, replete with definite religious undercurrents ( all powerful svengali figures with almost supernatural powers,  able to manipulate president, kings, prime ministers, bending the fate of nations at the whim of his fellow demigods) it was Montague Norman,  chairman of the Bank of England wot dunnit doncha  know! ,no doubt working in tandem with the Dulles brothers and the giant owl from Bohemian Grove- who clearly lacks any deep understanding of the wider Nazi system. 

After the briefest,  most superficial read throughs,  without consulting my books/ papers etc I can see he's invented himself a phantasmal SS unit,  totally mangled the structure of the RSHA apparatus,  and now he's making fanciful claims about the Ostministrum, and don't get me started on some of his other , more outlandish claims 

Serious question for Mr Brancato,  if he happens to read these words: could you please elaborate?, explaining in detail why you found Mr Montenegros  discoveries " explosive "? Ive always respected you,  as one of the more level headed, clear thinking commentators. Until you mention a certain 4 letter word. It's gone way beyond a mere pet theory,  becoming a virtual obsession. Your desperation to pin the assassination on the Nazis/ right wing  has completely distorted your perception and sense of perspective,  while blinding you to the utter paucity of solid evidence. From Paul Trejo to the datebookers,  isn't exactly what I would consider progress. 

Bravo Tom, you totally nailed it. Articulating the major discrepancies, without lowering yourself and resorting to Fezzos childish tantrums and doing so in such a way it leaves the datebookers with absolutely zero wiggle room

Credit where credit is due,  Jim DiE stepped up to the plate. Maybe it's finally starting to dawn on him, maybe he realises the type of " research " Fezzo represents,  not to mention his staggering immaturity and inability to structure a logical argument,  is a monumental liability. 

To put it INCREDIBLY mildly 

He's become an absolute embarrassment , not to mention a PR disaster just waiting to happen 

WTF is the point of these " graphics "? What exactly are they supposed to prove? In reality they look like something from Imagination Day down at Langley kindergarten. 

The creator is obviously an avid disciple of the Fezzian School of Abstract Gibberish. Whoever he is he's managed to give a whole new meaning to " Octopussy "

I wonder if he managed to persuade the octopus of troof himself,  Peter Lemkin,  to pose for him in his seedy Prague apartment? 

Anyone can draw a nice little picture,  with lots of nice spooky names and lots of nice squiggly lines, " connecting " them

( Pedant's corner: I may have been a trifle more impressed if the chap actually managed to spell copyrighted correctly)

Lord Gordo and his merry men ( with Ladye Kathy as Maid Marian,  no prizes for guessing who is the 13 inch headed equivalent of Friar Tuck,  no, John Butler,  for the love of God and in the name of common decency,  I'm NOT  talking about Tiar Fuck,  the time you tried , via the medium of interpretive dance and ritual copulation,  to prove the shadow of the limo tyre had been surreptitiously altered,  thank Armstrong poor old Jack White wasn't alive to see his life's work being so brutally desecrated ) need to take a serious reappraisal. Lord Gordo's laissez faire attitude,  combined with Professor Sanford's unsuitabliity ( mostly,  but not exclusively due to his overwhelming bias)has turned the place into a cross between a hustlers paradise and a troll's pulpit. 

Some fucking Education Forum,  huh? A virtual 24 hour infomercial for a book based on a fake datebook,  followed by,  as Jonathan so aptly describes as , " a revolving door of MAGA trolls"

Jim DiE was spot on. 

It IS a fucking outrage,  Honest Les and Popeye Bob,  starting thread after thread , with the sole purpose of trying to punt a book, based on a fake datebook. A blitzkrieg of utter shite 

How can anyone,  who possesses a shred of integrity,  give Ms Sharp and her cohorts " a pass"? If she doesn't want to feel " attacked " she shouldn't have agreed to act as the frontperson for a highly HIGHLY dubious project. Instead of trying to cast her as a poor unfairly vilified victim ( incidentally I didn't see anything remotely resembling " attacks " , all I saw were people asking perfectly reasonable questions,  retaining their dignity while not resorting to Fezzo,  and occasionally Mr Montenegros scurrilous tactics,  ain't selective outrage grand?) she should cut out the shuck n jive bluster,  do the decent thing,  show some integrity and respect and answer the inquiries in a clear,  unambiguous and transparent manner 

I don't understand what the problem is? Why the venomous pushback? Why the ever changing excuses and all the nebulous cloak and dagger shenanigans?

Is the JFK assassination somehow different? Worthy of less respect and due diligence? 

In any other situation,  to adopt Fezzian terminology,  a full and proper scientific analysis would have been performed AS A MATTER OF COURSE 

To see Fezzo yapping on about the Z film and the HSCA , for Christs sake, filled me with a sense of utter despair. 

There's no such thing as Conspiracy Research,  there's proper historical research,  or there's dilletante hobbyism. When conspiracy is trotted out as an excuse to cut corners,  or a reason to examine the evidence keeping one eye firmly shut,  or any one of the multiplicity of other fallacies,  half  assed non sequiturs,  or pie in the sky wishful thinking habitually employed,  and passed off as research..

" A panel of independent experts " for fucks sake...

Then I think it's time to take a serious reappraisal.

Adherence to the Fezzo the Fez/ H and L  school of disembodied research has degenerated into a tragic farce,  or a farcical tragedy. No progress, no real desire for progress,  instead there's been a vaguely sinister distillation of the cult mentality. A stark denial of reality and a retranche into a stubborn fundamentalist mindset 

As far as I can see, regarding Skorzeny,  Lafitte and the assassination,  it's a chicken and egg situation. 

The claims are intimately connected, not forgetting Major Ganis and his " papers"

Until and unless the datebook is examined by independent scientifically credentialed experts,  and the results are revealed. With transparency and the appropriate falsifiable data,  I think there should be a moratorium,  regarding discussion of Coup in Dallas 

Fundamentally the book stands or falls on the veracity of the datebook. 

To claim otherwise is either extremely disingenuous or a symptom of wishful thinking

* Meant as a joke.  Honest guv,  I'm not a right wing activist/ provocateur/ COINTELPRO infiltrator,  sent by a high level facilitator to ridicule and/ or derail such crucially important research. 

If I was, I'd be joining the huge queues outside the Langley labour exchange. " SORRY NO VACANCIES FOR COINTELPRO AGENTS OR RIGHT WING AGITATORS/ PROVOCATEURS "

In fact,  along with Brian's social secretary and Dick Gilbrides hygienist, online provocateurs for the Education Forum are the job equivalent of the Dodo and the Appalachian giant baboon. 

I.E. Completely extinct. 

Over the years, Fezzo and co have been far too successful , making utter pricks of themselves while destroying the credibility of serious assassination research,  making such hypothetical provocateurs obsolete. 

Hypothetically speaking.

Thanks to Mr. Campbell.

Fair use. 

a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner

Fair use would apply - if indeed this shit could be copyrighted. And I believe it could be - if and when they admit is is fiction.

I believe Leslie is trying to suggest it is copyrightable on two counts - first that it is based partly on privately-held data (the datebook) and secondly, that it is represented in a created chart. 

As @AllenLowe tried to tell her, she is singing out of tune from the wrong orifice again. 
 

Charts, graphs, and tables are not subject to copyright protection because they do not meet the first
requirement for copyright protection, that is, they are not “original works of authorship,” under the
definitions in the Act.6

 At first glance, this probably doesn't make much sense; if a researcher runs a
series of experiments and collects a data set, isn't that original, and aren't they the author of it? In a
sense, yes, but in the sense that's important for copyright, no. Facts and data aren't considered original
works of authorship because they are not “created” so much as they are “discovered.” For example, if
a scientist takes temperature readings at various locations over a period of years, she isn't “creating” the data, she's recording the data. If she keeps a log describing how she feels every day, and how the
sunrise looks at the testing station, that's original, creative, authorship. Recording natural phenomena
is not.

Furthermore, representations of data are also not protectable. Rereading section 102(b) with a
particular emphasis on the second half reveals this, as it reads: “In no case does copyright protection for
an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation,
concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained,
illustrated, or embodied in such work.”7
 
Essentially, that means that a graph , chart, or table that expresses data is treated the same as the underlying data. The courts have been clear as to the practical implications of this statement and the broader principles that it informs. For example, they have ruled that a digital schematic of an automobile was not sufficiently creative to merit copyright protection,8 that when certain topics are essential to expressing an idea they are not protectable,9 and that when there are only a few possible ways to express an idea, they are not subject to copyright protection.10

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/83329/copyrightability_of_tables_charts_and_graphs.pdf

So until she admits it is fiction, she can scream all she wants that it is under copyright and threaten to sue. I for one would love to see her try.

I might play around with it myself just for kicks.

Still no intervention by the EF mods. Guess they are happy to have all this nonsense promoted  on their forum. If so the EF is on a path to self destruction.

les wrote:Hank was hardly a victim; he was an astute, experienced, long-term observer of human nature, particularly that of "the research community."

Well, credit where due. He certainly knew there were a lot of potential marks in the "community" willing to suspend disbelief.

Greg makes a very good point. Using his insider knowledge and his astute/ cynical ( delete where appropriate) understanding of the particular tastes,  proclivities,  preferences, and,  most crucially perhaps,  the failures/ limitations ( do NOT delete) and character weaknesses of your average member of the conspiracy herd, he would be able to fashion a narrative custom made to appeal to the typical arch conspiracists mentality. 

And, surprise, surprise,  isn't that what Coup in Dallas is?

The Modern Conspiracy Quartet's Greatest Hits? Interspersed with doleful intonations from the ultimate unreliable narrator,  dutifully repeating snippets of the almost certainly counterfeit datebook , tying the loose ends up , to make a neat commercially attractive package ( enter various John Butler related innuendos here)

The datebook/ Coup in Dallas could almost have been designed by an AI conspirabot,  deep in the bowels of Langley's labyrinthine Get Fez department. ( the biggest disinformation operation since the halcyon days of Killery,  Bill and the transgender Mooslim subversives, Hussein aka Barack and Abdullah aka Michelle Obama) , to appeal to the widest possible cross section of conspiracy theorists,  with a potentially lucrative interface with the Nazi " memorabilia " brigade and the murky hinterlands beyond. 

Honest Les is making a big deal about the non disclosure agreements,  which  prevent anyone associated with the,  ahem,  project,  commenting until the soft cover version has been published. 

To me this seems highly dodgy,  non disclosure agreements for a book that's been on the market for at least a good couple of years. What about the punters who forked out for the hardcover?

As for attempting to invoke copyright laws for something that resembles the conspiracy homework of a 40 year old homeschooled prodigy? 

No comment. 

After Greg D, Tom and Jonathan attempted to talk some sense into the woolly minded conspiracy at any cost brigade,  now Ms Sharp has the opportunity to avoid dealing with Jeremy Bs characteristically withering cross examination.

Armstrong have mercy on her. 

Going by her recent efforts and Jeremy's past record of breaking more doppelganged hearts than Handsome HARVEY,  the doppelganged Don Juan,  a fate worse than Baggins awaits her....

Vinny makes a very valid point,  as did Jim DiE: the moderators are quick enough to act when their own delicate sensibilities have been offended,  but apparently they have absolutely no problems with their precious forum being turned into a de facto market stall,  flogging a book based on an extremely fucking dubious datebook...

alex_wilson wrote:
After Greg D, Tom and Jonathan attempted to talk some sense into the woolly minded conspiracy at any cost brigade,  now Ms Sharp has the opportunity to avoid dealing with Jeremy Bs characteristically withering cross examination.

Armstrong have mercy on her. 

Going by her recent efforts and Jeremy's past record of breaking more doppelganged hearts than Handsome HARVEY,  the doppelganged Don Juan,  a fate worse than Baggins awaits her....

Alex, I'm seriously considering making t-shirts emblazoned with "Armstrong Have Mercy!" on the front and "Rifle In Building" scrawled on the back. Maybe we could gift them as VIP goodie-bag upgrades at Judyth Baker's next JFK fiction seminar?

JonathanCohen wrote:

alex_wilson wrote:
After Greg D, Tom and Jonathan attempted to talk some sense into the woolly minded conspiracy at any cost brigade,  now Ms Sharp has the opportunity to avoid dealing with Jeremy Bs characteristically withering cross examination.

Armstrong have mercy on her. 

Going by her recent efforts and Jeremy's past record of breaking more doppelganged hearts than Handsome HARVEY,  the doppelganged Don Juan,  a fate worse than Baggins awaits her....

Alex, I'm seriously considering making t-shirts emblazoned with "Armstrong Have Mercy!" on the front and "Rifle In Building" scrawled on the back. Maybe we could gift them as VIP goodie-bag upgrades at Judyth Baker's next JFK fiction seminar?

I want one!!!

barto wrote:Jeremy B states at EF 
'No doubt she's aware of the harm that might be caused to JFK assassination research if her theory gets publicity in the media, only for the datebook then to be exposed as a fake.'


The damage has already been done and it will be fully blown toxic come the 60th.


Oh and look at Albarelli's books reviews at Amazon and check out the 1-2 star reviews!
A pattern has emerged.

And of course the Coup Crew is scheduling their paperback release around the 60th, which I’m sure is driving the fake datebook/Nazi bingo marketing blitz. 

Someone also just bumped the main Coup in Dallas thread ffs. 

Coup rhymes with Poo. Poo = Poo Poo. Poo Poo = Nazi. Checkmate, Nazis killed JFK

Great idea Jonathan,  although I wouldn't go giving Juddufki any more ideas. 

My apologies. Of course,  what I meant to write was; I wouldn't go refreshing Judyth's memory. 

Knowing Juddufki I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if she pops up on Twitter,  or wherever,  " MY FRIENDS IVE JUST REMEMBERED LEE TALKING ABOUT A LAFITTE. I THOUGHT HE WAS JUST PAYING ME ANOTHER COMPLIMENT ( snuffles crudely) HE ALWAYS USED TO SAY HOW FIT I LOOKED. IN FACT IT WAS ONE OF " HIS THINGS " LIKE REMOVING MY BRA WITH A LEFT HANDED MONKEY WRENCH IN THE BACK OF ONE OF ADRIAN ALBA'S VANS. LOVE YOU ALL GOD BLESS j xxxxx"

Since Juddufki is a vocal  H and L heretic,  and Armstrong is a noted anti Juddufkist,  although Fezzo suspects LEE might have been having an affair with Judyth  in New Orleans in 1962, while HARVEY was still in the USSR ( according to the memories of a certain Anna Lewis. Authentication? Schmentication)
It might be a great opportunity to bring the warring camps together. 

For the sake of unity. And truth 

After all Judyth's memories matter just as much as Lafitte's datebook..

Mistakes yet to be admitted (without yet even getting into the historical facts of the Nazi underground)

1. the meaning of the Latin word DUUM
2. what can and can't be subjected to copyright
3. that Greg nailed a slip-up that showed fakery
4. Oswald going to Mexico City
5. Oswald having no valid alibi
6. Soutre being in Dallas
--------------------
Things Ms. Sharp can't or won't explain

Why anyone would keep such a messy and cryptic record.

Why the widow wanted to publish the parts relevant to the assassination as if his participation  was a proud achievement. Particularly why she would also be happy for Hank to make money from it and not have any family benefit.

If the production of a documentary series is still on the drawing board

Who the production company is and where it is based (both England and Australia have been mentioned)

Why any NDA would still be relevant if production is now off the table.

Why she believes a datebook and subsequent book based on that datebook should unite any group given the sad history of fake diaries and memoirs across the broad spectrum of history, but in particular, the fake witnesses and documents that have permeated this particular slice of history. This is especially so given her reluctance to be clear, concise and forthright regarding having it properly forensically examined for authenticity.

Why she believes a cart-before-the-horse approach - that is, treating the entries as legitimate prior to authentication for the purpose of using them in word/name association games replete with graphs, is in any way, a sensible and justifiable way forward.  The datebook itself seems designed for those very word association games.

GP:  Mistakes yet to be admitted (without yet even getting into the historical facts of the Nazi underground)

1. the meaning of the Latin word DUUM
2. what can and can't be subjected to copyright
3. that Greg nailed a slip-up that showed fakery
4. Oswald going to Mexico City
5. Oswald having no valid alibi
6. Soutre being in Dallas
 
RO:  I can drink to the first five, but why no Souetre in Dallas?  Help me out here.
 
To recap, I concluded that the newspaper story that led the French to investigate the possibility that he was in Dallas was most likely fabricated from a phone call the reporter had with Michel Roux about the murder.  He didn't name the shooter in the article but coughed it up when the police asked.  He said it was Roux, but the description he gave matched Souetre, which caused the French to surmise it was Souetre using Roux as an alias. 
 
It was easy for the reporter to concoct a story that the shooter, whoever it was, was flown out of Dallas that weekend and he had subsequently encountered him in a drunken stupor (the story teller, not the reporter) revealing the details.  Except it took him almost a full month to publish what was a spectacular, possibly reputation making, story.  It must have burned a hole in his pocket.  
 

In any case, none of this means that Souetre wasn't there.  How did you reach the conclusion he wasn't?

Add on Leslie Sharp’s real name is NOT Leslie Sharp!

Roger Odisio wrote:GP:  Mistakes yet to be admitted (without yet even getting into the historical facts of the Nazi underground)

1. the meaning of the Latin word DUUM
2. what can and can't be subjected to copyright
3. that Greg nailed a slip-up that showed fakery
4. Oswald going to Mexico City
5. Oswald having no valid alibi
6. Soutre being in Dallas
 
RO:  I can drink to the first five, but why no Souetre in Dallas?  Help me out here.
 
To recap, I concluded that the newspaper story that led the French to investigate the possibility that he was in Dallas was most likely fabricated from a phone call the reporter had with Michel Roux about the murder.  He didn't name the shooter in the article but coughed it up when the police asked.  He said it was Roux, but the description he gave matched Souetre, which caused the French to surmise it was Souetre using Roux as an alias. 
 
It was easy for the reporter to concoct a story that the shooter, whoever it was, was flown out of Dallas that weekend and he had subsequently encountered him in a drunken stupor (the story teller, not the reporter) revealing the details.  Except it took him almost a full month to publish what was a spectacular, possibly reputation making, story.  It must have burned a hole in his pocket.  
 

In any case, none of this means that Souetre wasn't there.  How did you reach the conclusion he wasn't?

Roger, I never said he wasn't there. I said it is a mistake to claim he was. She is using the datebook as proof without first authenticating it - and even  if authentic, Lafitte could still have made it up. 

The previous evidence is not even worthy of being put at the bottom of the budgie cage.

In the land of make believe - take the first rainbow on the left after whispering the magic word into the ear of the goateed Cerberus ,  who guards the low door in the wall ( hint; the magic word starts with Pay and ends in Pal)- it seems even fraudulent datebooks have doppelgangers..

Lafitte Datebook 2- The Return of the Mutant Datebook aka Pierre's Revenge 

The Lafitte Financial Ledger..

Armstrong have mercy on us all. 

Despite all the pratfalls and the slapstick fun and games with Fat Nazi Bingo posse,  there are some worrying undertones that shouldn't be ignored. 

In fact they should be countered at every possible opportunity. 

Yet again,   blatant falsehoods and fanciful conspiracy whimsy are being touted as historical facts. 

Ive reached the conclusion Ms Sharp and her munchkins are not serious reputable researchers/ historians 

Far from it

Instead of admitting errors,  openly and honestly,  before setting out to rectify them; instead of looking to contribute to deeper more profound and ( crucially) nuanced understanding of the assassination milieu and the climate that gave it life, life unto death,  they are only interested in peddling their cartoonish fantasy. 

A combination of a Kid's Puzzle book, various telephone directories circa 1950- 1963, Nancy Drew and the Fat Nazi,  not forgetting a hefty dose of cross eyed revisionist malarkey. 

Alias Lesley is following the age old modus operandi of the purveyors of highly dubious wares,  she just ignores reasonable questions and legitimate criticism. 

Preferring instead to remain safe in her enchanted home in the clouds. 

Playing Join the Dots and good old Nazi Conspiracy Bingo

I wonder what their agenda really is? Is it spreading disinformation? Perhaps to derail the 60th anniversary. Or is it just money or fame?

In the spirit of random games of chance...

Here is a random Facebook profile
https://www.facebook.com/linda.ohara.737

Wow, man, that's super far out freaky...

I was shuffling through tracks from the early Beatles solo albums and guess what popped up?

Macca's " The Lovely Linda " followed by George's " All Things Must Pass " featuring background vocals by the George O Hara Smith Singers...

Do you think the universe is trying to send us a message ? Or maybe OP Mock operatives have been surreptitiously fucking with my CD collection 

Or maybe it's a HUGE FUCKING CONSPIRACY

linda o'hara aka leslie sharp wrote:It's my understanding that Lafitte was not an official "agent."  He was a 'special employee' off and on of several three letter agencies including CIA, FBN, INS and FBI.

Hank's intro lays out a little more specific detail about the Lafitte collection he had access to.

The problems here are 

1. In 1977, Lafitte denied ever "knowingly" working for the CIA. 

2. A "special employee" is a fancy title for an investigator/informant/infiltrator/actor.

His own version - ie never "knowingly" working for the CIA suggests something lower down the pecking order - a floater - someone who is used for low level work, sometimes wittingly and sometimes unwittingly. That is the most likely job description of Oswald.

greg_parker wrote:

linda o'hara aka leslie sharp wrote:It's my understanding that Lafitte was not an official "agent."  He was a 'special employee' off and on of several three letter agencies including CIA, FBN, INS and FBI.

Hank's intro lays out a little more specific detail about the Lafitte collection he had access to.

The problems here are 

1. In 1977, Lafitte denied ever "knowingly" working for the CIA. 

2. A "special employee" is a fancy title for an investigator/informant/infiltrator/actor.

His own version - ie never "knowingly" working for the CIA suggests something lower down the pecking order - a floater - someone who is used for low level work, sometimes wittingly and sometimes unwittingly. That is the most likely job description of Oswald.

Linda's post above btw, was in reply to Ron Bulman who said he had read that "CIA agents" were not to keep datebooks.

Linda has tried to get around this by claiming "well, he wasn't an agent. He was a "special employee."

To which I say "big whoopty-doo".

The employment status is not the point. The point is that no one paid by the CIA is authorized to keep classified information. Not in a diary. Not in a notebook. Not on a post-it note. 

Lafitte, according to Ms O'Hara and others, did keep information that sounds like it should have been classified. 

Or the whole story is a load of shit.

Here is a little story about an ex-CIA employee who kept a datebook full of handwritten classified information.

“The datebook contained handwritten information pertaining to, but not limited to, operational notes from asset meetings, operational meeting locations, operational phone numbers, true names of assets, and covert facilities,” FBI special agent Kellie O’Brien said in an affidavit submitted Saturday to a federal magistrate judge in Alexandria, Virginia. “The address book contained true names and phone numbers of assets and covert CIA employees, as well as the addresses of CIA facilities.”
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/16/cia-espionage-arrest-342115

I guess Lafitte was pretty smart in having bad handwriting, and using vague language mixed in with crypto malarkey. It means that while some may interpret it as the plotting of an assassination of a sitting president, others could equally interpret it 100 different other ways.

I say it represents a fever-dream after licking a cane toad on planet Drongo. Prove me wrong. 

DUUM above interpretations, I prefer mine.

Roger Odisio wrote:GP:  His own version - ie never "knowingly" working for the CIA suggests something lower down the pecking order - a floater - someone who is used for low level work, sometimes wittingly and sometimes unwittingly. That is the most likely job description of Oswald.

RO:  Except in this case Oswald was given a very important job--patsy on whom the murder of a popular sitting president can be pinned.  If he screwed up, reputations and the lives of the perps were at risk.

In your study of Oswald did you reach any conclusion about why he was chosen?  I know there were other assassinations planned then scrapped with other patsies.  But why Oswald?

Oswald was not a witting patsy (if that was your suggestion?)

He was chosen in the same way anyone is chosen for an important job - his resume, background and psychosocial profile.

I will just add that he was known to Fred Korth from the 1940s, that Korth had been Asst. Sec to the Army for Manpower, having been sworn in during May, 1952, just prior to Lee and Marguerite moving to New York.

He remained a consultant to that position for 10 years after leaving it and would have had knowledge of the work done by Sylvia Hoke and her team of psychologists at Korth's Almer Mata - George Washington University. That work involved how to recruit the right people for the FICON maintenance crews - with the final report handed in during September 1956 - just prior to Lee Oswald joining the marines and ending up working in proximity to the FICON replacement - the U2 program. 

Post-assassination, Marguerite told investigator Joe Cooper that she believed Korth had helped Lee get his early out from the Marines.

Korth's wife was a cousin to both Roy Truly and Robert Sansom, whose legal office was where Oswald got his Minsk factory manuscript typed. 

Korth btw, had sided with the Hawks during the CMC - advocating first strike action.

roger o at the ed forum wrote:I wonder if you could recount your take on Hosty's note which referred to Oswald as saying he "went outside to watch p parade"  after eating lunch. Seems straight forward.  Even Australians could understand it.  It's a crucial piece of evidence.  Am I missing something?

Linda replied with her usual attempt at a switch and bait and throws in Ralph Cinque as an attemped smear.

Does Bart reproduce Hosty's note?  When was Hosty's note written?  When was it made public?  I need to catch up here.

I'm trying to recall: I think the debate was related to architectural terms.

Have you posted the most current iteration of an image(s) of Prayer Man on EF recently?  If so, can you point me to the thread?  Ralph Cinque has posted photos on Facebook in the past few days.

Firstly though Rog, a big LOL for your "even Australians could understand it".

That laugh aside, it should be noted that Sean Murphy is Irish, Bart Is British, and Stan Dane (author of the original book on Murphy's work) is American. 

The architectural term this deceptive poster is referring to is "vestibule".

It was the term used by Oswald in describing where he was when encountered by Truly and a cop (who was Kaminski, not Baker). It was the area just inside the front entrance.

From Holmes' testimony

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Front entrance, which is both where Truly and Kaminski were stationed vetting people to leave and where vestibules are traditionally located.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217812#relPageId=435&search=truly_and%20%20kaminski

But Truly, the FBI and later the WC conspired to claim that the "vestibule" was actually just outside the 2nd floor lunchroom and that what Oswald referred to was thereafter called a "lobby" - another acceptable name for that space near the front entrance. But no more correct than the term used by Oswald. Having a vestibule on an upper is not unheard of - but it is unusual.



I hope she will correct me if I misremember, but I think Linda/Leslie made the claim that in Dallas, front entrance areas are always "lobbies" and that yes, in Dallas a vestibule would be on an upper floor.

Which of course is absolute bullshit. She will make any fucking claim that suits her agenda.

Here is the Dallas police building front entrance:

https://www.boonedam.com/en-au/inspiration/dallas-police-department

"Once a visitor is ready to leave the lobby and exit the building, they pass through another Boon Edam Tourlock 180 that leads to a vestibule with exterior swinging doors. In the event that someone tries to go back into the lobby from the front vestibule area, without going through the security screening room, the Tourlock security revolving door will reject their entry."

Designed and made by an Australian company.

Other Dallas examples:

DALLAS ISD - ORG 385 - MONTESSORI ACADEMY AT ONESIMO HERNANDEZ - RENOVATION.
The scope of this portion of the renovation will include a new secure vestibule with an 81 square foot addition that will connect the existing vestibule to the existing reception area.
https://www.fwhccplanroom.com/jobs/1078/details/dallas-isd-org-385-montessori-academy-at-onesimo-hernandez-renovation

Dallas builders of first floor vestibules and reception areas.
https://thecommondesk.com/office-suites/texas/dallas/deep-ellum/cgb-suite-330/

Btw, why is she allowed to use an alias at the Ed forum. Isn't that against their precious rules?

Or is she allowed as an "author" who needs a venue to peddle her bullshit? After all, that was the original purpose of the forum as set up by Mr. S.